The One they call "God"

**Geoffrey S** · 12-12-2007, 20:52

Besides, who are we to judge what is good or evil to God?

**rvg** · 12-12-2007, 20:55

Originally Posted by Geoffrey S

Besides, who are we to judge what is good or evil to God?

Well, the 10 commandments come directly from God, so we do have some idea regarding what God approves or disapproves.

**caravel** · 12-12-2007, 21:15

Fear the camel god, fear him as do the horses!

**Kagemusha** · 12-12-2007, 21:44

How can one judge something, one does not know? Lets take an example from something that we can observe. Is Sun evil or good? Without Sun there would not be life on this planet we call earth. Also if nothing else before, the Sun will ultimately destroy everything on this planet, the planet itself included. So its basically predetermined to destroy us. Does these facts make Sun good or evil compared to us?

**rvg** · 12-12-2007, 21:45

Originally Posted by Kagemusha

How can one judge something, one does not know?

If you release that mod, I will declare you divine.

**Kagemusha** · 12-12-2007, 21:51

Originally Posted by rvg

If you release that mod, I will declare you divine.

Well unless there will be divine intervention that should happen sooner or later.

**Big_John** · 12-12-2007, 22:23

all of the hand wringing in this thread can be reduced very quickly. either 1) the description of god as both omnipotent and omni-benevolent is flawed, or 2) our definition/understanding of potency/benevolence is flawed, or 3) god is an absurd concept.

of course, i lean hard towards 3, but most bible-type theists out there seem to think 2 is the best solution, as evidenced by phrases like, "god acts in mysterious ways". but another way to say that would be to say, "the infliction of 'evil' on humans by other humans is god's will", or, "when a pedophile rapes and murders children, or a tyrant gases millions, this is simply an aspect of the divine path for humanity".

otherwise, if those examples are not coherent with the will of god, then god cannot be both omnipotent and omni-benevolent. an omnipotent god would have the ability to stop 'evil', and an omni-benevolent god would always choose to. hence, god is either weak or sadistic at least some of the time (or, option 3, is an absurd concept).

free will is a scapegoat that is as problematic in a divine frame as it is in the material world. an omnipotent god, through both action and inaction, negates the possibility of 'free will' as strongly as causality in the physical universe. especially if that god is the creator of existence.

this issue is about as dead as a horse can be. believers will believe, and the rest of us won't.

note: the idea that 'reality' is an illusion and we're all just souls sitting in gods waiting room is a fairly clever escape. it allows for no real suffering in the world, and more-or-less loopholes the whole problem of evil (perceived suffering is abundant, but meaningless, i guess). but, it feels more like clever semantics than a meaningful philosophy to me, though not an impossibility.

**Myrddraal** · 12-12-2007, 22:46

omni-benevolent god would always choose to.

free will is a scapegoat that is as problematic in a divine frame as it is in the material world. an omnipotent god, through both action and inaction, negates the possibility of 'free will' as strongly as causality in the physical universe. especially if that god is the creator of existence.

These two statements are not logical. God is omni-powerful; he can stop or start anything he likes. God is omni-benevolant; he wants what is best for all of us.

These two statements can be both equally true if combined with the simple statement; Free will is what is best for all of us.

This way, God, who is all powerful, refrains from stopping evil deeds, because he will not take away the best gift he has given us, independent consciousnesses and the freedom of choice.

All other discussion about whether this is true will go nowhere. I think Bijo was asking the question from an abstract logicl and philosophical perspective; is it possible, given an omni-potent god, for that got to be omni-benevolant, and vica versa.

Clearly, it is possible. End of an old and much repeated discussion.

**Navaros** · 12-13-2007, 07:17

Originally Posted by Big_John

or 3) god is an absurd concept.

God may seem like an absurd concept. But, all the alternatives are just as absurd if not moreso. The universe, all life in the universe, just magically poofing into existence with all it's infinite complexity --- that concept will always be every bit as absurd as any God concept is.

Humans will never be able to come up with any explanation for that that is not absurd. So, to say God is an absurd concept, isn't saying much.

Human beings' limited capacity requires absurdity in any potential explanation of such things, whether it be God, the big bang etc.

**Geoffrey S** · 12-12-2007, 21:33

Originally Posted by rvg

Well, the 10 commandments come directly from God, so we do have some idea regarding what God approves or disapproves.

That depends on how much faith you put in reliability of development of the Bible, which was written and passed down by man.

**master of the puppets** · 12-12-2007, 21:11

A human is not evil, you would be very hard pressed to find an utterly evil person among the masses, and most of us realise we could not stomp a baby or blow up a building. Neither is humanity good. as a whole we are panicky, stupid, ill-tempered and vain. But this does not stem from evil.

We Are SELFISH!

to our very core every human desires foremost in there hearts to be, comfortable, loved, and honored. Whether you choose to attribute this to the flaws imbued in man when he took the apple in the garden because he and eve were convinced they desired it. or whether biosocialogicly speaking we are all still animals who care only for ourselves and our offspring. Either way this selfish desire to be rich(theres a war), powerful (a couple of wars i think), correct (2 crusades and a jihad), are what is running the world. Those who ignore these desires and suffer to bring them to others are what we call heroes and inspirations, there not inherently good, they just care about others more than themselves

and don't say that the world is in bad shape, come on, the world has always been in bad shape. For as long as man has attributed might to right there have been wars, famine, religious wars, greed. the only thing that is changing is the numbers. the numbers born, the number killed, the number lost, the amount gained. thats it.