Wagenburgs, new medieval unit/tactic

**Razor1952** · 12-11-2007, 05:11

While reading the Hussite thread I came across this wiki entry

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagenburg

Wagenburgs were used by the hussites in particular , they are a square of wagons manned by handgunners/crossbows, and were a forerunner of Wellingtons infantry squares!.

It would certainly be a cool addition to any mod or expansion, fancy having to attack an ai with a half dozen of these wagenburg squares!.

**Goaswerfraiejen** · 12-11-2007, 07:44

That's pretty much what Russian War Wagons were supposed to be. They were previewed but not included. It's a real shame, because that was a huge factor in my purchase of the game--I was looking forward to the dimension they would add to strategy on the steppe.

**TheLastPrivate** · 12-11-2007, 11:35

With the current engine of the game it would have been hard to implement.. just like how tercio was a whole formation that somehow got stripped of the light infantry/gunner part...

**Fisherking** · 12-11-2007, 21:06

Why is that? They put in elephants with fricking cannons on’em didn’t they. The Hungarians and I think maybe the Poles used those things to good effect on the Turks. I never heard of the Russians using them in that period though.

They were pretty tough. You put them in a lager and sent your cavalry out to pick a fight. Then they ran for cover behind the wagons and let the cannon speak for them.

They say they were not used in the west because the roads were too bad and the ground not open enough for them to be effective. But wouldn’t you like to have them to fight those darned elephants…

**Cheetah** · 12-11-2007, 21:43

I think that the problem is that they could have only handled the wagon as a single unit. Like the rider and the horse is handled as a signle unit, and the ele and the rider/crew is handled as a single unit. That is, if one dies the other dies too. This is less problematic with cavalry but could have been a problem with a wagon where most people would expect to be able to kill the crew one by one (whereas in the current system it can be only an all or nothing).

**ReiseReise** · 12-11-2007, 22:51

Why wouldn't it be handled as a siege engine, like the Carroccio Standard or Great Cross. IIRC from the article, the wagons had a combination of ~12 gunners and soldiers manning them, I'd be fine with 20 gunners with strong melee as the crew. So few in number would prevent them from being an overpowered gun unit, but would allow them to defend somewhat. Add your own cannons and cavalry as separate units.
Is it possible to give siege crews gunpowder weapons?
Also getting them into formation might be a problem, They would have to have a "deploy" ability where they turn the wagon sideways and put the crew 'behind' it (actually to the side) with the ability to fire over it. Or going out on a limb here, if possible have 3-4 'riders' on the engine with guns like an elephant, then a crew of 12-20 decent melee soldiers who push the thing around and have the option of deploying to the side of it instead of behind it. This is probably mixing up the mount and engine definitions so maybe it wouldn't work.

Just thinking about possibilities, I am not extremely familiar with the mount/engine system

**Rhedd** · 12-12-2007, 03:25

Know why I think they didn't put them in?

Because you guys would've been really disappointed by the implementation.

Wow, gamers make everything so complicated.

With the M2 engine, the only reasonable way of handling them would've been along the lines of a wooden fort that moves along with you. When a stack including war wagons is met in battle, the circled wagon fortification appears on the battlefield, just like a fort.

All this nonsense about deployment, movement, included troops and guns, etc. just makes developers want to pull their hair out. ^_^

**Fisherking** · 12-12-2007, 07:54

The later ones used in Hungry and Poland mounted the cannon on the wagons. I am guessing that they were smaller bore devices. I am assuming that they were drawn by animals but how they trained them to tolerate shooting over their heads I don’t know.

I am just guessing that they got left out because they were only used in the east and that no one would notice. I am sure it might be a balance issue too if we had tank warfare in the 13 and 1400s.

**_Tristan_** · 12-12-2007, 09:21

From what I recall, the wagons are included in the custom battles and could be modded in the campaign, if one could bother to do it...

**TheLastPrivate** · 12-12-2007, 14:56

Are you serious? Which battle is it? From which campaign?

**Alpedar** · 12-12-2007, 15:10

Imo even husssite version had cannons. But they did not shoot when moving. They formed wagon city with infantry wagons on outside and artilery inside. So draft animals were not included in shooting.

**_Tristan_** · 12-12-2007, 17:58

Originally Posted by TheLastPrivate

Are you serious? Which battle is it? From which campaign?

Apprently, it was a project of CA but never was implemented...

The unit name was Gulay Gorod and figured in the Russia roster

See this thread : https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...ighlight=gulay

**Old Geezer** · 12-12-2007, 18:23

I would pay any exhorbitant amount CA demands for an expansion to play as Hussites. What could be more fun than these Hussite war wagons versus Timmurid canon pachyderms?