Indian References about the IndoGreeks.

[keravnos]

As I was searching my archive for something unrelated, today, I came across this file, which was gathering electronic dust.

It has accumulated the excrepts of the "yavana" mentions in Indian literature, which is very vast. Care has been taken to root out the mentions of other invasions of India, which the Indians have called ever since, "Yavanas".

Pauranic literature was written after 5th century AD. The following quotes are specifically for the IndoGreeks. It is difficult to be absolutely sure as older stories are preserved and mixed with the new ones. That and the fact that after the IndoGreeks all northwestern invaders of India not speciffically named are collectively called Yavanas makes discerning which is which, difficult. However, archaeological sources as well as epigraphic ones are a pretty good way to at least make a good selection.

For example the "Black Yavanas" mentioned in the epic Indian works are believed to be the Islamic Ghaznavids who invaded India from 1050 AD on, which bear absolutely no relation to IndoGreeks who invaded via the same path (NW India via the IndoKush mts "Khyber" passage). As the IndoGreeks who invaded India via that passage were the first to do so, a lot of invaders of India, who aren't mentioned by their own name, would be colloquially called "Yavanas". Those would be the Arabs who invaded and occupied Sindh in the 7th century CE, The Turk Gaznavids and possibly more, up to the Mongols who were called "Mughals".


---The Yavanas along with the Sakas (Baduhakas according to Siva Purana), Kamobojas, Paradas and Pahlavas are the tribes (Rakshasas according to Siva Purana) who assisted the Haihayas in occupuying the kingdom of Bahu.

---In Bhagata Purana (4,XXVII,19-30) we find the Lord of Yavanas Fear(Bhaya), his brother Mortal fever (Prajwara). In the next chapter the destruction of the city of Puranjala (now a village in Aliganj tehsil, Etah district, Uttar Pradesh) by the Yavana army is described in graphic detail. [Archaeology helps us here with the discovery of double edged arrow heads in Ganges Valley, similar to those found in Taxila, in the excavation at Kausambi, Sokh and Mathura-among clay seals and coins depicting greek deities such as Athena, Nike and Apollo, now in Bharat Kala Bhavan museum, Varanasi]


---In Padma Purana the term "Yavana" is used to imply "criminal" used for those who kill, kidnap, steal, practise abortion etc, all those resembled Yavanas.

---Kane quotes several minor texts in which Yavanas are described as barbarians (mlecchas), eaters of cow's flesh, contradictory thinkers, and having their own peculiar manner of dress and trimming of hair. (Indians at the time wore their hear long and in topknots). In other parts they are shown as different to mlecchas (barbarians), above them, as if leading them.

---In both Mahabharata and the Puranas the Yavana expansion seems to actually take place. The Yavana country, which in the Mahabharata seems to be an almost insignificant country, very far away,[presumably in -then- Baktria], one on a very long list of the countries in the world, is in Pauranic times sometimes referred to as the single western neighbour of India. The Skanda Purana (I,II,39,161(II)) informs us that the Yavana country had forty thousand villages. The Yavana and the Kamboja are also said to be terrible countries.(Padma Purana, 6, CXCIII, 28-42).

---Several references to the Yavanas and their kingdom occur in Tamil epic literature and in the Ceylonese chronicle Culavamsa (beginning after second century AD but believed to mentining things happening some centuries past as well as present). In the fifth part (canto) of the Tamil epic poem Cillappatikaram, for example, the abodes of wealthy Yavanas and mercenary Yavana swordsmen are described. A yavana kingdom existing in the North is also mentioned.

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It is written that all Hermitages, holy places, rivers and pools had been besieged by the Yavanas. Indians believed that "...the Yavanas would be in India for the sake of Religion, pleasure and wealth (Matsya Purana,CCLXXIII,25)"

The above passage should be considered as belonging to either the IndoGreeks as well as to later invaders. Reason? We know that Ghaznavids invaded India more than 17 times not to stay, but to go on and loot temples for their riches. IndoGreeks have done the same, as Indian artefacts which belonged to temples were discovered to AiKhanoum, meaning those Indian temples had been looted. If that is combined with the stated hatred of the Brahmi priest class at the IndoGreeks, it is easy to make some associations.

I posted this here, as I feel certain that at least a few people will appreciate it. For those happy few, I hope the above has been a pleasant read.

[Vorian]

Interesting thanks for posting

[Pharnakes]

Excelent.

Feel like joining the AtB team?

[keravnos]

Why, thank you.
Honored. If you want me as an advisor I would love to help. Full member though, that would be a no. I just wouldn't have the time for that. RL and other mods I am currently involved in would necessitate that I decline.

Still, this wasn't why I posted.

http://www.askasia.org/teachers/imag...83fb45b32134e2

Description

Pakistan, Gandhara area; 2nd - 3rd century C.E.
Schist
H. 6 in. (15.2 cm)
Estate of Blanchette Hooker Rockefeller
1993.001

Once part of a full statue, this small head of a man illustrates an interest in portraiture in the art of Gandhara. The Kushan rulers of Gandhara often had themselves depicted on coins while other individuals had themselves depicted as donors or attendants in scenes representing worship of the Buddha. It seems likely that this head was once part of such a scene. The fleshiness and maturity of the face and the depiction of the close-cropped hairstyle reflect the Roman interest in nonidealized portraiture and attest to the influence of Western traditions on the art of Gandhara.

This was the main reason. This is a beautiful Kushan statue. In there, the people commenting on it, (it is part of the Gandhara school made in 2nd -3rd century CE), fail to mention that Gandhara was part of the IG kingdom for a couple of centuries and that this is Hellenistic influence coming from Hellenes and descendants of Hellenes and in this case INDOGREEKS, NOT ROMANI, who were two continents away, and had absolutely NO influence whatsoever to those makers.

I don't blame them however. Other supposedly learned historians have made this assumption before. One has even gone to say that Romani sent artisans over at Gandhara to help them make those statues...

It is one of those things that made me mad about historical agendas and stuff. It isn't the reason though. People just DON'T KNOW about the Indogreeks. If they see a 1st CE, 2nd or 3rd CE statue they just assume it is Romani.

For people who don't know history, I can have no expectation that they understand what exactly it is they are watching or who might have made it. For Historians though, there MUST be a higher standard. Not just "Good looking statue, Romani must have made it". There can be another alternative, as in this case. Nobody is dismissing Romani. They overcame everyone. They won. Winners take it all indeed, but History must NEVER be demoted to winers propaganda.

[russia almighty]

Kern I kinda know how you feel . You'd be surprised how many people don't know who Axum is . They ask why did Meroe get trashed in the timeframe when Axum marched there black asses up there and sacked the place clean . Somehow they conveniently forget about Axum during that period .

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

I posted this here, as I feel certain that at least a few people will appreciate it. For those happy few, I hope the above has been a pleasant read.

Ευχαριστώ, says one of the happy few.

*subscribes to the thread*
.

[keravnos]

Here is a piece of evidence about Greek influence in Mathura, a stone from a nearby village with an inscription of the Greek era. The time should be 71 BC if this is indeed the same era. I quote from Mark Passehl on Hellenistic Yahoo Group:

The Maghera stone is published (inter alia) in Gérard Fussman's masterly study of Menandros and the _Milindapanha_; "L'Indo-grec Ménandre ou Paul Demiéville revisité", _Journal Asiatique_ 281.1-2 (1993), 61-138. At pp.111-117, with a photograph on p.112 and transcription with (French) translation opposite (p.113). These were made from an inspection of the stone at the Mathura Museum by Fussman himself in Feb 1991. It was unearthed by workmen in 1988 in the village of Maghera, 17 km. from Mathura. So one of the few important inscriptions of the period with a definite (and authentic) provenance. The inscription is cut in three long lines with only a couple of insignificant lacunae due to wear and tear. It is a brahmi script text commemorating the sinking of a well by a family of Brahman traders belonging to the gotra Mitrayu. The stone is from the wall of the well itself. The first line consists mainly of a precise dating formula. No ruler of any sort is mentioned, and in the usual Indic practice of the time the year date is written in words and repeated in numerals immediately after. The formula reads: "In the one hundred and sixteenth, 100 10 6, year of Greek Kingdom, in the 4th month of winter, on the 30th day".

Another factoid, from the war, yet another reason why I posted this.

It seems that certain people want to prove that IndoGreeks don't exist. Never have. The war that Brahmi started against the Alexander, and later on the IndoGreeks rages on.

Now you know why I posted this. It is sad, sad to see so many people out to prove that the above people, the IndoGreeks didn't exist. They just conquered some land on the very east of India and were later gone...

At all those naysayers...why?

Go here and take a look at it yourselves.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Indo-Greek_Kingdom

I just can't believe how some people try to bend facts, figures and fiction to disprove the existence of a people who contributed so much to their legacy.

It is very sad indeed.

(Look at what wiki users like Devanampriya are posting and you will find the answer to my sig)

-Devanampriya actually suggests that to suggest that Yavana era should in fact be a Scythian era or used by them. Would you use an enemy's era for counting time?

[Vorian]

From what I understand (the posts are strangely organised) an Indian ultra-nationalist refuses the fact that a few thousand years ago, some Indian tribes were ruled by Indo-Greeks.....

Well, idiots exist everywere and this historical issue is not the first or the last to attract them.

[Pharnakes]

Sad.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Ultra-nationalists everywhere. I can't even take the non-ultra ones!

I used to be and ultra³ in my youth.

.

[Watchman]

wonders idly what'd happen if the aforementioned ultra-Hindu were locked in a room with an equally rabid Hellenophile*

*= of the "Archimedean death-ray" persuasion, by preference

[keravnos]

.
Ultra-nationalists everywhere. I can't even take the non-ultra ones!

I used to be and ultra³ in my youth.

.

I, too, have been there. Mouzzafere, no headbanging needed, mate. I consider it a youth desease I have outgrown.


It is interesting to see that this character FROM THE MOMENT HE JOINED WIKI has been attacking the Indogreeks/Indoscythians even the Kushana. EVERYONE who has invaded India post Maurya are his mortal enemies and they must die, and never have lived.

I used to hate those guys, BIGTIME, now I feel they must be very sad individuals. It is those same guys who claim that Seleukos lost to the Mauryas, when there was just a trade arrangement. Seleukos got the elephants he needed to maintain his empire, Mauryas got land without a fight, along with a daughter from Seleukos who is said to have been Asoka's mother.

Still, if Indians feel this way about IndoGreeks it is very likely that we may not know more about them. If a proper archaeologic excavation isn't done on one of their cities, concentrating on their layer, NOT JUST Indoscythians or Kushana who built on top, I fear they will still remain in a cloud.

Do read that link though. It can tell you a great many deal of the agenda that some people carry.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
I can't speak about India... I know too little. But even in such a country as mine, with an imposed state ideology and ultra-nationalism around every corner, an oppressive military cast, corrupt state, more corrupt and incompetent academia etc. etc. some true knowledge, science and arts can flourish. Archeology is very primitive but at least works. So do, sometimes, history and linguistics.

On that basis, I would but hope for an at worst similar situation in India...
.

[russia almighty]

I don't see why people are afraid of admitting that they got conquered by someone , were influenced by someone ect .


The worst are Afrocentric's trying to rewrite history saying everyone was black .

[Mouzafphaerre]

.

The worst are Afrocentric's trying to rewrite history saying everyone was black .

They're possibly right!

If we take it granted that human race spread from Africa.

.

[Pharnakes]

TBH I subscribe to that theory, but seeing as it was well over 50000 years ago, I really fail to see how anyone could use thatfor nationalsim, or indeed anything else today. Its interesting for genetesists and anthropologists, but bears no relevance to anything else.

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
Sure thing.

For the God, the King and the glory of Apes!
.

[keravnos]

Some more Indian references for the IndoGreeks.

From Wikipedia...

Literary references and Recordings

356-321 BCE: The Periplus of Niarchus, an officer of Alexander the Great, describes the Persian coast. Niarchus commissioned thirty oared galleys to transport the troops of Alexander the Great from northwest India back to Mesopotamia, via the Persian Gulf and the Tigris, an established commercial route.[25]
334-323 BCE: Eratosthenes, the librarian at Alexandria, drew a map which includes Sri Lanka and the mouth of the Ganges.Which states the exchange of traffic and comodity in the regions.[26]
207-190 BCE: In a puranaanuru song, there is an advice for enterprising soldiers, which when translated literally comes to " He should ride the horse like the Phalavas, Muster the elephant like cherals, & must organize the defense of a fort like the Yavanas", this brings to light the existence of roman settlements. ---

(For the record Romani at the time only just set foot on Asia, defeating Seleukeides at Magnesia, they were absolutely NOT anywhere in India at the time...)

At the time from 207-190 BCE, Antiochos 3 reached Indos river got some elephants for his troubles and headed back to Mesopotamia, whereas the Baktrians started their incursions in Sind or Pentapotamia as they called it, creating the foundations for the IndoGreek state which was founded probably near 186 BCE, when the yavana calendar begins.

http://www.kushan.org/essays/chronology/azesvikrama.htm

This is a hugely important inscription. It means that for the first time we have clear evidence that a 'Greek' era was used in Kharoshti inscriptions. It also gives a way of calculating the era, take the Azes era (58 BC by convention) and subtract 128 years (186 BC give or take a year).

From here...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Ev...xes/Chola_navy

and a previous thread discussing IndoGreek hoplite in the following addy...
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showt...ght=indo+greek

Legacy of the Indo Greeks,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legacy_of_the_Indo-Greeks

[keravnos]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Buddhist_monasticism

A great link, especially when it is speaking about Buddhism, Sri Lanka and the IndoGreek connection between them.

http://www.vipassana.com/resources/mahavamsa/mhv29.php

...and from Alasanda the city of the Yonas came the thera Yonamahadhammarakkhita with thirty thousand bhikkhus.

and from 200 CE, long after the IndoGreeks were gone, still they played some part in the Western Ksatrapas (The final kingdom of IndoSakas in India), translating to them a horoscopy book from ... Alexandreia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yavanajataka

[Gleemonex]

Great thread, keravnos!

certain people want to prove that IndoGreeks don't exist.

I'd be very interested to see them explain away the light eyes and genetic marker for pulmonary fibrosis [1] that I inherited from my Indian grandmother ;)

-Glee

-----------------------------
[1] a lung condition congenital to ethnic Greeks

[oudysseos]

Y'all might be interested in this article: http://www.ecclectica.ca/issues/2002/1/issigonis.asp
It's titled The Ancient Greeks in Afghanistan and Their Probable Descendants Today in Nuristan, Afghanistan and in the Kalash People, Pakistan By Michael Issigonis. Short, but with footnotes.

[Iraklis]

Just out of interest, what aproximetly was the "blood relations" of Indogreeks to the ones in Hellas?
I am asking cause the subject is kinda poking my thirst for knowledge (Something i havent felt for quite some time realy)

[Ibrahim]

Just out of interest, what aproximetly was the "blood relations" of Indogreeks to the ones in Hellas?
I am asking cause the subject is kinda poking my thirst for knowledge (Something i havent felt for quite some time realy)

well, from what i myself got, they are closely related, at least in the very begining. but as time went, the greeks who settled bred with the locals (heck, they might have taken wives early on), and the 2 cultures assimilated into the Ghandhara culture. bear in miond it was gradual in nature.

that said, it is perfectly concievable that Greek genes got passed on from father(s) to children, producing children with "indian" mitochondrial DNA (for all I know its similar to the greek one), and the rest/ part of the rest is greek (explaining Gleemonix's condition). as to why its possible; simply the very large sample Alexander and larter the Diadochoi settled in the area as garrison troops.

also @ gleemonix: the light eyes part isn't necessarily greek.

[Iraklis]

Yea, i thought as much, but i always pref the verification from the asamption. Thanks