Sweboz EB 1.0 comments

[sdk80]

Just began a Sweboz campaign and noticed that this faction doesn't seem to be that much completed. Probably you guys already know most of the stuff, that I will tell you now, but nevertheless I think constructive critic is always usefull. (sorry, but I'll probably misspell the in game region, town or unit names, but I really hope that you will know what I mean)


1. the music theme of the Sweboz-campaign doesn't fit at all to the Sweboz or ancient Germans (some elements within the theme do, f.e. horns or drums, but the main theme is made up by a Didgeridoo - at least it very much sounds like this) I think Australian Aborigines have nothing to do with ancient Germans, it would be the same if you guys made American native music the main theme of the EB-Rome campaign! I found it so much disturbing, that I had to turn off the music. A theme which was more inspired by f.e. modern "Viking metal" (not exactly like Viking metal, no E-guitars and modern adaptions, but should have f.e. deep male voices, battle-screams, drums, horns, lurs, a mix between a glorifying and sad musical undertone ...), would really fit!

2. the Sweboz large trading port upgrade (don't know the exact name..) uses the image of the eastern faction ports, instead of using the Celtic one, which should be used.

3. there is only one place available to build ships, which is Scandinavia.It's unhistoric and unjustified, because in ancient times German coast-tribes already sailed around in the North Sea and Baltic Sea and they even did acts of piracy and used their ships to settle new lands. (How do you guys think, that Germans were able to settle Frisian islands and Heligoland in the North Sea without ships? The Frisians were one of the oldest known tribes: they were first mentioned by Pytheas of Massilia 325 B.C.) SO at least Gáwjám~Habukoz really needs to be a another place of Germanic homeland with the ability to build ships. (I even would include the modern Danish peninsula, Gáwjám~Kimbroz in game I think)

4. the Sweboz victory conditions need to include Gáwjám~Gotanoz (the small island Gotland south of Scandinavia), because it's also Sweboz homeland in game, but doesn't have to be conquered or even raided, unlike all the other Sweboz homeland territories in game, which is strange.

I also have some comments about a special unit, but I don't have time for this now, so I will complete this post the next days.

Ok, that's it for now from my side. I really hope, that you take my comments for serious and aren't offended in any way. Still I very much admire the work of EB.

so long

[Strategos Alexandros]

1. The Sweboz music was made using ancient celtic instruments.

2. Not all factions have completed building pictures.

3. This was probably the only place with sufficent harbours for fleets of ships rather than just raiding parties.

4. I don't know, I'm not a team member.

[paullus]

A theme which was more inspired by f.e. modern "Viking metal"

uh-huh.

[Puupertti Ruma]

To the 1st:

That is not a digeridoo but an ancient celtic instrument (like Alexandros said), that resembles a horn. More information about the barbarian music themes, especially the awesome "Prehistoric Music Ireland" can be found here.

I my self think the music is Awesome and way more fitting than "viking metal". I mean, why to take inspiration from something that takes the inspiration from the very thing you are trying to depict.

About the 4th:

The Gawjam Gotanoz was a VC for Sweboz in 0.80 (or 0.7.4, not sure actually) and it was also needed for the "uniter of tribes" quest/trait. Pure speculation: Maybe it was axed as a VC purely from gameplay reason's as Gotaland is an island and Sweboz can get fleets only in scandinavia and that makes conquering Gotaland irritating.

[Cadwalader]

Here in Norway, I know "lurs" were used in battle. Lots of them have been found in Denmark, dating back to the bronze age, so I'm sure the Sweboz could've used them. Wikipedia has a nice page on this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lur

I believe I have heard or read that it was used even into the age of gunpowder. I know a legend about an invasion attempt by Sweden, using Scottish mercenaries, were repelled because a woman saw them, and blew the lur. The men heard it, and came to stone the bastards.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

1: Music is devided up by culture, since RTW has so few culture slots, all of Europe's peoples have to be thrown in the 'barbarian' culture slot. Due to this, they have to share the same music...

2: Probably should be fixed...

3: Ships in EB represent military fleets, not commercial ships or raiding ships. Though, I think there was talk of adding a military port to another Germania town, but I don't think that ever got implemented.

4: It may have something to do with the fact nobody from the mainland ever invaded the island, but the other way around.

[sdk80]

1. The Sweboz music was made using ancient celtic instruments.

3. This was probably the only place with sufficent harbours for fleets of ships rather than just raiding parties.

3. why do you think that there were military fleets available in antic Scandinavia and not on the North-Sea coast? Scandinavia was famous for its navy in Viking times, but not in the ancient world and in fact England was conquered by ships setting sail from the Dutch, German, and Danish North-Sea coast, so there must have been some ship building knowledge in this area long before, while Scandinavia became famous for its ships very much later. I know nothing of a scandinavian invasion by sea in the antiquity, while the Anglo-Saxon example of the late antiquity speaks for itself. By the way, the Romas called the North Sea Mare Germanicum and not Mare Gallicum; this name wouldn't have been justified at all without a recognizebale navy force in that area, right? It's absurd to think that those primitve German ships came down all the way from Scandinavia into the North Sea instead of the much nearer Dutch, German, Danish North-Sea coastline with it's many islands and natural bays.

To the 1st:

That is not a digeridoo but an ancient celtic instrument (like Alexandros said), that resembles a horn. More information about the barbarian music themes, especially the awesome "Prehistoric Music Ireland" can be found here.

I my self think the music is Awesome and way more fitting than "viking metal". I mean, why to take inspiration from something that takes the inspiration from the very thing you are trying to depict.

About the 4th:

The Gawjam Gotanoz was a VC for Sweboz in 0.80 (or 0.7.4, not sure actually) and it was also needed for the "uniter of tribes" quest/trait. Pure speculation: Maybe it was axed as a VC purely from gameplay reason's as Gotaland is an island and Sweboz can get fleets only in scandinavia and that makes conquering Gotaland irritating.

1. didn't know that an antic celtic instrument sounds that much like a Didgeridoo. seems to be crazy but true. Viking Metal was just an example (perhaps a bad one) nothing else. But still the Sweboz music theme is disturbing and I can't believe that people of that time actualy listened to that kind of monotonous music. There is probably no evidence at all of how antic music of the so called "Barbarians" sounded like and I really find it hard to believe that it sounded like in EB. (Don't take this as offense) More variation and a melody can't be wrong I think: I mean war drums and pipes were pretty easy to play and had great effect on morale, but for sure they used more variation and melody.

4. so fix the problem with the Sweboz military ports - make another one available and there is no prob with Gotland as a winning condition

1: Music is devided up by culture, since RTW has so few culture slots, all of Europe's peoples have to be thrown in the 'barbarian' culture slot. Due to this, they have to share the same music...

3: Ships in EB represent military fleets, not commercial ships or raiding ships. Though, I think there was talk of adding a military port to another Germania town, but I don't think that ever got implemented.

4: It may have something to do with the fact nobody from the mainland ever invaded the island, but the other way around.

1. didn't know that I have to hear the same music when playing Celts. Like I said, this is my first EB campaign and I started with Sweboz. I hope u guys modify the music, not only because I really can't bear to listen to it, while playing several hours, but for some of the reasons above.

3. see my answer above to strategos alexandros

4. that's not true. Gotland was conquered by the Swedish (Svear) in the early middle age.

[CaesarAugustus]

Any examples of "Viking Metal"?

[Alexander the Adequate]

I'm not horribly knowledgeable, but about the music, even if you find it satanic and untolerable, i don't think that the additions you suggested (pipes, drums) have any evidence to go on, which i think would be blasphemous in EB. The Celtic air instrument used now, however, we know that they used for sure (or the Celts used anyway). So i think until evidence comes up that pipes and drums were a common element in european music, they would not put them in. (However, i am not a team member and this could all be bollocks.)

[unreal_uk]

First glaring fact to add - Sweboz is not 'Germans' as RTW had it! They don't represent all the Germanic tribes under one banner!

[Tellos Athenaios]

4. the Sweboz victory conditions need to include Gáwjám~Gotanoz (the small island Gotland south of Scandinavia), because it's also Sweboz homeland in game, but doesn't have to be conquered or even raided, unlike all the other Sweboz homeland territories in game, which is strange.

As for 4) that's got something to do with preventing the Vanilla VC's from being triggered IIRC. Gawjam~Gotanoz, is in fact, nothing less than capital of Vanilla Latium! (Roma is located in the internal province of Latium2. )

[pezhetairoi]

The music sounded incredibly barbaric the first time I heard it, and I actually modded it out of the descr_sounds. But after a week or two I put it back in and it was much more palatable. For some people it's an acquired taste. Take five, give it time, and see what happens then.

[sdk80]

So i think until evidence comes up that pipes and drums were a common element in european music, they would not put them in.

Forget the pipes, this was just an example that quite primitve instruments can be used to greater effect than the actual EB Barbarian music theme sounds like. But for sure: horns, drums and lurs were used by ancient Germans, and it's obvious that those are probably the oldest instruments of mankind. In the later antiquity f.e. the Alemanni were famous for playing the Lyra! (this is no suggestion for including the Lyra, - because I don't know if the Lyra was already known among ancient German tribes in 270 B.C. - just wanted to show that people tend to underestimate the musical abilities of the "barbarians" in the antiquity.)

out of a history book on ancient Germans, which came out 2007 and combines latest knowledge of historians and experimental archeologists

First glaring fact to add - Sweboz is not 'Germans' as RTW had it! They don't represent all the Germanic tribes under one banner!

I know. But still all Sweboz homeland provinces have to be conquered in EB except of one

As for 4) that's got something to do with preventing the Vanilla VC's from being triggered IIRC. Gawjam~Gotanoz, is in fact, nothing less than capital of Vanilla Latium! (Roma is located in the internal province of Latium2. )

sorry, I don't understand cryptic modder language - I'm just a player. what's VC and IIRC?? Do I get you right that u want to tell me that it can't be changed?

The music ... Take five, give it time, and see what happens then.

will try on...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

sorry, I don't understand cryptic modder language - I'm just a player. what's VC and IIRC?? Do I get you right that u want to tell me that it can't be changed?

VC = Vietcong or victory conditions. Conditions to be met to win the game. In vanilla RTW (= the original game) VCs were identical for every faction, but as EB is much more sophisticated, it has different VCs for each faction. It is possible that somehow the game gets messed up if the AI would conquer "Latium", home of the vanilla Senate faction.

IIRC = if I recall correctly

[Mouzafphaerre]

.
When in doubt (with acronyms) check.
.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

When someone researches and composes and performs and records a bunch of realistic (in a quality recording) ancient Germanic music and makes it available to us also we will definitely definitely look into using it too. Till then, there's nothing more realistic for the music for the factions in that culture group (the "Barbarian" one) out there - and that the folks who made it allowed us to use it is still one of the biggest coups we've had.

[sdk80]

When someone researches and composes and performs and records a bunch of realistic (in a quality recording) ancient Germanic music and makes it available to us also we will definitely definitely look into using it too. Till then, there's nothing more realistic for the music for the factions in that culture group (the "Barbarian" one) out there - and that the folks who made it allowed us to use it is still one of the biggest coups we've had.

then most likeley there won't be any improvements ...

One question before I go on and invest time and energy in here:anyway is it desired , that people come up here with comments, suggestions and their knowledge?

Because comments like these:

uh-huh.

only show silly ignorance

[Foot]

then most likeley there won't be any improvements ...

One question before I go on and invest time and energy in here:anyway is it desired , that people come up here with comments, suggestions and their knowledge?

Because comments like these:



only show silly ignorance

When people completely misunderstand the ethos behind EB, as you did with your suggestion of basing our music on 'viking metal', there is a tendency amongst older members to be short with the newer ones. Additionally you spoke in a tone that was quite assertive, using words like "should" and making historic statements without backing it up with evidence, even though you showed yourself to be a new-comer to EB.

Foot

[sdk80]

When people completely misunderstand the ethos behind EB, as you did with your suggestion of basing our music on 'viking metal', there is a tendency amongst older members to be short with the newer ones. Additionally you spoke in a tone that was quite assertive, using words like "should" and making historic statements without backing it up with evidence, even though you showed yourself to be a new-comer to EB.

Foot

Listen, Bitey Terrier

I understood EB quite well, even though I'm new.
The Viking metal-thing was just an example to express my thoughts, perhaps a bad one, which I already said, but the rest isn't that wrong I think.

(not exactly like Viking metal, no E-guitars and modern adaptions, but should have f.e. deep male voices, battle-screams, drums, horns, lurs, a mix between a glorifying and sad musical undertone ...)

All those instruments (drums, horns, lurs) were in use without any doubt and I just said that I don't believe, that the current quite simple and monotonous EB-Barbarian sound is realistic - where are your evidences or historic facts here?

What's wrong with the words "should" or "need to"? How do you formulate suggestions? And if u look up my posts - I was polite in contrary to Paullus!

The military ports: I gave good and evident arguments, but I didn't get any serious arguments back, nor did I get historic evidence presented, that scandinavia was a military port in the antiquity. I really don't think that the current Sweboz military port situation is based on hard facts. Now you may say, that I'm the one who would like to have changes and improvements and therefore it's up to me to present facts and evidences. But if you really agree to the idea of EB, you need to accept better agruments and evidences (they are hard to find about ancient Germans in early antiquity) than you have (didn't get any), needn't you? Otherwise the so called EB-ethos is nothing more than a farce.

I may be new to EB, but I'm not new to history, Bitey! You know, where history lacks the facts and sources, interpretation and own thoughts are essential for every historian and even more for experimental archeologists.

But listen, I don't want to fight in here, I just want to be taken serious when I invest time, knowledge and energy!

I'm not the bad guy in here - this role would be new to me. I'm just defending myself against Bitey Terriers

[Foot]

Listen, Bitey Terrier

I understood EB quite well, even though I'm new.
The Viking metal-thing was just an example to express my thoughts, perhaps a bad one, which I already said, but the rest isn't that wrong I think.
All those instruments (drums, horns, lurs) were in use without any doubt and I just said that I don't believe, that the current quite simple and monotonous EB-Barbarian sound is realistic - where are your evidences or historic facts here?

What's wrong with the words "should" or "need to"? How do you formulate suggestions? And if u look up my posts - I was polite in contrary to Paullus!

The military ports: I gave good and evident arguments, but I didn't get any serious arguments back, nor did I get historic evidence presented, that scandinavia was a military port in the antiquity. Now you may say, that I'm the one who would like to have changes and improvements and therefore it's up to me to present facts and evidences. But if you really agree to the idea of EB, you need to accept better agruments and evidences (they are hard to find about ancient Germans in early antiquity) than you have (didn't get any), needn't you? Otherwise the so called EB-ethos is nothing more than a farce.

I may be new to EB, but I'm not new to history, Bitey! You know, where history lacks the facts and sources, interpretation and own thoughts are essential.

But listen, I don't want to fight in here, I just want to be taken serious when I invest time, knowledge and energy!

Perhaps I should clarify; the relationship we have with our fans is not equal. If we had to respond to every fan question with the pages and pages of information that we collected we would never get anything done at all. So no, we don't have to meet you guys on any equal footing when it comes to presenting evidence. If someone comes along and puts forward evidence that we feel is constructive and well-presented we will respond in kind. To be honest, your uninformed post on the Barbarian music put me off the rest of your post to begin with. We will also try to respond to requests as well, as we feel that EB is here to help. We do not have much time for new members, simply because we run a volunteer project and we cannot respond to everyone.

Teleklos has already responded to the music, as have others, but I'll shall make it clear. We cannot produce our own music, we don't have the team for it. If you can find a musical group that focuses on the recreation of ancient music who we can contact, then we will gladly look into it. Most of the Barbarian music comes from a group called Prehistoric Ireland which, through diligent research into ancient instruments and musical theory, attempt to recreate the sounds of bronze-age music. This of course is highly speculative, but if you wish to take it up with them I'm sure they will be happy to help you in that regard. As for our own, we worked with two professional composers on the scores, and are happy with the outcome. It may not sound like 'viking metal', or how you would wish it to sound, but that is hardly a fault with our history as, as you yourself mention, we must remain speculative.

Finally, my name is not Bitey Terrier. My name is Foot. We neither know each other well enough, nor are on good enough terms for you to use my self-designated nick-name in jest, harmless as it is.

Foot

[Tellos Athenaios]

@sdk80: as for your military port. Incidentally the Dutch and German coastal waters are not suitable of the presence of any military fleet whatsoever, even today. (Which would have been considerably worse back then, a simple comparison suffices: roughly 12 km from the North Sea coast in North Holland lies an Roman fort dating back to first century AD. But today it's next to one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world.)

You'd have to travel south, towards Belgium to find waters deep enough to allow for large fleets (especially for keeping them).

Finally it's only since medieval times that *real* military vessels are used: people simply did not have a need for any military fleet whatsoever, what with every mercantile ship being equipped to fend off a pirate attack/go pirate themselves.

[sdk80]

to make myself clear:

Sure, you don't have to do anything!

So we all have to live with the current Barbarian sound in EB... It's cool that those guys gave you the music for your mod, but just, because you became it for free and that it was a good clou for you guys, you shouldn't neglect any eligible criticism on it. That's all! Perhaps those ancient Irish music guys would even be happy if you contacted them again and asked them, if they would like to comnpose a music theme with more variation in it exclusively for this great mod..

I'm sure that you guys have almost no hard evidence on the Sweboz or ancient Germans in 270 B.C., it's obvious, because I know the sources on ancient Germans - some stuff you included is debateable, because you must have relied very much on your own interpretations, which may be wrong.
So you should be happy that people take interest and want to share knowledge, insights and ideas, instead of batten down the hatches. The claim on histroic accuracy turns out to be a farce, if you aren't open to evident arguments, where you used possible wrong interpretations yourself. This has nothing to do with equality but with intelligence, Bitey. (calm down, one last time let me call you like this )

[Geoffrey S]

So we all have to live with the current Barbarian sound in EB... It's cool that those guys gave you the music for your mod, but just, because you became it for free and that it was a good clou for you guys, you shouldn't neglect any eligible criticism on it. That's all! Perhaps those ancient Irish music guys would even be happy if you contacted them again and asked them, if they would like to comnpose a music theme with more variation in it exclusively for this great mod..

I don't think you realize how hard it is to acquire people who are either willing to create new music for a mod, which is a time-consuming task which requires a capable and reliable person, or donate it for free, which was indeed a coup for the team. It's either what's in there now, or nothing at all unless the EB team gets very lucky again.

I'm sure that you guys have almost no hard evidence on the Sweboz or ancient Germans in 270 B.C., it's obvious, because I know the sources on ancient Germans - some stuff you included is debateable, because you must have relied very much on your own interpretations, which may be wrong.
So you should be happy that people take interest and want to share knowledge, insights and ideas, instead of batten down the hatches. The claim on histroic accuracy turns out to be a farce, if you aren't open to evident arguments, where you used possible wrong interpretations yourself. This has nothing to do with equality but with intelligence, Bitey. (calm down, one last time let me call you like this )

I've yet to see any EB members claim that the mod is 100% historically accurate. That's impossible to achieve, as has been made clear by team members and in fact by yourself. When one leaves the hard facts, as must be done if such a wide-ranging mod is to be created, speculation becomes necessary; and in that area it becomes a matter of opinions, of which there a numerous possibilities among which the team has chosen a particular route. As a large number of topics in these forums prove, it's impossible to argue against opinions with opinions, and unless you can actually come up with hard facts which disprove the choices made by the EB team (the reasons behind which have now been illuminated) there is no obligation for them to listen to you, much less change things.

[sdk80]

@sdk80: as for your military port. Incidentally the Dutch and German coastal waters are not suitable of the presence of any military fleet whatsoever, even today. (Which would have been considerably worse back then, a simple comparison suffices: roughly 12 km from the North Sea coast in North Holland lies an Roman fort dating back to first century AD. But today it's next to one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world.)

You'd have to travel south, towards Belgium to find waters deep enough to allow for large fleets (especially for keeping them).

Finally it's only since medieval times that *real* military vessels are used: people simply did not have a need for any military fleet whatsoever, what with every mercantile ship being equipped to fend off a pirate attack/go pirate themselves.

Tellos Athenaios, thank you for taking the time and for this good answer. I really appreciate it.

The boats which you used for the Sweboz are very primitive ones, most likely based on the Hjortspring-boat type. Those kind of primitive ships don't need deep waters at all, because those aren't real military vessels in a modern sense. These "ships" can be used anywhere with great success. I don't know what other boats you included, because evidence is hard to find on that matter, but still these boats didn't need deep waters or any special natural conditions. And for game balances sake and historic accuracy admit another military port for the Sweboz on the North-Sea Coast.

[sdk80]

I don't think you realize how hard it is to acquire people who are either willing to create new music for a mod, which is a time-consuming task which requires a capable and reliable person, or donate it for free, which was indeed a coup for the team. It's either what's in there now, or nothing at all unless the EB team gets very lucky again.

I've yet to see any EB members claim that the mod is 100% historically accurate. That's impossible to achieve, as has been made clear by team members and in fact by yourself. When one leaves the hard facts, as must be done if such a wide-ranging mod is to be created, speculation becomes necessary; and in that area it becomes a matter of opinions, of which there a numerous possibilities among which the team has chosen a particular route. As a large number of topics in these forums prove, it's impossible to argue against opinions with opinions, and unless you can actually come up with hard facts which disprove the choices made by the EB team (the reasons behind which have now been illuminated) there is no obligation for them to listen to you, much less change things.

point taken. thank you too for your patience, Geoffrey

so it's pretty much useless trying to convince you guys on a subject, which unfortunately has left almost no sources and hard facts like the ancient Germans of the Iron time, because you guys already made up your mind?

[CirdanDharix]

@sdk80: as for your military port. Incidentally the Dutch and German coastal waters are not suitable of the presence of any military fleet whatsoever, even today. (Which would have been considerably worse back then, a simple comparison suffices: roughly 12 km from the North Sea coast in North Holland lies an Roman fort dating back to first century AD. But today it's next to one of the busiest shipping lanes in the world.)

You'd have to travel south, towards Belgium to find waters deep enough to allow for large fleets (especially for keeping them).

Finally it's only since medieval times that *real* military vessels are used: people simply did not have a need for any military fleet whatsoever, what with every mercantile ship being equipped to fend off a pirate attack/go pirate themselves.

Carthaginian warships beg to differ. The Marsala wreck, for instance, had no purpose other than serving as a light vessel in Carthage's war fleet. I supose the same is true of many ships in the ancient Mediterranean world. Things were more blurry later, in the Viking age ships might be better at raiding or at hauling large ammounts of cargo, but they could be used for both; although, supposedly Alfred the Great founded England's first permanent navy, but that might just be a myth vehiculated by pop history for all I know.

Regarding the waters of the North and Baltic seas, I wonder how Imperial germany managed to keep their navy given what you claim, especially since, the last time I checked, Dreadnaught-era battleships had a greater draught than anything afloat during antiquity, up to and including Ptolemaios Philopator's floating monstrosity. And, I must add, Rotterdam is very much on the Dutch coast...

[Tellos Athenaios]

Hmm I suppose I should have made myself more clear:

1) I was under the impression (EDIT: and that's probably my fault for not reading everything or sth.) we were talking about presumed (either real or imagined) lack of military ports on the Belgian-Danish stretch of North Sea coast. Granted it would've been a heck of a lot easier to maintain and store a fleet in the Baltic. But even so, in 272 BC that was one of the least developped area's in all of Europe AFAIK.

Apart from that it's worth noting that especially before, but even after the Renaissance most, if not all fleets in the North Sea were in fact composed of ships primarily designed for mercantile purposes.

(As a matter of fact the arche-type Frisian mercantile ships for the North Sea (designed for the coastal waters, for intermediate distances, and mostly for carrying relatively much cargo with very little crew), aka the Cog, did in so form or another (Tjalk) remained in use even in the 20th century. And still does, but only for the purpose of racing.)

2) I should have added to my last statement the reminder I was solely talking about the North Sea. (Actually, by my reasoning the fact that the Carthaginians among others did employ ships for the only purpose of being used during war, as opposed to the peoples living around the North-Sea would explain the limitted amount of military ports in aformentioned North-Sea regions. )

3) Rotterdam is not very much on the Dutch coast. A brief, very much abbreviated and not quite as detailed, history.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Following the Viking incursions during the 8th and 9th century (going as far as to sack Dorenstadt, situated on the Rhine in the middle of the Netherlands) much of the naval trade over here shifted to less vunerable places, and like cities such as Dordrecht. (Since all trade vessels were still basically the simple Cog design this did not result in very much logistical trouble at all: the Cog could easily sail up and down the river, provided you'd use the tide.)

Whether or not it is actually true the following story clearly illustrates just how vunerable the region used to be: if it had not been for the Sint Elizabeht's flood (1572 IIRC) then Amsterdam would not have become the capital of Holland at all: Dordrecht was the patron city of the Count of Holland and Amsterdam was hardly anything beyond a backwater-swamp (with some villages).

But, since the flood came the need for a more sheltred location became apparent, and hence the new importance of places like Amsterdam.

At that point the new trade-routes with the Far-East became the hottest business on the planet, and naturally everybody wanted a share. Only it was very much apparent that Cog's and similar cheap-mass-production ships would not quite cut it when you had to sail across half the globe. Bigger ships were neccessary. This created a new problem, for those bigger ships could not sail all the way to the new mercantile capital of the Netherlands, and the capital of the Netherlands was very much not the right location if you wanted to sail to the East: it litterally was oriented towards trade with the Baltic. Of course there was a solution, but the growing importance of this new trade which was far more dangerous yet also far more lucrative when it did pay off gave rise to the development of a new city. And that one (among others) was the city of Rotterdam.

Rotterdam (as a town/city rather than some village) was found, and grew in importance only after the Dutch had begun major scale enviroment-shaping projects, such as the diggin of canals, and most of all the complex structures of dikes, windmills and locks commonly referred to as 'polder'. (Though, in fact the word 'polder' is not about these things but merely indicates the land gained/maintained by it.)

4) sdk80: yes, and they are basically the odd mercantile fleet that is either confiscated or just decides to go pirate (a common thing to do around the North Sea, very common - afterwards you just sell the goods back to the previous owners ). So that part is about covered by the abundant presence of mercantile ports.

In the North Sea, real navies, with the explicit and sole purpose of being a military asset were not common to the point of non-existant altogether I'd say. Mind you if you look at the landscape of modern-day Netherlands you can still see why: in Frisia the old villages were located on what is called a 'Terp'; for the sake of comparison that's basically a sand dune. Those sand dunes were the only things that did not flood every odd 6 hours or so. In other words "Habukolandam" was more like "Habuko-Sea" half the time.

[sdk80]

1) I was under the impression we were talking about presumed (either real or imagined) lack of military ports on the Belgian-Danish stretch of North Sea coast. Granted it would've been a heck of a lot easier to maintain and store a fleet in the Baltic. But even so, in 272 BC that was one of the least developped area's in all of Europe AFAIK.

Sure it's easier to have a military fleet in the Baltic Sea and even a mercantile one, because the Baltic Sea simply isn't that rough as the North Sea, but if you don't have access to the Baltic Sea you have to live with what you have. Necessity is the mother of invention!
How do you explain it, that the Romans called the North-Sea Mare Germanicum? Large parts of the North Sea border Celtic lands like Belgium, Gaul, and Britain but still ancient German boats seem to have been more present in the North Sea than Celtic vessels, otherwise the Romans would have adressed it as Mare Gallicum. And how do you explain it, that England was conquered by Angles setting sail from Danmark, Saxons setting sail form North-Germany and let's not forget the Frisians, which also made up a large force in that decades long invasion, which set sail from Netherlands and northern Germany - without having the ability of maintaining and having a military fleet on the Dutch-German-Danish (in future I will adress it as DGD coast) North-Sea coast? How do you explain it that the Frisians already were known as a seafarer people by antic Greek and Roman writers, without a "military" (there were no real exclusive military vessels, existing vessel-types were modified for special purpuses like transport of goods, raiding, warfare) presence on sea?

The Region beeing not well developed is no argument for anything. What are you comparing? This DGD Region is one of the Regions in Europe with one of the oldest and proofed excellent seafaring traditions!

Do you guys really assume that vessels like the Hjortspringboat type came down from Scandinavia? Sorry, but this is absurd.

Apart from that it's worth noting that especially before, but even after the Renaissance most, if not all fleets in the North Sea were in fact composed of ships primarily designed for mercantile purposes.

(As a matter of fact the arche-type Frisian mercantile ships for the North Sea (designed for the coastal waters, for intermediate distances, and mostly for carrying relatively much cargo with very little crew), aka the Cog, did in so form or another (Tjalk) remained in use even in the 20th century. And still does, but only for the purpose of racing.) [...]
4) sdk80: yes, and they are basically the odd mercantile fleet that is either confiscated or just decides to go pirate (a common thing to do around the North Sea, very common - afterwards you just sell the goods back to the previous owners ). So that part is about covered by the abundant presence of mercantile ports.

In the North Sea, real navies, with the explicit and sole purpose of being a military asset were not common to the point of non-existant altogether I'd say. Mind you if you look at the landscape of modern-day Netherlands you can still see why: in Frisia the old villages were located on what is called a 'Terp'; for the sake of comparison that's basically a sand dune. Those sand dunes were the only things that did not flood every odd 6 hours or so. In other words "Habukolandam" was more like "Habuko-Sea" half the time.

True. In the Middle Age the mercantile ship type dominated the North-Sea- allthough f.e. the Hanse (medieval trade union of north-German cities, for the ones, who don't know) developed armed cogs with towers, for the purpose of guarding the merchant cogs, because of the Pirate problem - so this is an example of a original mercantile ship type, which became a war ship. How do you call this modified ship type? It's still a cog for sure, but it's only purpose is war.
Now for the Pirates: Klaus Störtebeker f.e. the famous medieval North-Sea Pirate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_St%C3%B6rtebeker How do you think he was able to make a living out of piracy without the ability to maintain his pirate cog fleet? As wanted Pirate he wasn't allowed to use the big ports of Hamburg, Rotterdam and so on - no he succesfully used the small Frisian islands as friendly ports without artifical digged out and created ports of the medieval big cities. But enough of Middle Age and the development of the Netherlands (Amsterdam, land gaining and so on). Back to topic.

If that part is already covered up in EB by the mercantile ports it's a bad system, because the ancient German vessels were no war-ships, but transports, mercantile ships, pirate ships in one. The Hjortspring boat which you included would be able to be created and maintained everywhere on the North-Sea coast. Flooding is no problem at all. People have learned to live with it over centuries, don't you think? And actualy the DGD-coast was the base for the invasion of Britain within the late antiquity. Now we have the military port in Scandinavia, while there is no known invasion in the antiquity, which began from Scandinavia! If you accept the Hjortspring boat as ancient military boat (which it isn't!) then you even have to make military ports available everywhere in Sweboz-homeland provinces with access to the Sea.

Now for the next thing. There were ancient German boats which were used for military and raiding purposes like the Saxon style boats and the quite similiar Nydam-type boat (the very early ancestor of the famous Viking longship!!), which are dated 300 A.D.. Those are better to be accepted as military boats and they operated all over the DGD coast and they had their home-"ports" there. This is a fact and therefore a hard proof and evidence that it was possible to maintain and have a military fleet in the North-Sea. They have a unique design and were developed exclusively by the ancient Germans, since the Celtic boats or Roman boats were of completely other design and contstruction! Now you may say that those are too late for E.B., but keep in mind that there are hardly boat findings at all (because they are wooden and therefore aren't that much resistent against the curse of time. I know only of two: The Saxon Sutton-Hoo boat, which is dated even much later, but without doubt historians accept that this kind of shiptype was used for the passage from the DGD coast to England centuries before by the Anglo-Saxon invaders, and the Nydam boat, which was used by unlucky Saxons raiding the Danish arounf 300 B.C.) and only one new finding can turn the history of shipbuilding in the DGD-area upside down. Keep in mind that we also don't have that many viking boat findings, but the waters of the North Sea were full of it in the early Middle Age. So I'd make the Nydam boat type available after the Reform of the Sweboz, which takes place very late in the EB timeframe.
By the way there is a large Celtic warship included (don't recall it's name, since I just began a Celtic Aedui campaign - good work till now, I like the presentation of the Celts in EB) Do you really have proof for this one? I really doubt it very much: I only know of leather and fur boats, which were used by Celts but I'm no expert on this.

Wow finally finished. Never posted something huge like this

[Geoffrey S]

point taken. thank you too for your patience, Geoffrey

so it's pretty much useless trying to convince you guys on a subject, which unfortunately has left almost no sources and hard facts like the ancient Germans of the Iron time, because you guys already made up your mind?

Wouldn't claim the latter part. I have seen people convincing team members, and at the very least posts such as your last one and any possible responses are extremely interesting and quite informative for the layman with regards to this subject such as myself. It's precisely discussions such as these, if founded on substantive information so as not to become a contest of opinions, which made me interested in studying history in the first place...

[Tellos Athenaios]

How do you explain it, that the Romans called the North-Sea Mare Germanicum? Large parts of the North Sea border Celtic lands like Belgium, Gaul, and Britain but still ancient German boats seem to have been more present in the North Sea than Celtic vessels, otherwise the Romans would have adressed it as Mare Gallicum. And how do you explain it, that England was conquered by Angles setting sail from Danmark, Saxons setting sail form North-Germany and let's not forget the Frisians, which also made up a large force in that decades long invasion, which set sail from Netherlands and northern Germany - without having the ability of maintaining and having a military fleet on the Dutch-German-Danish (in future I will adress it as DGD coast) North-Sea coast? How do you explain it that the Frisians already were known as a seafarer people by antic Greek and Roman writers, without a "military" (there were no real exclusive military vessels, existing vessel-types were modified for special purpuses like transport of goods, raiding, warfare) presence on sea?

The Region beeing not well developed is no argument for anything. What are you comparing? This DGD Region is one of the Regions in Europe with one of the oldest and proofed excellent seafaring traditions!

Do you guys really assume that vessels like the Hjortspringboat type came down from Scandinavia? Sorry, but this is absurd.

Whoa slow down a bit. First two questions I defer to my comment regarding the design of the cog (but for the echo of the fact that the cog actually is a Frisian type of ship): I think that such invasions would have (if there you would want to speak of 'invasion': my initial thoughts would be more akin to gradual migration/settling, as the Frisians, Belgae, and other Germanic & Celtic tribe did do all the time, btw) centered around fleets made up of mercantile ships. The cogs were not paticularly well-designed for crossing the Sea (what with it not being very sea worthy, et all) but would actually have cut it for the relatively small distance (hey, they traded all the time using that vessel) and would have been the best you could get your hands on for any such thing as "(mass) migration". It was easily convertible to a floating flat. (It basically was, with the addition of a few sails, some steering mechanisms/tweaks (it was very round, so it could roll over pretty far and still recover), certain stability tweaks and a ton of cargo-space. In short: the ancient, boat equivalent to the modern mid-distance trucks.)

And as for sea-faring traditions. Well, allow me but I don't see why the military navy is a prerequisite for being renown as sea-faring peoples? Methinks that the extensive trade network the Frisians had built up on its own more than meritted their reputation; not to mention their engagement in piracy.

To repeat: mercantile vessels simply doubled as military vessels. Why? Well, mercantile versions had been around for ages, and had been competely adopted to the enviroment, allowing to sail incredibly close to the coast but also to venture into deeper waters for an intermediate stretch of time. And add to that those vesells were made for a combination of cargo-capacity, speed (required because you needed to get the most out of good weather), agiltiy, and defence against pirates (required because the north sea used to be full of them).

True. In the Middle Age the mercantile ship type dominated the North-Sea- allthough f.e. the Hanse (medieval trade union of north-German cities, for the ones, who don't know) developed armed cogs with towers, for the purpose of guarding the merchant cogs, because of the Pirate problem - so this is an example of a original mercantile ship type, which became a war ship. How do you call this modified ship type? It's still a cog for sure, but it's only purpose is war.
Now for the Pirates: Klaus Störtebeker f.e. the famous medieval North-Sea Pirate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaus_St%C3%B6rtebeker How do you think he was able to make a living out of piracy without the ability to maintain his pirate cog fleet? As wanted Pirate he wasn't allowed to use the big ports of Hamburg, Rotterdam and so on - no he succesfully used the small Frisian islands as friendly ports without artifical digged out and created ports of the medieval big cities. But enough of Middle Age and the development of the Netherlands (Amsterdam, land gaining and so on). Back to topic.

Again. He uses mercantile ships as opposed to a real military naval fleet. At times his fleet would be relatively small, at times it would be hughe. But do you think he 'owned' all of those ships? That he actually 'maintained' them?

It is absolutely not in any way comparable with the organised, centralised development of naval infrastructure - not even the very smallest levels. Note that a military port is not just about storing your ships (with the cog types it's not a big deal: you can pull them on the beach/terp and anchor them: by the time the waves will reach your precious boat they will be broken already, because of the long stretch between the beginning of the coast (or rather 'wad') and the place where you'd typically tie your boats up). A military port is also about building the fleet, about repairing it.

The repairing business would've been, again, relatively easy. Most of all because it was not at all that required: just be careful with how you sail, pay some extra attention to how you balance the cargo - and next time you reach a more wooded area you buy your timber.

But that's not exactly how you can actually build any sizable, central, state/tribe/confederation-owned fleet. You can't build a fleet without material. And in the Netherlands the material for large-scale production of fleets just isn't there: by around 1600 just about every forest that had been in any way close to populated areas, and which were sufficiently accessible (as opposed to the Biesbosch) was virtually gone IIRC.

The Netherlands has a long tradition of importing basically everything and being the middle-man. A very long tradition: the Frisians themselves were middle-men already. (Timber, btw was typically imported from Sweden. Interestingly this was one of the foundations of the lucrative trade with the Baltic. Timber and grain were imported to the Netherlands, went through the whole chains of various industries and was then in some form exported again. A most striking thing is the trade in Iron ore from Sweden to the Netherlands where it was used in the various weapon industries. Second-rate quality weaponry was then sold back to the Swedes, the best quality was either kept or sold elsewhere.)

Anyhow: I think we can agree that if, as is being done consequently, military ports are only allowed in regions which historically had the resources, the expertise and the 'location', then we should exclude the Netherlands if only for the fact that they did not have the resources, right ? Same would go for Denmark which is pretty much a copy of the Netherlands (ok, apart from what those weird humans did to it), with proper hills if you will. Or was that the other way around?

If that part is already covered up in EB by the mercantile ports it's a bad system, because the ancient German vessels were no war-ships, but transports, mercantile ships, pirate ships in one. The Hjortspring boat which you included would be able to be created and maintained everywhere on the North-Sea coast. Flooding is no problem at all. People have learned to live with it over centuries, don't you think? And actualy the DGD-coast was the base for the invasion of Britain within the late antiquity. Now we have the military port in Scandinavia, while there is no known invasion in the antiquity, which began from Scandinavia! If you accept the Hjortspring boat as ancient military boat (which it isn't!) then you even have to make military ports available everywhere in Sweboz-homeland provinces with access to the Sea.

Well, as has been pointed out:
A) For the most part that was how the local naval military was.
B) For the most part that was how the local culture was (trade first, and the rest uses what trade can spare)
C) For a substantial part the regions simply lacked the means as required for a military port of their own.

Make no mistake: nobody is saying that it is perfect. But just consider this: to properly accurately represent the way how a fleet would be raised, we'd need to have a lot of mercenary fleets in the region. Basically to simulate the fact that the peoples who had the cogs/etc (virtually every village had a few) would join the army. Just like Antigonos persuaded Agean & Kretan pirates to join his war against the Koinon Hellenon.

But does the game support this kind of mechanism? Well, not RTW... (Incidentally M2TW does, so it could feature in EB2.)

Now for the next thing. There were ancient German boats which were used for military and raiding purposes like the Saxon style boats and the quite similiar Nydam-type boat (the very early ancestor of the famous Viking longship!!), which are dated 300 A.D.. Those are better to be accepted as military boats and they operated all over the DGD coast and they had their home-"ports" there. This is a fact and therefore a hard proof and evidence that it was possible to maintain and have a military fleet in the North-Sea. They have a unique design and were developed exclusively by the ancient Germans, since the Celtic boats or Roman boats were of completely other design and contstruction! Now you may say that those are too late for E.B., but keep in mind that there are hardly boat findings at all (because they are wooden and therefore aren't that much resistent against the curse of time. I know only of two: The Saxon Sutton-Hoo boat, which is dated even much later, but without doubt historians accept that this kind of shiptype was used for the passage from the DGD coast to England centuries before by the Anglo-Saxon invaders, and the Nydam boat, which was used by unlucky Saxons raiding the Danish arounf 300 B.C.) and only one new finding can turn the history of shipbuilding in the DGD-area upside down. Keep in mind that we also don't have that many viking boat findings, but the waters of the North Sea were full of it in the early Middle Age. So I'd make the Nydam boat type available after the Reform of the Sweboz, which takes place very late in the EB timeframe.
By the way there is a large Celtic warship included (don't recall it's name, since I just began a Celtic Aedui campaign - good work till now, I like the presentation of the Celts in EB) Do you really have proof for this one? I really doubt it very much: I only know of leather and fur boats, which were used by Celts but I'm no expert on this.

Wow finally finished. Never posted something huge like this

Well first of all: that's quite indeed way out of time frame. But again I'd like to defer this to earlier remarks:
A) Most notably the one about how a fleet would be gathered. This is quite distinctly separate from the way which is represented through military ports as in-game: RTW enforces that you'd need to build the fleets as a faction (aka ruler). This is perhaps (incidentally in various poleis it was customary for individual, prominent citizens to pay for equipping a ship rather than to draw upon state-funds) quite accurate for the various Mediterrean powers, but in no way is it even close to accurate with societies based on a much smaller scale: i.e. the difference between the size of a Greek or Roman or Carthaginian coastal city with military port and that of a Frisian village, or a Frisian town.

It was much more de-centralised, much more geared towards 'private' commerce/piracy; there was much less of a central thing that enforced the construction of the required infrastructure: there was no need, for every community had it's own ships. (You'd need to.)

B) The one about how a ship would be pulled on land and anchored: i.e. the local villagers would have their ships close at home. There would not be any such thing as a true port in the biggest part of the Netherlands, and certainly not any such thing as a military port.

It boils down to one real simple sentence: AFAIK there was a substantial naval activity (even military at times) on the North and Baltic Seas, but - especially so with the DGD-coast the use of ports and especially military ones was very limitted at best. The ships various commuities would gather a fleet, recruited from the local 'tribesmen' if you will, by simply adding each other's ships to the big ensemble. Not by building a brand new one with the sole purpose of going to war and leaving the 'working' ships at home.

A final note: all such ships could and would be used for piracy, raiding and whatnot; but their primary goal was to be a failry cheap and reliable cargo-carrier.