The Concept of Secession
Particularly in the United States - What are your opinions regarding secession? (from either the Federal or State system). If you'd like, you can also talk about your feelings about annexation (of either agreeable foreign states or those in rebellion from a foreign state)
I'm just interested.
Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 12-12-2007 at 17:27.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: The Concept of Secession
Let's just say that I am very happy that North won the war. Uncly Billy Sherman might be dead, but there will be plenty of others to take his place, if there is ever a need to pummel another rebellion.Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
On a more serious note, secession from a tyrannical government is understandable. Also, the motives of the secessionists are an important consideration.
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Re: The Concept of Secession
In a true democracy secession should be allowed if the majority want it. However, as it's been stated before, the USA is not a democracy.
The UK is staring into the abyss, with self rule for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland but not England. Quite how this might pan out is still unclear. However if the majority in these countries/principalities/provinces want independence then that's a done deal.
I'm not sure you'd want to keep a country together at the point of a gun.
There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”
To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.
"The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."
Re: The Concept of Secession
I am curious as to by whose definition we are not a democracy, and then a follow-up question: which country is/was a democracy?
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Re: The Concept of Secession
Failed ones. We aren't a democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic with a representative legislature. This is the reality.
"That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
-Eric "George Orwell" Blair
"If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
(Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ
Re: The Concept of Secession
Republic is a form of Democracy. If by Democracy you mean specifically a Direct Democracy, then no, we aren't one, and aside from a couple of cantons in Switzerland I cannot think of any other contemporary examples of a direct democracy.
"And if the people raise a great howl against my barbarity and cruelty, I will answer that war is war and not popularity seeking. If they want peace, they and their relatives must stop the war." - William Tecumseh Sherman
“The market, like the Lord, helps those who help themselves. But unlike the Lord, the market does not forgive those who know not what they do.” - Warren Buffett
Re: The Concept of Secession
The USA is a republic.
Beat me to it Tuff.
I reckon the Swiss have the nearest thing to a democracy. It wouldn't work in larger countries IMO, I like the idea of regular plebiscites. It keeps the political elite on a short leash, which can only be a good thing.
Last edited by InsaneApache; 12-12-2007 at 18:51.
There are times I wish they’d just ban everything- baccy and beer, burgers and bangers, and all the rest- once and for all. Instead, they creep forward one apparently tiny step at a time. It’s like being executed with a bacon slicer.
“Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it whether it exists or not, diagnosing it incorrectly, and applying the wrong remedy.”
To learn who rules over you, simply find out who you are not allowed to criticise.
"The purpose of a university education for Left / Liberals is to attain all the politically correct attitudes towards minorties, and the financial means to live as far away from them as possible."
Re: The Concept of Secession
While this sounds nice and fair, where do you draw the line? Should I be able to secede my house from the UK if the majority of people living there want it? That way lies anarchy.
Co-Lord of BKS and Beirut's Kingdom of Peace and Love.
"Handsome features, rugged exteriors, intellectual chick magnets, we're pretty much twins."-Beirut
"Rhy, where's your helicopter now? Where's your ******* helicopter now?"-Mephistopheles.
Re: The Concept of Secession
Big King Santafax! what are you doing back here?
now i'm here, and history is vindicated.
Re: The Concept of Secession
Back here? I never left, baby.
Co-Lord of BKS and Beirut's Kingdom of Peace and Love.
"Handsome features, rugged exteriors, intellectual chick magnets, we're pretty much twins."-Beirut
"Rhy, where's your helicopter now? Where's your ******* helicopter now?"-Mephistopheles.
Re: The Concept of Secession
The USA was, and at least technically still is, a Republic formed by the joint action of the several SOVEREIGN states.
I believe that Lincoln was wrong when he asserted that secession was unconstitutional. I believe that voluntarily joining a political union does not obviate your ability to dissolve that union (short of war).
However, a reasonable reading of the Constitution suggests that, as with admission, secession would require the concurrence of 2/3 of the states. If you can make a convincing enough case, you should be allowed to depart and set up shop on your own.
Currently, however, secession has been labeled unconstitutional. Once part of the USA, you will not be permitted to depart unless you are able to win your independence through stregth of arms. Well over half a million permanent "votes" were registered to support the perspective adopted by Lincoln, the cause for which they gave the "last full measure of devotion."
"The only way that has ever been discovered to have a lot of people cooperate together voluntarily is through the free market. And that's why it's so essential to preserving individual freedom.” -- Milton Friedman
"The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule." -- H. L. Mencken
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