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  1. #1
    A pipe smoker Member MiniMe's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Civilized" factions conquering the steppe

    Quote Originally Posted by Maksimus
    Also, Carthage will spread to Italy from Sicily when we add ''ai_do_not_attack'' for Carthage to Iberia and Rome to Carthage! Then Romans wait that Carthage steps into Italy and then fight's back (mostly Carthage reaches Rome and then slowly loosses)..
    Maksimus, if you think that saying something like this will help promote your otherwise great idea of ALEX EB MOD you're wrong.
    Carthage has been pillaging spain for centuries. And romans weren't sitting and waiting for Hannibal arrival. Therefor everything you propose here is completely ahistorical

    Like I've said recently someplace else, changing almost everything is not an option.
    Carthage behavior in all campaigns is perfect. They do what they are supposed to do. And as a "corner nation" they have all they need.

    I see three main problems of Rome Total War engine:
    1. we don't know how to make Romanis more south-aggressive and drug them to Africa;
    2. we don't know how to make horse-archer based armies more successful and thus enable steppe domination for steppe-dwellers. Well, as for this we may have found the way to solve it by adding fractional hitpoints to all horsies (light horse-archers and horse skirmishers 1.2 HP, medium horsies 1.4 HP, heavy horsies like hetanks/kinsmen/molossons 1.6 HP, catanks 1.8 HP) but this is still to be tested
    3. we don't know how to portray mutual Ptolemaioi and Selevkia empires decline that ended in their collapse

    3 may be solved by scripting methinks
    as per 1, it simply makes me go mad

    and one more thing: posting your posts in huge size does not make them more persuasive. Friend, you are heard by those who wants to hear you, without it ;-)
    What it does achieve, though, is that other people posts are lost inbetween yours and thus whole dispute collapses for all but most patient ;-)
    Last edited by MiniMe; 12-26-2007 at 03:39.


  2. #2
    Member Member Maksimus's Avatar
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    Unhappy Re: "Civilized" factions conquering the steppe

    MiniMe - First of all, you are a part of ALEX EB MOD! By your own free will and your wish mostly - so you should be informed that me for to Claim:

    ''Also, Carthage will spread to Italy from Sicily when we add ''ai_do_not_attack'' for Carthage to Iberia and Rome to Carthage! Then Romans wait that Carthage steps into Italy and then fight's back (mostly Carthage reaches Rome and then slowly loosses)..''
    Is NOT MADE UP!

    This only proves you don't even follow the ALEX EB MOD theread! The Mod you are are WORKING ON!.. So I will repost it!

    See, this was made according to ''ai_do_not_attack'' faction's. Rome set not to attack Carthage first - so he wait's Carthage to attack him first ! - Only then he fight's back! -
    AND Carthage is set ''ai_do_not_attack'' Spain - in this test Carthage was attacked BY IBERIA and ONLY then Carthage took some Iberian TOWNS and now will probably take Spain! I don't know what comes next because I quited testing after Egypt came in EUROPE and destroyed AS!

    See now:

    Italy 224bc

    CARTHAGE IS SIEGING ROME! - there are people that would like this
    Spain 224bc


    And some quick answers:

    1. We can't drug Roman's to Africa - but we can drug them to Sicily;
    2. We know how to make horse-archer based armies more successful - it's by adding HP form 1,2 - 1,3 and only for Horse-Archers not - horse skirmishers and other cavalry - this is tested already (and it works)- but not on Anglo forums.
    3. We know how to portray mutual Ptolemaioi and Selevkia empires decline that will end in their collapse by manipulating with ''ai_do_not_attack'' option, very little script and more army for AS in Syria (like some that would make Egypt in defence position + Antioh should never be in Aegypt hands!).

    .. I use Palatino Linotype font size 2 almost all the time - I only like to use diferent colours.. What is wrong with that? Everyone has an option to do the same
    Last edited by Maksimus; 12-26-2007 at 05:43.
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  3. #3
    A pipe smoker Member MiniMe's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Civilized" factions conquering the steppe

    Quote Originally Posted by Maksimus
    Also, Carthage will spread to Italy from Sicily when we add ''ai_do_not_attack'' for Carthage to Iberia and Rome to Carthage!
    I see no logik in this argument

    This only proves you don't even follow the ALEX EB MOD theread! The Mod you are are WORKING ON!.. So I will repost it!
    Friend, I'd like to follow ALEX EB MOD thread cause I'm very intrested in its further development, unfortunately, I'm a dumb person who has seriOUS difficulties TheN follwing text THAT is hard fOr me to Read

    See, this was made according to ''ai_do_not_attack'' faction's. Rome set not to attack Carthage first - so he wait's Carthage to attack him first ! - Only then he fight's back! -
    AND Carthage is set ''ai_do_not_attack'' Spain - in this test Carthage was attacked BY IBERIA and ONLY then Carthage took some Iberian TOWNS and now will probably take Spain! I don't know what comes next because I quited testing after Egypt came in EUROPE and destroyed AS!
    no logik again
    my opinion is - Carthage ways of expansion need no further adjustment at all, they are good as they are.

    And some quick answers:
    1. We can't drug Roman's to Africa - but we can drug them to Sicily;
    hot news - Romans ARE drugged in Sicily nomatterwhat after they overcome epeirotes. I've seen this behavior in 0.80 already and I don't see why we need to adjust it

    2. We know how to make horse-archer based armies more successful - it's by adding HP form 1,2 - 1,3 and only for Horse-Archers not - horse skirmishers and other cavalry - this is tested already (and it works)- but not on ANGLO forums.
    No, we don't know that yet. To be tested.

    3. We know how to portray mutual Ptolemaioi and Selevkia empires decline that will end in their collapse by manipulating with ''ai_do_not_attack'' option, very little script and more army for AS in Syria (like some that would make Egypt in defence position + Antioh should never be in Aegypt hands!).
    Key word in that part of my post was word "mutual". I want to see them both decline in the midgame not one of them rise to the state of freakin ancient USSR.

    .. I use Palatino Linotype font size 2 almost all the time - I only like to use diferent colours.. What is wrong with that? Everyone has an option to do the same
    Well, if everyone would happily follow this option I would be forced to leave this forum course it will be impossible to read it

    Cheers
    Last edited by MiniMe; 12-26-2007 at 04:39.


  4. #4
    Member Member Maksimus's Avatar
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    Post Re: "Civilized" factions conquering the steppe

    I will answer this in AlexEBMod thread - because admin will close this thread cause of us
    Last edited by Maksimus; 12-26-2007 at 05:13.
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  5. #5
    Whatever Member konny's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Civilized" factions conquering the steppe

    Quote Originally Posted by Maksimus
    3. We know how to portray mutual Ptolemaioi and Selevkia empires decline that will end in their collapse by manipulating with ''ai_do_not_attack'' option, very little script and more army for AS in Syria (like some that would make Egypt in defence position + Antioh should never be in Aegypt hands!).
    Have you tested that? When you place a strong AI army for AS in Syria that is not threatened by an army of Ptolemaioi of the same strenght it will immediatly withdraw these forces East and use them as garrison in the towns that are threatened by rebellion. AS hardly leaves much more than a FM and a unit of Pantodapoi Phalangitai in Antiochia. That's the reason why I had placed the two armies on Ptolemaioi territory very close to each other. On every setting both had moved their forces away, much like Pyrrhos does near Pella.

    Disclaimer: my posts are to be considered my private opinion and not offical statements by the EB Team

  6. #6

    Default Re: "Civilized" factions conquering the steppe

    (will answer here because it's more about HArchers than Alex)

    MiniMe, you've absolutely wrong notion of extra hps as "fractional". These are exactly EXTRA hps, and are added together in autocalc (therefore numbers like 1,8 will mean some sort of "rhino archers" rather than "horse archers"). :D Note that elephants and chariots are classified as "cavalry" in EDU, so we can guess they use the same autocalc formulas (maybe even infantry uses the same). Dumb autocalc routine doesn't check if EDU entries are correct, it just applies them "as is" w/o question! So, we can pretend that extra hp for HArchers represents their ability to keep away from the enemy longer shooting extra volleys @ same time (tactical battles use completely different set of calc routines, so extra hps for plain cavalry are ignored there).

    Dunno about serbian forum Maksimus mentioned, but i found it myself long time ago and tested in both vanilla and XGM and it definitely works.
    Last edited by Lgk; 12-26-2007 at 18:40.
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  7. #7
    A pipe smoker Member MiniMe's Avatar
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    Default Re: "Civilized" factions conquering the steppe


    so these are not fractional but extra hitpoints and there never was a possibility for autocalc to operate with fractionals. Very disapointing. ruins the whole idea for me then, cause I'm against 2 hp horse archers
    (not to mention 8 hp rhino catas )


  8. #8

    Default Re: "Civilized" factions conquering the steppe

    Quote Originally Posted by MiniMe
    Very disapointing. ruins the whole idea for me then, cause I'm against 2 hp horse archers
    What is "very disappointing" anyway? Extra hps do NOT change performance in tactical battles for plain simple one-man cavalry!! (elephants and chariots are another story). Do you think that, say, armenian "half-stack of lowly eastern infantry and occasional cataphract" beating scythian "half-stack of HAs and a few Noble HAs" is NORMAL? I'm tired of such things since old bad vanilla times - and won't mind if HArchers are given even thousands of extra hps as long as they win in autocalc most of engagements they should easily win in tactical battles.

    Exact number of extra hps is to be found by experiment, eg steppe factions expansion pace and achievments in test Casse-campaigns. Though methinks 1,2 - 1,3 depending on unit quality would be enough.
    occasional ALEXANDER EB member
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  9. #9

    Default Re: "Civilized" factions conquering the steppe

    Actually it is disappointing since the guys become a real nuisance in melee as well. (Which is not supposed to happen with such light cavalry.) In any case it'll make life much more difficult for the settled factions since they've got no proper units to counter nomadic nobles -- the favourite flavour of horse archer employed by the nomads.

    And finally: AFAIK it would be pretty normal for an army of crappy light infantry & archer/spearmen to see off the occasional half-stack nomadic raids. It's how the Iranians held the nomads at bay.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: "Civilized" factions conquering the steppe

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
    Actually it is disappointing since the guys become a real nuisance in melee as well.
    NO, THEY DON'T!!!
    Does anybody ever READ my posts here?

    For elephants, changing 1,2 to 1,12 makes a lot of difference in tactical battle... For cavalry, changing 1,0 to 1,12 (to 1,"anything" in fact) makes absolutely NO difference - it counts in autocalc only! Anybody can test it by himself!!

    Quote Originally Posted by Tellos Athenaios
    And finally: AFAIK it would be pretty normal for an army of crappy light infantry & archer/spearmen to see off the occasional half-stack nomadic raids. It's how the Iranians held the nomads at bay.
    Small raiding bands, maybe. But definitely NOT armies! And especially not on OFFENCE in hostile steppes!!

    Even human player will have hard time and will most probably lose such engagement, unless in VERY favourable terrain.
    Last edited by Lgk; 12-27-2007 at 01:20.
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  11. #11

    Default Re: "Civilized" factions conquering the steppe

    The EDU guide in the scriptorium states that extra hp for secondary animals does not count for horse riders. Seems to only apply to chariots and elephants.

    <B>AFAIK it would be pretty normal for an army of crappy light infantry & archer/spearmen to see off the occasional half-stack nomadic raids. It's how the Iranians held the nomads at bay.</b>
    That becomes a question of balance. Numbers, morale, and armor still counts given the differences I see in EB naval warfare as opposed to normal. The higher morale and armor really changes things, not to mention the numbers. I've had one onearia beat off two light pirate vessels when it got attacked. No command bonuses for either side. This compared to my pentekontes who kept getting beat by a single pirate. Still, command bonuses really do tell most of the story.
    Last edited by Ymarsakar; 12-28-2007 at 16:47.

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