The Concept of Secession

[ICantSpellDawg]

Particularly in the United States - What are your opinions regarding secession? (from either the Federal or State system). If you'd like, you can also talk about your feelings about annexation (of either agreeable foreign states or those in rebellion from a foreign state)

I'm just interested.

[rvg]

Particularly in the United States - What are your opinions regarding secession? (from either the Federal or State system). If you'd like, you can also talk about your feelings about annexation (of either agreeable foreign states or those in rebellion from a foreign state)

I'm just interested.

Let's just say that I am very happy that North won the war. Uncly Billy Sherman might be dead, but there will be plenty of others to take his place, if there is ever a need to pummel another rebellion.

On a more serious note, secession from a tyrannical government is understandable. Also, the motives of the secessionists are an important consideration.

[InsaneApache]

In a true democracy secession should be allowed if the majority want it. However, as it's been stated before, the USA is not a democracy.

The UK is staring into the abyss, with self rule for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland but not England. Quite how this might pan out is still unclear. However if the majority in these countries/principalities/provinces want independence then that's a done deal.

I'm not sure you'd want to keep a country together at the point of a gun.

[rvg]

...the USA is not a democracy...

I am curious as to by whose definition we are not a democracy, and then a follow-up question: which country is/was a democracy?

[ICantSpellDawg]

I am curious as to by whose definition we are not a democracy, and then a follow-up question: which country is/was a democracy?

Failed ones. We aren't a democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic with a representative legislature. This is the reality.

[InsaneApache]

The USA is a republic.

Beat me to it Tuff.

I reckon the Swiss have the nearest thing to a democracy. It wouldn't work in larger countries IMO, I like the idea of regular plebiscites. It keeps the political elite on a short leash, which can only be a good thing.

[rvg]

Failed ones. We aren't a democracy. We are a Constitutional Republic with a representative legislature. This is the reality.

Republic is a form of Democracy. If by Democracy you mean specifically a Direct Democracy, then no, we aren't one, and aside from a couple of cantons in Switzerland I cannot think of any other contemporary examples of a direct democracy.

[InsaneApache]

Republic is a form of Democracy. If by Democracy you mean specifically a Direct Democracy, then no, we aren't one, and aside from a couple of cantons in Switzerland I cannot think of any other contemporary examples of a direct democracy.

Not so.

[rvg]

Not so.

Is so....

Main Entry: de·moc·ra·cy
Pronunciation: \di-ˈmä-krə-sē\
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural de·moc·ra·cies
Etymology: Middle French democratie, from Late Latin democratia, from Greek dēmokratia, from dēmos + -kratia -cracy
Date: 1576
1 a: government by the people; especially : rule of the majority b: a government in which the supreme power is vested in the people and exercised by them directly or indirectly through a system of representation usually involving periodically held free elections
2: a political unit that has a democratic government
3capitalized : the principles and policies of the Democratic party in the United States <from emancipation Republicanism to New Deal Democracy— C. M. Roberts>
4: the common people especially when constituting the source of political authority
5: the absence of hereditary or arbitrary class distinctions or privileges


The American Republic clearly fits the definition.

[InsaneApache]

You said a republic is a form of democracy. May I present the Republic of Sudan. Perhaps, Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

Now if you'd said that a republic may be a form of democracy........

[rvg]

You said a republic is a form of democracy. May I present the Republic of Sudan. Perhaps, Democratic People's Republic of Korea.

Now if you'd said that a republic may be a form of democracy........

Those two do not make the American Democracy any less legitimate. Any social structure can be perverted to the point of tyranny, and practically any social structure can be made democratic (such as the United Kingdom, which despite being a monarchy is a parliamentary democracy).

[master of the puppets]

i don't believe at this point in time a civil war or attempted secession would succeed in america, we're just too damn interwoven. If the south decided to rise again many northerners would have to fight there own families. many of us have grandparents in florida, relatives in california or new york. and the masses probably are not willing to divide families and pick up a gun to fight ones brother on behalf of so fleeting a cause as any can be rendered in the U.S.

what if republicans turn on the democrats, no one will fight for that. Taxes too high, one good riot will get our chosen representative off his arse and cause change. Maybe bush will try to cross the rubicon (so to speak) and attempt to become dictator... he would have no following, the army would not stand by him to subgegate there own families.

we are too prosperous for any hope of a rebellion or secession.

[InsaneApache]

(such as the United Kingdom, which despite being a monarchy is a parliamentary democracy).

....and we were a republic before we were a 'constitutional monarchy'. We've witnessed the problems of having a politician as the head of state. It's not big, it's not funny and it's not clever.

[rvg]

....and we were a republic before we were a 'constitutional monarchy'. We've witnessed the problems of having a politician as the head of state. It's not big, it's not funny and it's not clever.

I do not understand what you are trying to convey here... republic didn't work for you, but it worked just fine for us. What is the issue?

[InsaneApache]

I have no issue. I was just having a conversation on a message board. Why? What were you doing?

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

In a true democracy secession should be allowed if the majority want it. However, as it's been stated before, the USA is not a democracy.

The UK is staring into the abyss, with self rule for Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland but not England. Quite how this might pan out is still unclear. However if the majority in these countries/principalities/provinces want independence then that's a done deal.

I'm not sure you'd want to keep a country together at the point of a gun.

While this sounds nice and fair, where do you draw the line? Should I be able to secede my house from the UK if the majority of people living there want it? That way lies anarchy.

[Big_John]

While this sounds nice and fair, where do you draw the line? Should I be able to secede my house from the UK if the majority of people living there want it? That way lies anarchy.

Big King Santafax! what are you doing back here?

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Back here? I never left, baby.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

The USA was, and at least technically still is, a Republic formed by the joint action of the several SOVEREIGN states.

I believe that Lincoln was wrong when he asserted that secession was unconstitutional. I believe that voluntarily joining a political union does not obviate your ability to dissolve that union (short of war).

However, a reasonable reading of the Constitution suggests that, as with admission, secession would require the concurrence of 2/3 of the states. If you can make a convincing enough case, you should be allowed to depart and set up shop on your own.

Currently, however, secession has been labeled unconstitutional. Once part of the USA, you will not be permitted to depart unless you are able to win your independence through stregth of arms. Well over half a million permanent "votes" were registered to support the perspective adopted by Lincoln, the cause for which they gave the "last full measure of devotion."

[Big_John]

Back here? I never left, baby.

[InsaneApache]

Currently, however, secession has been labeled unconstitutional. Once part of the UK USA, you will not be permitted to depart unless you are able to win your independence through stregth of arms. Well over half a million permanent "votes" were registered to support the perspective adopted by Lincoln, the cause for which they gave the "last full measure of devotion."

How ironic.

[Xiahou]

The USA was, and at least technically still is, a Republic formed by the joint action of the several SOVEREIGN states.

I believe that Lincoln was wrong when he asserted that secession was unconstitutional. I believe that voluntarily joining a political union does not obviate your ability to dissolve that union (short of war).

However, a reasonable reading of the Constitution suggests that, as with admission, secession would require the concurrence of 2/3 of the states. If you can make a convincing enough case, you should be allowed to depart and set up shop on your own.

Currently, however, secession has been labeled unconstitutional. Once part of the USA, you will not be permitted to depart unless you are able to win your independence through stregth of arms. Well over half a million permanent "votes" were registered to support the perspective adopted by Lincoln, the cause for which they gave the "last full measure of devotion."

My view "no backsies" is summed up pretty much in your third paragraph. Once a state agreed to the Constitution, they can't back out of it on their own accord. In practice, it's up to the federal government and other states to decide. They can choose to enforce the agreement on seceding states (see Civil War), or they could do nothing and allow them to secede.

I also think that the 2/3 notion would also work. 2/3 are needed to amend the Constitution, so I can't see why 2/3 could write a state out of the union if they chose to.

[Lemur]

Oh, we'll rally round the flag, boys, we'll rally once again,
Shouting the battle cry of freedom,
We will rally from the hillside, we'll gather from the plain,
Shouting the battle cry of freedom!

The Union forever! Hurrah, boys, hurrah!
Down with the traitors, up with the stars;
While we rally round the flag, boys, rally once again,
Shouting the battle cry of freedom!

We are springing to the call of a million free men more,
Shouting the battle cry of freedom!
And we'll fill our vacant ranks of our brothers gone before,
Shouting the battle cry of freedom!

[Lord Winter]

But wouldn't a ban on succesion deny the very ideals this country was founded on? I mean look at Locke and the decleration of independence. When ever a governemnt fails to perserve natural rights the agreement is null and void.

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.

Disclaimer: I'm not supporting the south or think the Union should be torn apart except for the most heavy of causes.

[KrooK]

Lol what are you talking about
When last time some states tried secession, there were war.

1)These states became ruined and on 10 years lost their rights
2)Big part of population was murdered/raped/robbed
3)Inner rights into states became changed.

Now would be worse IMO

[Beirut]

If Vermont and Alaska want to secede and join Canada, that's cool. Y'all can keep the rest.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Did you know that there is a clause in the Articles of Confederation that allows for quick annexation of Canada in the event that it would like to join the Union? They could really change voting habits in the House and Senate if they were to ever want that. Which they probably wouldn't.

[Lemur]

If Vermont and Alaska want to secede and join Canada, that's cool. Y'all can keep the rest.

I think I've seen copies of this dangerous Canadian plan ...

[AntiochusIII]

I think I've seen copies of this dangerous Canadian plan ...

Classics never get old.

Still, I'm right on the border, so... does that mean I'll be like, in the middle of the warzone and stuff?

[ICantSpellDawg]

Classics never get old.

Still, I'm right on the border, so... does that mean I'll be like, in the middle of the warzone and stuff?

That's where the majority of traitor lynchings will occur. So it is written.