EB 1.1 Suggestions 2

[Maksimus]

ONE BIG CALL FOR HUMANITY - PLEASE!

Originally posted by ''Barbarossa82'' in his ''Gold Mod Collection''. The term “extermination” sounds too cruel, and that was not the case in history

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=90798

''EXTERMINATION AND PUBLIC ORDER
The problem: In pure vanilla, you have the option to "exterminate" a settlement you conquer, and the game tells you how many people will be killed. Because of squalor, culture penalty and distance to capital, extermination can quickly become the rule rather than the exception as your empire grows. This not only makes it hard to roleplay a faction with any degree of humanity, but is quite unhistorical. Organised mass slaughter of the majority of a settlement's population was historically rare. More likely was a situation where a commander would allow his troops to basically run riot, looting, raping, pillaging and generally brutalising the settlement. The difference here is that a lot of the locals would just flee or be turned out of their homes rather than being rounded up, executed and buried in a mass grave as RTW's text and graphics imply.
The solution: Text, the "exterminator" line of traits and graphics have been changed to make it a bit more ambiguous what exactly is happening in the settlement you decide to exterminate. Instead of the option to "exterminate populace", you are now given the option to "suppress populace". The text descriptions, graphics and sounds are now more consistent with the spontaneous depredations of a victorious army set loose by their commander, rather than the 20th-century-style industrialised genocide implied by the original text. Of course if you're a complete git who loves the idea that your troops go around wiping out entire populations, the new text is ambiguous enough to allow you to believe that.''




I really agree on this, can EB team use this feature as on far more real and better solution for the game

AND ONE MORE THING!

I have already posted the BALLISTA solution's here - like add to exp_descr_units.txt 2 times more soldier's and an Officer and SBear and 2 times more ballistas in the unit - then lower the ballista attack by 2 times - and you have unit that LOOK's like a unit and make's sence to COST like HELL!

Please.. EB team comment (I know that some EB member's already answerd the Ballista question but I just want to make sure they did not forhet the answer's

[cmacq]

BALLISTA solution?

[Maksimus]

Yes, so that it would look like this..

;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;;
;;;;;;;;EB Siege;;;;;;;;;;;;;
,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

;343
type generic siege 3span
dictionary generic_siege_3span ; Triaspanai Katapeltai
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 48, 16, 0.85
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
engine scorpion
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 12, 2, scorpion, 350, 30, siege_missile, blade, piercing, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 5000, 1900, 30, 40, 5000
ownership romans_brutii, romans_julii, numidia, macedon, saba, thrace, greek_cities, egypt, carthage, romans_scipii, parthia, seleucid, slave, pontus, armenia, gauls, britons, scythia, germans, dacia, spain

;344
type generic siege 3cubit
dictionary generic_siege_3cubit ; Triakubitai Katapeltai
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 32, 8, 0.85
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
engine catapulta
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 20, 2, ballista, 280, 30, siege_missile, blade, piercing, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, launching
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 9000, 2500, 30, 40, 9000
ownership thrace, greek_cities, macedon, romans_julii, numidia, egypt, spain, romans_brutii, seleucid, saba, slave, carthage

;345
type generic siege 30mina
dictionary generic_siege_30mina ; Triakontaiminai Lithoboloi
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 8, 0.85
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
engine 30Mballista
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 20, 2, boulder, 300, 30, siege_missile, blade, blunt, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, area,
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 15000, 3200, 30, 40, 15000
ownership thrace, greek_cities, macedon, romans_julii, numidia, egypt, spain, romans_brutii, seleucid, saba, slave, carthage

;346
type generic siege 1talent
dictionary generic_siege_1talent ; Monotalanta Lithoboloi
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 4, 0.85
officer ebofficer_hellenic_officer
officer ebofficer_hellenic_standardbearer
engine 1Tballista
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 38, 2, big_boulder, 240, 30, siege_missile, blade, blunt, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, area, launching
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, normal, untrained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 30000, 4500, 30, 40, 30000
ownership thrace, greek_cities, macedon, romans_julii, numidia, egypt, spain, romans_brutii, seleucid, saba, slave, carthage

;347
type roman artillery scorpio
dictionary roman_artillery_scorpio ; Vitruvian Scorpions
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 48, 16, 0.85
officer ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer ebofficer_roman_early_standard
engine scorpion
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 14, 2, scorpion, 380, 30, siege_missile, blade, piercing, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp
stat_pri_armour 1, 6, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 5000, 1900, 30, 40, 5000
ownership seleucid, slave

;348
type roman artillery catapulta
dictionary roman_artillery_catapulta ; Vitruvian catapulta
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 16, 0.85
officer ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer ebofficer_roman_early_standard
engine catapulta
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 1, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 12, 2, ballista, 303, 30, siege_missile, blade, piercing, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, launching
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 9000, 2500, 30, 40, 9000
ownership seleucid, slave

;349
type roman artillery 30mina
dictionary roman_artillery_30mina ; Vitruvian 30 mina stone thrower
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 8, 0.85
officer ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer ebofficer_roman_early_standard
engine 30Mballista
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 32, 2, boulder, 303, 30, siege_missile, blade, blunt, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, area,
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 15000, 3200, 30, 40, 15000
ownership seleucid, slave

;350
type roman artillery 1talent
dictionary roman_artillery_1talent ; Vitruvian 1 talent stone thrower
category siege
class missile
voice_type General_1
soldier greek_artillery_crew, 60, 4, 0.85
officer ebofficer_roman_centurion
officer ebofficer_roman_early_standard
engine 1Tballista
attributes sea_faring
formation 1.5, 1.5, 3, 3, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 8, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, knife, 0 ,0.04
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 42, 2, big_boulder, 270, 30, siege_missile, blade, blunt, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr ap, bp, area, launching
stat_pri_armour 1, 7, 0, flesh
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 0
stat_ground 0, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 7, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 30000, 4500, 30, 40, 30000
ownership seleucid, slave

This is one solution for better look's of siege equipment and for the worth of Money you spend on it, This is one suggestion that add's officer's, more man power and more siege pieces for ballista unit's.. Do, In vice versa method - you are lowering the attack value verses the more amoun't of siege pieces added in EDU. In ancient times, numbers of units very much greater in siege unit's and they had officer's - or you can consider them to be enginerires.. And it would solve prob I have when I have to give 4500 per turn just for couple of peasant's with two siege gun's






Now, this looks like one siege :D

[Centurion Crastinus]

I agree, I think it would be more realistic to rape and pillage a town as oppossed to massacaring it. I usually just enslave the populace.

[The General]

Now that sure is a lot of handlers, most of whom have the perfect opportunity to stand there doing nothing.

[Palasta]

The main problem is, the player is allowed every single time he captured a city, to choose between those three options and of course, most will go for the easy way and send the soldiers in for killing and looting. No severe consequences, a plenty of cash and keeping down the unrest.

The presented "solution", i guess it is only make-up and the effects remain the same. Is the process of capturing a settlement actually moddable or absolutely hardcoded?

EDIT: Sorry for that, i meant "make up", not "make over".

[Darth Stalin]

Well, as a Roman player in my EB campaign at the beginning I preferred to enslave rather than to exterminate, as half of the populace was moved to my own settlements )those with family members as governors), so I could rather well steer the process of growth when I needed my city to grow faster.
Now, as I'm going to conquer larger settlements (and started from Syrakousai), I think that I'll start to loot, pillage and massacre, as I can get much more cash from that...

[anubis88]

that's really a problem for roleplaying... if you conquer a huge city you can forget about just occupying it since it will revolt very soon and kill half of your soldiers.... Again a stupid vanilla thing

[Maksimus]

Now that sure is a lot of handlers, most of whom have the perfect opportunity to stand there doing nothing.

Do you have one idea how many people is needed to position those stones we are launching in the city? No? - Well I don't know either

But it sure is more people than we can add in the EDU (due to the engine)

The point here is that if you loose some soldier's you can still use the equipment, In that way it could be used in battle (as it was used) like in the case in siege's of ancient times.
If you loose some people you have an option tu use just 50% of equipment or 20% - that is closer to nicer look's, historical accuracy, realism and the VALUE of SIEGE that you need to PAY and MAINTAINE

[The General]

Do you have one idea how many people is needed to position those stones we are launching in the city? No? - Well I don't know either

But it sure is more people than we can add in the EDU (due to the engine)

The point here is that if you loose some soldier's you can still use the equipment, In that way it could be used in battle (as it was used) like in the case in siege's of ancient times.
If you loose some people you have an option tu use just 50% of equipment or 20% - that is closer to nicer look's, historical accuracy, realism and the VALUE of SIEGE that you need to PAY and MAINTAINE

While I understand your point, I think the amount of crew was exaggerated.

I doubt there would've been dozens and dozens of people per siege "battery" (~unit) on the campaigns. Some extra members, yes, but doubt that many.

[Pharnakes]

There is a reason why the artiley is so expensive, and that was because they were a logistical nightmare to maitain on campaign, also, the operators were highly skilled individuals, who doutless expected to be shown "appreciation" for their skill.

[Thaatu]

How about changing "enslavement" to something like "mass deportation" that it seems to depict better? I don't know why slaves should be counted amongst the local population... I for one almost never use enslavement, because it doesn't resemble it one bit.

[Maksimus]

The main problem is, the player is allowed every single time he captured a city, to choose between those three options and of course, most will go for the easy way and send the soldiers in for killing and looting. No severe consequences, a plenty of cash and keeping down the unrest.

The presented "solution", i guess it is only a make over and the effects remain the same. Is the process of capturing a settlement actually moddable or absolutely hardcoded?

In RTW vanilla there was a BIG problem in whic you are doomed any way - That no matter how much army and building's (that have positive effect on public order) you have - you will have riot's.. That is very bad for gameplay and even worse for Historic accuracy!

- And yes, if those high level's of riot's per town verses one amount of let as say - 50 years - are so frequent that you are forced to leave the town to rebel's and then take it again by force just to keep it your own - Then yes, you or I just have to Exterminate the population more often and basically all the time in some period's

Even bigger problem is that EB managed to Keep that Vanilla Extermination pace very well - and unfortunately for EB player's - in one very genuine vanilla way

Thera are much more simple solution's to unable the human player to exterminate all the time - Just by rising the public order point's to all building's can solve that and adding some law_bonuse's to academic's building's and wall's for example and barrack's too!

[Maksimus]

How about changing "enslavement" to something like "mass deportation" that it seems to depict better? I don't know why slaves should be counted amongst the local population... I for one almost never use enslavement, because it doesn't resemble it one bit.

I agree - we just have to get an EB member here

I think it could be done.. I am for that change, even in the line meaning of "mass deportation" - one can conclude that it is manly about "enslavement" or "political deportation" - because in Some region's - like if Gonata's take's Athenai, there is really 0,1% of chances he would have ever exterminate the population of thar famous Hellenic city

[NeoSpartan]

Suppress Populance?????????

nah man... people were plundering (which in turn suppressed the population into submission).

I think renaming it to "LOOT and PILLAGE", is better.

[Maksimus]

Suppress Populance?????????
nah man... people were plundering (which in turn suppressed the population into submission).
I think renaming it to "LOOT and PILLAGE", is better.

It really depend's on your personall tought - and what you like

I personally like the word suppression as a noun that is 'more profound' than "LOOT and PILLAGE" - and even that is more true than ''Exterminate'' . In our use of ''suppression'' I refer to the meanings like:

1. forceful prevention: conscious and forceful action to put an end to something, destroy it, or prevent it from becoming known
2. state of constraint: the state of being forcefully restrained or held back

Microsoft® Encarta® 2008. © 1993-2007 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

EB originally planned to change the occupy/enslave/etc, but didn't do it yet. The plan was to make 'enslave' something along the lines of 'displace' or 'exile', as already represented by the 'refugee camps' when you choose 'enslave'. This thread has brought the topic up again internally, though.

Personally, the term 'suppress' seems like turd polish to me since you are eliminating 5/6(?) of the population of the city no matter what it is called.

[Maksimus]

It is polished how ever

That is a global trend

So, will this be done for EB 1.1?


note:Do you know how often NATO or US offical's used the ''collateral'' word to express what we now know as the mass killing's of civilian's in areas after their armies took part in - I wont start on oil/gas/coca war's here - but I will add that the first time ''collateral'' word was used in ''wider'' sence is during NATO 'solo' aggression on my country - and during the war campaign ''only'' 5000 people died on all side's. But in term's of peace 1999-2007 there are more than 14000 dead and missing civilian's from South Province of Serbia under UNMIK administration!

Sorry for this note - it was stronger then me

[Blazing141]

I agree with MAA. Call it what it is. As far as it not being what was actually done, I think the Romans did quite a bit of killing when they wanted to. the player should have all options open.

On another note, speaking of 1.1, I know it will be released when its done, but I wanted to ask if 1.1 was close to the "unite preview" video stage (i.e., imminently about to be released) or if there is still discussions about what the changes are going to be.

thanks for any insight.

[Wolfman]

pretty words for a naturally ugly thing. Suppress=Rape, Pillage etc, Displace= remove from homeland possibly strip culture from Displaced peoples. Enslave them, separate their families etc.


P.S. I guess Extermination and Enslavement is the wrong word for what happened to the jews in the 40's. Since they were removed from their homes to concentration camps and killed. Same with the African in the Trans Atlantic Slave Trade. He was just displaced too huh? Or the Native American, Or the Indian Etc. I must agree with Marcus. Slavery and Extermination are ugly words for an ugly subject and i think its a dishonor to those that experienced such things to try to pretty up what they went through for the modern palate. The Truth is ugly some times.

[Danest]

Weren't the Dacians mass-exterminated? ANd I thought that Caesar exterminated a fair few Gallic towns, but now that I think about it, I'm not sure where I heard this, so... I'll assume it's suspect. If anything, we should just change "exterminate" to "sack" and leave it as is... in large towns, plenty of people seem to survive, and most of the buildings are intact in many cases, so clearly it's not a true extermination.

[Wolfman]

Don't forget what rome did to the city of Carthage during the Third Punic War.

[Centurion Crastinus]

Weren't the Dacians mass-exterminated? ANd I thought that Caesar exterminated a fair few Gallic towns, but now that I think about it, I'm not sure where I heard this, so... I'll assume it's suspect. If anything, we should just change "exterminate" to "sack" and leave it as is... in large towns, plenty of people seem to survive, and most of the buildings are intact in many cases, so clearly it's not a true extermination.

Ceaser did cut the hands off of all the people revolting in the town of Uxellodenum in 51 B.C. at the conclusion of the Gallic War.

[Maksimus]

I really agree with you guys and I can add about 5-10 example's of extermination's in ancient history - Alexander did it as often as he could

But I must say - extermination's were not really a rule.. If EB team could add + 1 option to this that would be extermination's but I am for those option's to be able to ''flow'' only In cases when different cultures gain possession of diferent cultures settlement's - not in all cases

Like - Hellene's did that but not so often in Greece as in Asia, in most cases Hellene's didn't wan't to exterminate Hellene's

[Barbarossa82]

Since we are debating something that was originally included in my mini-mod, I'd like to comment on a few of the things being raised.

The point of the renaming I brought into effect was to make the goings-on within the city ambiguous - in other words, vague enough to suit anything from serious looting up to genuine extermination.

Some of you have cited examples of times in history when genuine extermination did occur. Of course it did - but it was rare compared to the non-genocidal pillaging.

The real problem is that in RTW, one often finds oneself with no practical option but to exterminate, due to extremely low public order. This is historically unrealistic - the Romans did not have to kill 75% of the population of cities they conquered even on the periphery of their empire. The occasions when they did do it (i.e. Carthage) were motivated more by vengeance than by necessity.

If RTW's extermination option were something that the player only had to use through choice, then I'd have no problem keeping it as it is. It's because it needs to be used so often that it ought to have text and graphics corresponding to the tactics that ancient conquerors used routinely (rape and pillage), while still being vague enough to encompass what they did exceptionally (genocide).

And to the guy who brought up "what happened to the jews in the 40s": first of all, I do not appreciate the imputation that by making a modification to a video game, I am somehow trivialising the holocaust. And secondly, the industrialised, mechanised, organised genocide against the Jews perpetrated in German-controlled Europe is precisely the kind of thing that DIDN'T happen in ancient times, because there just wasn't the logistical capacity to do it. The sacking of cities - even where the majority of the population were rounded up and slaughtered - just doesn't compare.

[Leviathan DarklyCute]

"what happened to the jews in the 40s" should not be compared with anything that happened before, it was a genocide for no other reason than racism.

[oudysseos]

Instead of eliminating or sugar-coating the exterminate option, why not make it as unpalatable as possible? I don't know what the game engine limits will allow, but there should be fairly large negatives to go with the cash and easy public order. What if every time you did it your general went catatonic with guilt? Or lost influence? Or something bad.

[The General]

"what happened to the jews in the 40s" should not be compared with anything that happened before, it was a genocide for no other reason than racism.

There had been genocides before and racist-related massacres, but, yes, the Holocaust is a whole another story, because the level of organisation with which it was committed and the scale of it is, and hopefully will remain unparalleled

Instead of eliminating or sugar-coating the exterminate option, why not make it as unpalatable as possible? I don't know what the game engine limits will allow, but there should be fairly large negatives to go with the cash and easy public order. What if every time you did it your general went catatonic with guilt? Or lost influence? Or something bad.

'Restless Sleeper'?

[Wolfman]

I apologize for the Harshness of my words. I misunderstood.

[Maksimus]

Since we are debating something that was originally included in my mini-mod, I'd like to comment on a few of the things being raised...

I am glad you saw and commented this, hopefully, EB team will do something about it