History advices please

**Maksimus** · 01-07-2008, 03:05

Alexander EB team needs history advices on some issues..

I will give one example :

Scythians and Stepe armies fought as it is widely known all around Hellenic world for various masters (for Example - Pontos sometimes used very large numbers of them in it's wars, Athens had scythian archers at it's walls, Makedonia widely used them and not to say AS, Armenia - the same goes for Celts - but not maybe not so common ih the 'East Map'

)

The point is - I dont have time to search many sources to find out most of those facts - But! I know by reading much various documents that in many cases (even much more than we can imagine) armies of Hellenes (and later East Roman Empire and Persia) often had very small % of the 'backbone' ethnicly loyal troops - the best example is Aegyptos under Hellenes but also Roman Empire after 1051 (after first 'feudal' emperor that made a rule that enable nobles to almost altimes just pay their 'military service' to the Constantinopolis that would later recruit barbarians - which led to catastrophic defeat in 1071 when barb army just 'fled'.. and which led to colaps of the Empire.. )

What I am asking is this - I would like simple answers, What 'other' 'foreign' armies were used in large quantitate outside their homeland as regular military in many cases? By this I count that 'rich' factions 'only' could have the ability to pay that

1 - Koinon Hellenon? (Scythians? Celts?)
2 - Epeiros? (Celts? Illyrians? Scythians? Romans?)
3 - Romanoi? (?)
4 - Makedonia? (Scythians? Celts?)
5 - AS? (Scythians? Indians?)
6 - Aegypt? (Africans? Scythians? Celts?)
7 - Carthage? (?)
8 - Celts? (?)
9 - Baktria? (Indians? Stepe?)

Anyway, this is ment for me to know 'how' to tweak the 'Mercs*txt' if some armies were widely used in the ethnic regions that have non of mers units available as recruitable by 'vanilla' EB.. also to tweak starting armies (like, scythian archers were use even in some very 'far away lands'..)

I would like everyone to comment and I would also like some EB historians to address here if they can

(like Kervanos, Foot, Persian, MAA, Thellos, .. anyone that can give some clear answers)

Thank you!

**cmacq** · 01-07-2008, 03:30

What's the time frame?

**Maksimus** · 01-07-2008, 03:40

272bc - ... EB time

**Maksimus** · 01-07-2008, 05:20

Also..

Can anyone give me some links where I can download EB time historic ART (by that I mean ART that is made as an inspiration of that period - Like any post EB period art is acceptable)

By that I mean - any famous art, sculpture's .. etc that can be downloaded in high-res

EDIT: Found it :D

**Gaius Scribonius Curio** · 01-09-2008, 07:41

I'm not a historian or anything, but I'll give you my opinion if its any help.

All the info here is what I've read from many different sources over the years and I have no idea if its correct. Its just how I understand it.

As you did Maksimus, I thought that Pontos used Scythians in their armies. However as I understand it, it was Mithridates the great that annexed their homelands and formed this large standing army of Scythians. About 80-90BC.

I don't believe that the Celts ever employed a large portion of foreign troops in their armies, in fact I've never heard of that happening. The Romans are well documented as having celtic, more specifically Aedui and Remi, and later germanic (Ubii) cavalry as auxiliries, around Caesar's time. Pompey employed a large proportion of eastern levies belonging to client kings at Pharsalus, but they were still belonging to those Kings.

Prior to this the Romani had relied on their own troops more augmented by the Italian Allies, but in EB they are already assimilated so thats not important.

I'm sure you know that the Carthaginians relied heavily on African, Spanish and Gallic mercenaries so again theres no need for me to comment.

I hope thats sort of waht you're after and if not, sorry for messing you around.

**Maksimus** · 01-09-2008, 08:09

Thank you very much!

Anyway, you know that in EB Aegypt can raise 'Galatians' as a 'standard' army, still, I sure that AS used scythians, and most of Diadokhoi states

(that is, by 300bc the gole was around those states - but not live men - I think that the mercenaries from all around Europe and Asia played important role in fights and battles after Alexandar - also, the way one can express this in the game is either managing the 'more' non-native units recruitable in EDB or adding much more and cheaper mercenaries in DM file

)

**pezhetairoi** · 01-09-2008, 11:26

@G S Curio

About your opinion on the Celts, that may not be entirely correct. It however depends on what you mean by foreign troops, and whether you trust Julius Caesar, who mentioned the Sequani inviting Ariogaisus and several tens of thousands of Germans in to fight for them against the Aedui confederation. If you believe JC, then the Celts did indeed use Germans in at least the Late Republic. And again if you believe JC, I recalled that when (Publius Crassus, son of that rich man?) campaigned in Aquitania under JC, the Aquitanian tribes did engage Celtiberians or Iberi to join th struggle. Though I may have recalled wrong.

**Gaius Scribonius Curio** · 01-10-2008, 00:56

Well as I say I'm not entirely sure.

But what I meant was a sizeable proportion of their standing/usual army was of foreign descent, not allied tribes that became embroiled in the conflict.

I have to say that I do believe Caesar at least in that the Sequani invited the Suebi to invade the lands of the Aedui, but it was my understanding that the Suebi remained a separate entity. Please correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't one of Caesar's excuses to invade Gallia Comata that he wanted to 'protect' the Gallic tribes from incursions made by the Germani, in particular the Helvetii, and the Suebi. Also it was my understanding that the Suebi betrayed the Sequani and demanded land to settle on, though I'm not sure.

The case of Publius Crassus, I believe that again the Celtiberians et al. were enlisted as allies rather than as soldiers of the Aquitanian tribes. But I may be completely wrong!

Anyway the point I am trying to make is that it was my opinion that the Gallic, Belgic and Germanic tribes relied mainly on their own troops for warfare and enlisted the help of other tribes as allies when required. I also believe that tribal loyalties may be the reason that individual groups of warriors didn't fight for other tribes. Which is what Pezhetairoi seems to be suggesting.

**Frostwulf** · 01-10-2008, 01:32

I agree with pezhetairoi on this. Ariovistus and his troops according to JC were brought over as mercenaries. They defeated the Aedui and then turned on the Sequani. Also during this time some of the Belgic and Celtic tribes enlisted Germani to help them against the Romans. The Gauls of the Po Valley also enlisted the Gaesatae mercenaries against the Romans in the 220's.

**Gaius Scribonius Curio** · 01-10-2008, 01:35

Thanks for clearing that up for me.

Now I know.

**Maksimus** · 01-10-2008, 07:53

But how do we separate the 'common use' (as in terms of 'constant' use of non-homeland troops by some factions) that deserve to be 'in' EDB *txt as part of Factional MIC?

By that I ment that if there was a common use of the `germanic` and `stepe` and `celt` armies by some factions - then, what factions deserves to have them in factional MIC?

And, in 272bc which factions they were

note>these questions are a part of the ALX EB mod development