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The thing is I have been writing this historical novel about a Turkish khan and I need some opinions concerning Turks from a variety of people. I am having some constipation in emulating empathy for understanding what other people thought about the Turks in like 200 AD's. Still your thoughts about mongols and Turks even after they (us) converted to Islam might light some spark. If you guys (European and Middle Eastern preferably) can list your negative and positive opinions about Turks it would be very helpful. Any but any sincere opinion, emotion or belief would be most welcome?
Before they took Constinantinople, my understanding is that Turks weren't considered to be real civilized. The hill-soldiers, warriors from the mountains.
Well... for starters it might be slightly difficult to find legit "Turkish" khans in 3rd century AD... 
Originally Posted by Marshal Murat:
Before they took Constinantinople, my understanding is that Turks weren't considered to be real civilized. The hill-soldiers, warriors from the mountains.
Nomads mostly, actually. The Anatolian plateau is a sort of semi-steppe, and the Turks weren't even close to the first steppe émigres to set up shop there.Before they took Constinantinople, my understanding is that Turks weren't considered to be real civilized. The hill-soldiers, warriors from the mountains.
Originally Posted by Watchman:
Well... for starters it might be slightly difficult to find legit "Turkish" khans in 3rd century AD...
It depends on what you call Turkish but still your opinions are welcomeWell... for starters it might be slightly difficult to find legit "Turkish" khans in 3rd century AD...
Well, the first ones to actually be known by that name were the 6th-century Gökturks... Turkic-speaking and proto-Turkic tribes had of course been around quite a bit longer, but AFAIK trying to figure out which of those ephemeral steppe empires were proto-Turkic and which proto-Mongol is something of a major headache and bone of contention among scholars.
Not helped one bit by the little detail the buggers weren't too prone of writing things down, or generally too fastidious about who they let into their federations/empires.
Not helped one bit by the little detail the buggers weren't too prone of writing things down, or generally too fastidious about who they let into their federations/empires.
Originally Posted by Watchman:
Well, the first ones to actually be known by that name were the 6th-century Gökturks... Turkic-speaking and proto-Turkic tribes had of course been around quite a bit longer, but AFAIK trying to figure out which of those ephemeral steppe empires were proto-Turkic and which proto-Mongol is something of a major headache and bone of contention among scholars.
Not helped one bit by the little detail the buggers weren't too prone of writing things down, or generally too fastidious about who they let into their federations/empires.
that's hardly what I'm asking, come on!!! what comes to your mind when you hear the word Turk?Well, the first ones to actually be known by that name were the 6th-century Gökturks... Turkic-speaking and proto-Turkic tribes had of course been around quite a bit longer, but AFAIK trying to figure out which of those ephemeral steppe empires were proto-Turkic and which proto-Mongol is something of a major headache and bone of contention among scholars.
Not helped one bit by the little detail the buggers weren't too prone of writing things down, or generally too fastidious about who they let into their federations/empires.
Originally Posted by Marshal Murat:
Before they took Constinantinople, my understanding is that Turks weren't considered to be real civilized. The hill-soldiers, warriors from the mountains.
please elaborate on thatBefore they took Constinantinople, my understanding is that Turks weren't considered to be real civilized. The hill-soldiers, warriors from the mountains.
Steppe nomads.
Whose exact appereance and suchlike actually varied a fair bit from one end of the steppe belt to another - and once they got going, there were soon Turks from Syria and Anatolia to the gates of China, so not too much more specific to add. Doubly so as the early proto-Turks are sort of poorly documented (eg. I've seen the Huns tagged as both proto-Mongols and proto-Turks...).
Whose exact appereance and suchlike actually varied a fair bit from one end of the steppe belt to another - and once they got going, there were soon Turks from Syria and Anatolia to the gates of China, so not too much more specific to add. Doubly so as the early proto-Turks are sort of poorly documented (eg. I've seen the Huns tagged as both proto-Mongols and proto-Turks...).
Originally Posted by Watchman:
Steppe nomads.
Whose exact appereance and suchlike actually varied a fair bit from one end of the steppe belt to another - and once they got going, there were soon Turks from Syria and Anatolia to the gates of China, so not too much more specific to add. Doubly so as the early proto-Turks are sort of poorly documented (eg. I've seen the Huns tagged as both proto-Mongols and proto-Turks...).
I am writing a novel not a history book. I need emotions. Do you fear'em Like them, Hate them, Respect? whatever... I am trying to put myself in the boots of a person who is not of Turkic descendant.Steppe nomads.
Whose exact appereance and suchlike actually varied a fair bit from one end of the steppe belt to another - and once they got going, there were soon Turks from Syria and Anatolia to the gates of China, so not too much more specific to add. Doubly so as the early proto-Turks are sort of poorly documented (eg. I've seen the Huns tagged as both proto-Mongols and proto-Turks...).
You asked to tell the truth. When I hear Turk now I'm thinking about Kebab ;)
Because my favourite kebab bar is being managed by Turk.
But lets take a historical look.
Turk - about 200, 300, 4000 AD I have never heard that there were any Turks around. Maybe Huns, if we count them as Turks.
Turks were ok IMO. Before 1620 century Poland and Turkey respected themselves and did not fought a war (I'm not counting wars on Hunguary, because there there were not too many Poles). I think Turks were very similar to Poles that time. Different country, different culture but similar spirit. Turkish horses and part of weapons were being loved here - hussaria horses had turkish ancestors and part of sabres from Syria (called damascenki) were very popular in Poland.
Into XVI century -due to hard wars - Turks became enemies, but not enemies that you hate. Just guys on the others side, who are enemy and must be killed IMO. I think both nations simply had nothing to each other.
In the XVIII century Turks became liked again.
And in the end of XVIII century, when Turkey did not accept Partition of Poland, Turks became really liked. Now its underlined into historical books.
To sum up. Turks are ok and were ok but they had some disadvantages.
They behaved with prisoners very bad. This is damaging good opinion about them but with all enemies Poland faced into XVI century - Turks were most interesting.
Because my favourite kebab bar is being managed by Turk.
But lets take a historical look.
Turk - about 200, 300, 4000 AD I have never heard that there were any Turks around. Maybe Huns, if we count them as Turks.
Turks were ok IMO. Before 1620 century Poland and Turkey respected themselves and did not fought a war (I'm not counting wars on Hunguary, because there there were not too many Poles). I think Turks were very similar to Poles that time. Different country, different culture but similar spirit. Turkish horses and part of weapons were being loved here - hussaria horses had turkish ancestors and part of sabres from Syria (called damascenki) were very popular in Poland.
Into XVI century -due to hard wars - Turks became enemies, but not enemies that you hate. Just guys on the others side, who are enemy and must be killed IMO. I think both nations simply had nothing to each other.
In the XVIII century Turks became liked again.
And in the end of XVIII century, when Turkey did not accept Partition of Poland, Turks became really liked. Now its underlined into historical books.
To sum up. Turks are ok and were ok but they had some disadvantages.
They behaved with prisoners very bad. This is damaging good opinion about them but with all enemies Poland faced into XVI century - Turks were most interesting.
Why should *I* hate or fear them ? 
Contemporaries might be another issue, but AFAIK around 3rd century AD the Turks were yet small enough fry they didn't particularly terrify their immediate neighbours (other steppe confederations - at least one of them considerably stronger than the proto-Turks - and the Chinese, who had already gotten quite practiced in the art of fending off pesky horse barbarians)...
Might be a matter of taste, but personally I tend to insist novels that claim a historical setting also stick to that history. But YMMV.
Contemporaries might be another issue, but AFAIK around 3rd century AD the Turks were yet small enough fry they didn't particularly terrify their immediate neighbours (other steppe confederations - at least one of them considerably stronger than the proto-Turks - and the Chinese, who had already gotten quite practiced in the art of fending off pesky horse barbarians)...Might be a matter of taste, but personally I tend to insist novels that claim a historical setting also stick to that history. But YMMV.
Watchman, I think you misunderstood the point. A historical novel might as well about a guy on the walls of Constantinople in 1453, who never really existed. Historical novels must have a historical setting but not neccessarily historical accuracy. Like in paintings or statues. There are numerous painting depicting historical persons or events that aren't completely accurate... It's still art. Why should literature be any different...
Back to the original question.
I don't have any particular opinion or emotion about the turks, but I can say how I see steppe people (I was this close to write factions instead of people, what TW modding can do to your brain
) in general...
Fierce, proud, independant, ruthless but fair, honourable, simple (not in a bad way). Also, not very fond of culture and arts, more concerned with the practical aspects of life...
I would probably find them intimidating, but this come from a 21st century guy imagining a member of the Hunnic horde in front of him ...
I remember a book I read when I was younger, about 15 years old, Lathatatlan Ember, about a greek boy who was a servant of some powerful roman and he ended up going with him when he was chosen to be a part of the delegation to the Huns from the Eastern Empire... I forgot the name of the author, I think he was Hungarian. The boy fell in love with the Hunnic way of life and stayed there till Attilas death. He favoured the simplicity and honesty of the Hunns, compared to hypocrycies and intrigues of the roman life.
Back to the original question.
I don't have any particular opinion or emotion about the turks, but I can say how I see steppe people (I was this close to write factions instead of people, what TW modding can do to your brain
) in general... Fierce, proud, independant, ruthless but fair, honourable, simple (not in a bad way). Also, not very fond of culture and arts, more concerned with the practical aspects of life...
I would probably find them intimidating, but this come from a 21st century guy imagining a member of the Hunnic horde in front of him
... I remember a book I read when I was younger, about 15 years old, Lathatatlan Ember, about a greek boy who was a servant of some powerful roman and he ended up going with him when he was chosen to be a part of the delegation to the Huns from the Eastern Empire... I forgot the name of the author, I think he was Hungarian. The boy fell in love with the Hunnic way of life and stayed there till Attilas death. He favoured the simplicity and honesty of the Hunns, compared to hypocrycies and intrigues of the roman life.
Originally Posted by Sarmatian:
I remember a book I read when I was younger, about 15 years old, Lathatatlan Ember, about a greek boy who was a servant of some powerful roman and he ended up going with him when he was chosen to be a part of the delegation to the Huns from the Eastern Empire... I forgot the name of the author, I think he was Hungarian. The boy fell in love with the Hunnic way of life and stayed there till Attilas death. He favoured the simplicity and honesty of the Hunns, compared to hypocrycies and intrigues of the roman life.
I shoul take a look at that book if I can find a copy. Thank you my friend.I remember a book I read when I was younger, about 15 years old, Lathatatlan Ember, about a greek boy who was a servant of some powerful roman and he ended up going with him when he was chosen to be a part of the delegation to the Huns from the Eastern Empire... I forgot the name of the author, I think he was Hungarian. The boy fell in love with the Hunnic way of life and stayed there till Attilas death. He favoured the simplicity and honesty of the Hunns, compared to hypocrycies and intrigues of the roman life.
I think you ought to read Black Angel and Mikael novels written by Mika Waltari. They are describing Ottoman Empire into quite interesting way.
Can't say that I know much about Turks. What I think of when I hear the word Turk is basically this:
Seljuks, Nomads
War against the Byzantines
The Ottoman Empire
Siege(s) of Vienna
Wars against Russia
Of course, as a Swede I've read of Karl XII's stay in the Ottoman Empire and the events in Bender, but that's pretty much it.
Seljuks, Nomads
War against the Byzantines
The Ottoman Empire
Siege(s) of Vienna
Wars against Russia
Of course, as a Swede I've read of Karl XII's stay in the Ottoman Empire and the events in Bender, but that's pretty much it.
Originally Posted by Mete Han:
I shoul take a look at that book if I can find a copy. Thank you my friend.
I checked on the author - it's Geza Gardonyi. I shoul take a look at that book if I can find a copy. Thank you my friend.
Unfortunately, I don't believe there is an English or Turkish translation. So unless you can read Hungarian or Serbian, you won't have much use of it...
That's too bad, because the novel deals exactly with what you want to know. How a "civilized" boy finds and try to adapts to a "barbarian" way of life...
Originally Posted by KrooK:
I think you ought to read Black Angel and Mikael novels written by Mika Waltari. They are describing Ottoman Empire into quite interesting way.
Well, I will surely at least take a look at those books so thanx very much. In an interesting way Turkic people (nomads) and Turks (after they converted to Islam in general) played a consistent role as being "the other" for their neighbours when it came to describing and forming their identities. So even though my book will actually be about nomadic Turkic people (proto or pro) the view of the West about the Ottomans might help. Anyway thanx dude. Ihope I can find them.I think you ought to read Black Angel and Mikael novels written by Mika Waltari. They are describing Ottoman Empire into quite interesting way.
Originally Posted by Sarmatian:
I checked on the author - it's Geza Gardonyi.
Unfortunately, I don't believe there is an English or Turkish translation. So unless you can read Hungarian or Serbian, you won't have much use of it...
That's too bad, because the novel deals exactly with what you want to know. How a "civilized" boy finds and try to adapts to a "barbarian" way of life...
but thanx anyway... I try finding a copy in English.I checked on the author - it's Geza Gardonyi.
Unfortunately, I don't believe there is an English or Turkish translation. So unless you can read Hungarian or Serbian, you won't have much use of it...
That's too bad, because the novel deals exactly with what you want to know. How a "civilized" boy finds and try to adapts to a "barbarian" way of life...
Originally Posted by Sarmatian:
I checked on the author - it's Geza Gardonyi.
Unfortunately, I don't believe there is an English or Turkish translation. So unless you can read Hungarian or Serbian, you won't have much use of it...
That's too bad, because the novel deals exactly with what you want to know. How a "civilized" boy finds and try to adapts to a "barbarian" way of life...
I just found it!!!!! We have the book in Turkish. I checked on the author - it's Geza Gardonyi.
Unfortunately, I don't believe there is an English or Turkish translation. So unless you can read Hungarian or Serbian, you won't have much use of it...
That's too bad, because the novel deals exactly with what you want to know. How a "civilized" boy finds and try to adapts to a "barbarian" way of life...
My subjective opinion of Turks is that, like many countries, they have good cuisine but are too nationalist.
Originally Posted by Furious Mental:
My subjective opinion of Turks is that, like many countries, they have good cuisine but are too nationalist.
Well living in a country ruled by the generals doesnt leave much room for openmindness...My subjective opinion of Turks is that, like many countries, they have good cuisine but are too nationalist.
Off the top of my head I'd say lots of arrows.
Originally Posted by hellenes:
Well living in a country ruled by the generals doesnt leave much room for openmindness...
Merry Xmas my Hellenic Friend. Thank you for posting your opinion. Nowadays we would be fortunate to be ruled by the Generals because right now we are ruled by Radical Islamists who are the puppets of the U.S. How these guys cooperate in some contexts and fight each other in somewhere else is ironic, isn't it? But we will destroy all our internal and external enemies in this life or the next.Well living in a country ruled by the generals doesnt leave much room for openmindness...
By the way do you guys still have the same education system that raises all Greeks for hating Turks. Most of the Turkish people have nothing against Greeks.
Whoa, whoa... before this delicious bout of Balkan ethnodrama begins, I'd just like to say: don't waste your time. 
Originally Posted by Baba Ga'on:
Whoa, whoa... before this delicious bout of Balkan ethnodrama begins, I'd just like to say: don't waste your time.
Well I need that. I have to see the mechanism behind how particular groups of people form opinions about and judge the "Other". The book I am going to write about will nothing to have with Middle Eastern and Balkan people but still different mechanisms might apply to contexts. In short I am trying to read between the lines here. So please start the melodrama. I appreciate every opinion posted here.Whoa, whoa... before this delicious bout of Balkan ethnodrama begins, I'd just like to say: don't waste your time.
Originally Posted by Mete Han:
Merry Xmas my Hellenic Friend. Thank you for posting your opinion. Nowadays we would be fortunate to be ruled by the Generals because right now we are ruled by Radical Islamists who are the puppets of the U.S. How these guys cooperate in some contexts and fight each other in somewhere else is ironic, isn't it? But we will destroy all our internal and external enemies in this life or the next.
Merry Xmas my Hellenic Friend. Thank you for posting your opinion. Nowadays we would be fortunate to be ruled by the Generals because right now we are ruled by Radical Islamists who are the puppets of the U.S. How these guys cooperate in some contexts and fight each other in somewhere else is ironic, isn't it? But we will destroy all our internal and external enemies in this life or the next.
Speaking about "the other." I'd really like to see you defend this statement. After all, these radical islamist puppets were so gracious as to allow the 4th Infantry Division to invade Iraq from Turkey, right?
Perhaps you should post your subjective opinion about the Turks.Might I ask who the "Balkans" really are? I never knew what it is until after you mentioned it. Are they against Islam? Or do you mean they (the Greeks) are raised to hate Turks and not their religion? Sorry, I'm lost.
Balkans is a term for Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia, Yugoslavia, parts of Hungary and Romania.
Well, the Greeks and most Balkan nations hate the Turks because until the 1800s the entire region was under Turkish control, and the Turks (to my knowledge) repressed the Greek/Romanian Orthodox Christian religion. This got alot of Greeks angry, to they eventually rose up against the Turks, with aid from Britain and France.
It's history.
Well, the Greeks and most Balkan nations hate the Turks because until the 1800s the entire region was under Turkish control, and the Turks (to my knowledge) repressed the Greek/Romanian Orthodox Christian religion. This got alot of Greeks angry, to they eventually rose up against the Turks, with aid from Britain and France.
It's history.
Ah, I see. Just one of those historical conflicts that are still around today.
Historically, Turkmen went very far in saving what was the shrinking world of Islam.
Obviously, I'm no fan of some of the deeds done by past rulers of the Ottoman Empire and Anatolia who happened to be of Turkish heritage and nationality, but to believe all Turks would do such things is idiocy.
As a people, they are just like any other people: some good, some bad.
Oddly enough, what was a varied, loose confederation of tribes became one group in the minds of many, only to be re-divided (Turkey, Azerbaijan, Kyrgzstan, Kazakstan, Uzbekistan, etc)
Obviously, I'm no fan of some of the deeds done by past rulers of the Ottoman Empire and Anatolia who happened to be of Turkish heritage and nationality, but to believe all Turks would do such things is idiocy.
As a people, they are just like any other people: some good, some bad.
Oddly enough, what was a varied, loose confederation of tribes became one group in the minds of many, only to be re-divided (Turkey, Azerbaijan, Kyrgzstan, Kazakstan, Uzbekistan, etc)
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