Sons of Mars Victory Condition

[Verrucosus]

Greetings,

I have a question about the "Sons of Mars" Prologue for Rome (version 1.5).

The factions summary says you have to control 50 provinces including Rome. This fits with the "descr_win_conditions.txt" file in the Sons of Mars folder which says "Imperator". However, there is only about a dozen provinces on the Prologue map. Does this mean that it is technically impossible to "win" the Prologue or is there a different victory condition that is simply not correctly displayed.

If it were possible to complete the Prologue successfully, I would suspect the victory conditions to include the control of Rome. Can this be achieved? In particular, given the limited number of provinces and the reduced timeframe (40 years), is it possible to be successful enough to get the "grab for power" message that would allow me to attack the other Romans faction?

Of course, I could just play the Imperial Campaign. I have done so and will do so again. Still, it would be a pleasant surprise (to me), if the Prologue when played beyond the initial tutorial phase would turn out to be a challenge in itself.

Verrucosus

[Warmaster Horus]

Actually, I tried that myself. I had practically every province possible, except the Roman ones. You can't really get enough influence amongst the people to be able to attack your countrymen.

So the answer is no, I'm afraid.

[predaturd]

send a diplomat to the senate and revoke military access then enjoy the roman civil war

[Warmaster Horus]

That works? Never tried it before.

It might, actually.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Sadly Verrucosus, the prolouge is impossible to truly win.

Likewise it is also impossible to attack your fellow Romans. This is primarily becuase there aren't enough provinces, which is esentially what senate/people popularity works upon.

It takes thirty-five provinces to result in a fall in senate popularity - this eventually causes them to request the suicide of your faction leader. Refusal results in the senate declaring war upon you, while acceptance results in your faction leader dying and the heir taking over. This gives you a few years of peace before being asked again.

It also takes conquest of more provinces than there are on the map to gain an acceptable level of popular support. Popular support simply allows you to attack/cancel certain treaties with your fellow Romans. This makes in nigh impossible to start the civil war through this method either.

send a diplomat to the senate and revoke military access then enjoy the roman civil war

I don't think that cancelling any of the starting diplomatic actions with the senate is possible without a situation where you are able to attack exists. This requires a certain level of popular support, which is almost impossible to gain in the prologue.

[Verrucosus]

I tested predaturd's suggestion and it did not work. The option to revoke military access simply did not appear on the diplomatic scroll.

If it is not possible to get enough popularity (10 points?) to attack Rome, we might not be able to find out whether that would satisfy the victory conditions. At least I can try to capture all provinces except Latium and Umbria. I'm not sure whether I can manage that because the Scipii might preempt me on the other side of the Adriatic Sea and because the low tax income from new settlements makes it difficult to balance the budget once the senate rewards become less generous.

Verrucosus

[Paradox]

Actually, you can. This was the second campaign I tried and what I did was I bought some provinces from the Brutii, causing the senate to annoy me with their "Give region back" messages. I got outlawed.

[Verrucosus]

That's an interesting way to do it, Shogun! I have never bought land from other Romans even the Imperial Campaign so I had no idea that the Senate could get upset about that.

Could you explain in more detail, please? Did the Senate want you to give the provinces that you had bought back to the other family (I suspect it was the Scipii, the Brutii do not appear in the Prologue) or did they want them for the Senate itself? Did you manage to defeat the other Romans? If and when you "won" the Prologue, were there any provinces that you did not control?

Verrucosus

P.S.: In an earlier post (#6) I referred to Umbria instead of Picenum. Is it possible to edit that post and correct the mistake?

[Paradox]

Sorry, maybe I meant the Scipii, I don't remember. Anyway, yes, they wanted me to give the region back and they also demanded my faction leader to commit suicide, and there were no other provinces that weren't under my control, I managed to defeat all factions.

Btw Verrucosus, you have to be a member to edit your own post.

[Verrucosus]

No editing? That should teach me to be more accurate in the first place (and be careful about spelling and grammar).

Thank you for those tips. I will have to try your "anger the Senate" strategy another time, because my current game is moving into a different direction. I have just (316 BC) received the "Chance for Power" message! So far, I have taken only Etruria, Samnium, Apulia and (just this turn) Gallia Cispadana, but I have enough popular support (8 points) to tolerate a grab for power. I suppose the trigger is scaled to the smaller scope of the Prologue. Now, what next? An attack on Rome is impractical right now because half the army is in Ravenna and the other half in Tarentum. The Senate have ordered me to take Ariminium. I might do that while moving the Tarentum army back to central Italy. Perhaps I can take both Rome and Ancona (the Scipii hometown) in a single turn.

Verrucosus

[Paradox]

It would be a really good idea to prepare and surround Rome, blockading it and sending an army there. That way, Rome will be yours as soon as you are outlawed (well, maybe just a couple of turns but no one will be there to reinforce it).

[Verrucosus]

That is sound advice. However, the Senate has a full army stack moving around Rome, so I will need a large force even to surround the city. My northern army has to keep the Gauls in check. An the army in Tarentum will need three to four turns to get to Rome. Also unless I want to attack the eternal city with a couple of battering rams, I will have to wait for my onagers which will take even longer to arrive. I just hope that the people of Rome don't start to think that I'm far too cautious to be emperor.

In any case this is a fun way to play the game. It is less epic and much more focused than the Imperial Campaign and that is a nice change of pace.

Verrucosus

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

That's an interesting and, as far as I know, completely new revelation Shogun.

Might I request some more details on the circumstances? This includes the level of senate popularity at the time, the campaign type you were playing at the time and the circumstances of the mission's failure/success (especially if its failure resulted in having an instantaneous demand for your faction leader's suicide). This is mostly to satisfy my curiosity, although it could also be useful in assisting others in recreating the situation for experimental purposes.

Thanks

[Paradox]

At first, I was as good as I can get with the senate, my relations with the senate was perfect. After eliminating the Greeks and Thracians, I gave some regions to both S.P.Q.R and the House of Scipii. Then I bought them, causing the senate to send me messages requesting that I return the provinces. Some of the consequences were:

1. The Quaestor will investigate your faction for [insert negative trait]
2. Investigation of my faction for corruption
3. Displeasure of the Senate
4. Outlawed

For this, I highly recommend the money cheat, couldn't achieve this without it.

[Verrucosus]

Aha, in that case it all makes perfect sense: The Senators asked themselves where you got the money got buy the provinces back. Someone told them you were using the money cheat, so naturally they sent the questor after you!

Seriously, I cannot imagine that buying back a province (particularly one that you had captured in the first place) is in itself an offense warranting the disapproval of the senate. My guess would be that the purchase put you over a limit that corresponds to the 35-province-rule from the Imperial Campaign. Of course, this is pure speculation, but if I can get eight points of popular support simply by capturing four provinces, why should not the Prologue's Senate get mad at you for controlling a far smaller number of provinces than 35?

Verrucosus

[mrdun]

I remember when I first did the tutorial, I sold and bought povinces and was outlawed so therefore I could control the map but still it is not enough to actaully complete it.

[Spartan198]

I know this is off the subject,but bear with a junior member,please. What exactly is this 35-province-rule?

[Paradox]

I know this is off the subject,but bear with a junior member,please. What exactly is this 35-province-rule?

It's the Prologue on Rome: Total War, where you play as the House of Julii and have to control all 35 provinces. Is this what you meant with your question?

[Paradox]

I remember when I first did the tutorial, I sold and bought povinces and was outlawed so therefore I could control the map but still it is not enough to actaully complete it.

That doesn't really make any sense. Once you are outlawed, you're able to invade all settlements in around Rome and attack all factions. Maybe you didn't finish completing it.

[Verrucosus]

Gentlemen,

I am happy to report that I have been able to finish the Prologue. Following Senate missions to capture Tarquinii, Bovianum, Tarentum and Ravenna gave me enough popular support to get the "Chance for Power" message that allows me to attack or cancel the alliance with the other Roman factions. My forces were not well positioned for an immediate attack, so I used the troops in Ravenna to capture the Gaul settlement in Umbria while moving the army from Tarentum back to the north and building a third stack in Tarquinii. I did not use the opportunity to betray the Senate in the Senate in the open field when my southern force fought a battle with them against a sizeable force of rebels in central Italy. When I had positioned two stacks near Rome, I opened hostilities with an assassination attempt at one of the Senate's generals whose discovery had me outlawed. I immediately started to besiege the city. (I had a spy, but he didn't manage to get the gates open.) After beating back a relief force during the Senate's turn, I assaulted the city from three sides during the next round. The fight for the city was not exactly my finest hour. I had vastly superior numbers, but lost the larger part of them during the fight. Embarrassingly, a lot of my legionaries died trying to climb one of those stupid siege towers. At times, I was even afraid of losing, which of course made for an exciting battle. In the end, Rome was mine, and after quickly taken the Scipii's capital in Picenum, I spent several years recovering and regrouping. During the next phase, I conquered the last Italian province as well as Sicily, and, after another, shorter break, I finished by taking the three provinces on the eastern side of the Adriatic Sea. The faction scroll kept telling me that I still needed fourty-, later thirty-something provinces to win, but after taking the last province, I got a proper Victory Screen. It congratulated me on controlling everything from the glaciers to the deserts, so I suppose they just used the text from the big map.

Anyway, to answer my original question, it is in my experience possible to get enough popular support to attack the Senate and to win the Prologue by taking all provinces on the map. Only the display of the victory condition on the faction scroll is incorrect.

SpartanGlory1983, I used the expression "35-province-rule" to refer the rule that Omanes Alexandrapolites described in his first post in this thread: "It takes thirty-five provinces to result in a fall in Senate popularity ..." I am sure that this is correct for the Imperial Campaign. The problem is that the Prologue map only has twelve provinces, so I was speculating that there might be a different (lower) threshold for the Prologue. I am still unable to confirm that from my game because I was only outlawed after attacking the Senate myself. I am sorry about the confusion.

I am happy to see that the Prologue does work as a mini campaign. Once you are past the initial tutorial phase, the map of Italy offers a nice change of pace from the Imperial Campaign's map of Europe. I am aware however that my observations are not the same as those of other contributors, particularly Osmanes Alexandrapolites and mrdun, so there is still a bit of a puzzle to be solved here. Perhaps this is about the game version and it was not possible to win the Prologue under earlier versions which most veterans will have used to play the Prologue?

I am also still intrigued by the idea of using the purchase of provinces to "earn" the Senate's anger, but I will have to try that out some other time. For the moment, I will move on to another Imperial Campaign.

Verrucosus

[Guildenstern]

@Verrucosus:

Congrats for your achievement.
Just one question. Can you save the Prologue from the very beginning, or is the save feature disabled in the early turns?

Thanks

[Verrucosus]

The save function was disabled during the first few (I think the first ten) turns.

Verrucosus

[predaturd]

use quicksave i did

and now ill take my chance to say TOLD YOU SO. you can complete it :)

[mrdun]

I don't believe you. *trying to prove either way, might not sleep tonight.*

[mrdun]

OK, my findings:

*There is only 12 Provinces (35?) So not enough to win/ have chance at power
*I tried bribing scipii' town but I did not have the option
*tried giving away provinces, they wouldn't accept them (different turn)

It cannot be completed

[predaturd]

im gonna reinstall rome just to prove you worng

hope youre happy that im wasteing 5 hours of my life

[Verrucosus]

I don't believe you.

Ahem, ..., well, ... never mind.

Anyway, I suppose we need to distinguish two different issues:
(a) In the Prologue, can you get enough popular support to get the "Chance at Power" message?
(b) If it is possible to control all twelve provinces, do you get a victory message when you do so before time runs out?

As far as I can tell now from the game that I played, the answer to both questions is positive. I accept that other players have come to a different conclusion and I am somewhat interested in finding out why.

OK, my findings:

*There is only 12 Provinces (35?) So not enough to win/ have chance at power
*I tried bribing scipii' town but I did not have the option
*tried giving away provinces, they wouldn't accept them (different turn)

It cannot be completed

I am not sure whether mrdun's findings are entirely conclusive. It seems that they proceed from the assumption that you cannot get the "Chance at Power" message with only twelve provinces. The question is whether this assumption is correct in the context of the Prologue.

[Caius]

im gonna reinstall rome just to prove you worng

hope youre happy that im wasteing 5 hours of my life

Please guys, don't fight for something not important.

[Motep]

Gentlemen,

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I am happy to report that I have been able to finish the Prologue. Following Senate missions to capture Tarquinii, Bovianum, Tarentum and Ravenna gave me enough popular support to get the "Chance for Power" message that allows me to attack or cancel the alliance with the other Roman factions. My forces were not well positioned for an immediate attack, so I used the troops in Ravenna to capture the Gaul settlement in Umbria while moving the army from Tarentum back to the north and building a third stack in Tarquinii. I did not use the opportunity to betray the Senate in the Senate in the open field when my southern force fought a battle with them against a sizeable force of rebels in central Italy. When I had positioned two stacks near Rome, I opened hostilities with an assassination attempt at one of the Senate's generals whose discovery had me outlawed. I immediately started to besiege the city. (I had a spy, but he didn't manage to get the gates open.) After beating back a relief force during the Senate's turn, I assaulted the city from three sides during the next round. The fight for the city was not exactly my finest hour. I had vastly superior numbers, but lost the larger part of them during the fight. Embarrassingly, a lot of my legionaries died trying to climb one of those stupid siege towers. At times, I was even afraid of losing, which of course made for an exciting battle. In the end, Rome was mine, and after quickly taken the Scipii's capital in Picenum, I spent several years recovering and regrouping. During the next phase, I conquered the last Italian province as well as Sicily, and, after another, shorter break, I finished by taking the three provinces on the eastern side of the Adriatic Sea. The faction scroll kept telling me that I still needed fourty-, later thirty-something provinces to win, but after taking the last province, I got a proper Victory Screen. It congratulated me on controlling everything from the glaciers to the deserts, so I suppose they just used the text from the big map.

Anyway, to answer my original question, it is in my experience possible to get enough popular support to attack the Senate and to win the Prologue by taking all provinces on the map. Only the display of the victory condition on the faction scroll is incorrect.

SpartanGlory1983, I used the expression "35-province-rule" to refer the rule that Omanes Alexandrapolites described in his first post in this thread: "It takes thirty-five provinces to result in a fall in Senate popularity ..." I am sure that this is correct for the Imperial Campaign. The problem is that the Prologue map only has twelve provinces, so I was speculating that there might be a different (lower) threshold for the Prologue. I am still unable to confirm that from my game because I was only outlawed after attacking the Senate myself. I am sorry about the confusion.

I am happy to see that the Prologue does work as a mini campaign. Once you are past the initial tutorial phase, the map of Italy offers a nice change of pace from the Imperial Campaign's map of Europe. I am aware however that my observations are not the same as those of other contributors, particularly Osmanes Alexandrapolites and mrdun, so there is still a bit of a puzzle to be solved here. Perhaps this is about the game version and it was not possible to win the Prologue under earlier versions which most veterans will have used to play the Prologue?

I am also still intrigued by the idea of using the purchase of provinces to "earn" the Senate's anger, but I will have to try that out some other time. For the moment, I will move on to another Imperial Campaign.

Verrucosus

Hmmm...

Yes, I can back you up. I managed to get myself outlawed by the senate and took the whole map map. However, I was unable to get the stupid victory condition thing, and still could not save. (It may have been within the first ten turns yet, because Im a dirty cheater ). So, that got me thinking...is it possible that you cannot win within the first ten turns either? Unfortunately, this was a while back with a different computer, and seing as I dont have the game installed on this computer (It cant handle it), i have no way of investigating the matter for myself at this time.

(I wonder if this topic is covered in the rome section of this guild...)

[mrdun]

Predaturd, yes I am very happy letting you waste 5 hours of your time. I would not be if you hadn't posted that.

Just to explain, on one occasion i have been outlawed and taken all the provinces on the map but I still could not win. Everyother time I would not get outlawed, be unable to give away/sell provinces or buy them/ cancel military access with Senate/ Scipii and therefore wage war on Senate. But then there is still the fact that there is not enough settlements to win. Even on a shor campaign you need 15 there is just not enough.