List of building upgrades for valour bonus ?

[Jxrc]

Was wondering if there would be a list of the building requirement to get a valour bonus for each type of unit. Straighforward for some units that only need one kind of building (spearmen, archers, arbs, Xbows, militia, sword, halb, etc) but trickier for those who require a combo. The only one I know for sure is for mounted seargents (master horsebreeder is enough, no need to get more than the initially required spearmaker). Any tips ?

[caravel]

Units depending on the horse breeder line always get their bonus from that line regardless of other dependencies. There are only two units that depend on more than one of the other valour bonus giving master level building building. Futwwa are one and I can't remember the other. IIRC those units get their valour bonus from the first building listed as their build requirement in the unit prod file.

[Jxrc]

Units depending on the horse breeder line always get their bonus from that line regardless of other dependencies.

Are you sure ? I do not remember that feudal or chivalric knights would get +1 valour just by building a master horse breeder

[Haccapelite]

I'm also pretty sure that you don't get a valour bonus to any knight units with the master horse breeder, at least in my Sweden-campaing I don't. Correct me if I'm wrong but IIRC units only get a valour bonus from the master level -building if they can be recruited from a lower level building, for expample you don't get a valour bonus to bulgarian brigands because they are only available from the master bowyer, you only gain the regional bonus.

[caravel]

Are you sure ? I do not remember that feudal or chivalric knights would get +1 valour just by building a master horse breeder

This is because feudal and chivalric knights, among all other knights units, do not depend on the horse breeder, instead they depend on the royal court line of buildings.

Units depending on the horse breeder line...

Haccapelite, correct units that depend on a master level building don't receive the normal valour bonus from it.

[Jxrc]

This is because feudal and chivalric knights, among all other knights units, do not depend on the horse breeder, instead they depend on the royal court line of buildings.

OK thus only the German and Italian can get a valour bonus if they build the baronial Estate (? - the stuff needed for gothic knights) ?

For units which require to kind of buildings, you mentioned that "IIRC those units get their valour bonus from the first building listed as their build requirement in the unit prod file." Where can you get that Unit prod File ? Do not remeber seeing building requirements in the unit description but I could be wrong. There are not many of those for Catholics (I can only remember mounted seargeants, chiv Knights and feudal knights). All other catholic units requiring a combo that I can remeber also require something at master level.

I have not played with a muslim or orthodox faction for a while but I remember that it was not uncommon for some Turkish units at least to require some kind of bow and sword building ...

[caravel]

OK thus only the German and Italian can get a valour bonus if they build the baronial Estate (? - the stuff needed for gothic knights) ?

This would be correct, if the Baronial Estate building gives a valour bonus that is. I'm not sure if it does. Obviously Gothic Knights won't get the bonus anyway becuase they depend on it, but I'm not sure that the building has it. (can't check because I'm at work now)

For units which require to kind of buildings, you mentioned that "IIRC those units get their valour bonus from the first building listed as their build requirement in the unit prod file." Where can you get that Unit prod File ? Do not remeber seeing building requirements in the unit description but I could be wrong. There are not many of those for Catholics (I can only remember mounted seargeants, chiv Knights and feudal knights). All other catholic units requiring a combo that I can remeber also require something at master level.

The unit prod file crusaders_unit_prod11.txt is in the MTW working directory. You can open it with the gnome editor, which is the best way to open it until you get familiarised with it. This is a table where the prerequisites, stats and all other attributes for all units are listed. Changing anything in there changes the game so be careful.

I have not played with a muslim or orthodox faction for a while but I remember that it was not uncommon for some Turkish units at least to require some kind of bow and sword building ...

Futuwwa.

[Jxrc]

This would be correct, if the Baronial Estate building gives a valour bonus that is. I'm not sure if it does. Obviously Gothic Knights won't get the bonus anyway becuase they depend on it, but I'm not sure that the building has it. (can't check because I'm at work now) :

I have only played a few campaigns were I got to the stage where the baronial estate can be used (always start in Early - usually take the minor victory) and it was quite a while ago. I do not remember getting a bonus for Feudal and Chivalric but I will check if I can (I am at work as well )

The unit prod file crusaders_unit_prod11.txt is in the MTW working directory. You can open it with the gnome editor, which is the best way to open it until you get familiarised with it. This is a table where the prerequisites, stats and all other attributes for all units are listed. Changing anything in there changes the game so be careful.:

Great thanks. I Can't wait to see what is required for the bonus for Lithuanian Cavalry !!!! (Master sword is probably in line with their basic insane building requirements). Once you get the valour bonus imagine the impact when you dismount them and get ... archers +1 !!!!

Futuwwa.

Not the same for Ottoman infantry ? Ok fair enough.

[caravel]

I have only played a few campaigns were I got to the stage where the baronial estate can be used (always start in Early - usually take the minor victory) and it was quite a while ago. I do not remember getting a bonus for Feudal and Chivalric but I will check if I can (I am at work as well )



Great thanks. I Can't wait to see what is required for the bonus for Lithuanian Cavalry !!!! (Master sword is probably in line with their basic insane building requirements). Once you get the valour bonus imagine the impact when you dismount them and get ... archers +1 !!!!

Not the same for Ottoman infantry ? Ok fair enough.

There are two units, as I said in my first post in this thread, Futuwwa is definitely one, Ottoman Infantry may be the other but I had thought that they had some very low single dependancy, like only the swordsmith? Can't remember though.

The number of times I've fielded Lithuanian Cavalry is probably, well never! I can't honestly ever remember training any. I'm not one of those people that frantically techs up in order to test some new unit. Also I tend to quit campaigns early as most get dull even before the two thirds point. The only faction I've done a total domination with ever is the Turks and that was years ago. I used to have a screenshot of this, I'll try to dig it out. If Lithuanian Cavalry depend on a horse breeder as part of their dependency - which I expect is the case - then they will take their valour bonus from the Master Horse Breeder.

[Jxrc]

The number of times I've fielded Lithuanian Cavalry is probably, well never! I can't honestly ever remember training any.

No wonder that you only achieved world domination once !!!

More seriously during one of my first game, I had seen that horse breeder (6 turns to complete)in Lithuania would enable me to build Lithuanian Cavalery togerther with the "citadel level" armourer and swordsmith. Silly as I am I thought "those guys must rock since they are so hard to get" .... Do I need to add that I was somehow disappointed once I got the opportunity to use them ...

[caravel]

That is the common sentiment as regards Lithuanian cavalry. MTW has quite a few disappointing units. I don't mind a unit being poor if it's also cheap to build and support, and actually has a role to fill. The problem with MTW is one of redundancy. CA added a glut of units to it, but most are just stopgaps until you can spam build something better. This is what breaks the old combined arms model that worked so well in STW.

For example if one has Feudal Sergeants then why build Spearmen? Why not just quickly tech up to the Spearmakers Workshop and you'll actually get a half decent unit that won't die like flies and run away at every given opportunity If spearmen were the only spear unit available to a faction in a given era and you actually had to use them and make do, then that would add a while new dimension.

[Jxrc]

That is the common sentiment as regards Lithuanian cavalry. MTW has quite a few disappointing units. I don't mind a unit being poor if it's also cheap to build and support, and actually has a role to fill. The problem with MTW is one of redundancy. CA added a glut of units to it, but most are just stopgaps until you can spam build something better. This is what breaks the old combined arms model that worked so well in STW.

Indeed. The problem with Lithuanian cavalry is that the building requirements are huge for an unit that is not much better than mounted seargents. If the requirement was keep-level horse breeder and amrourer (for instance), one could consider using them if the maintenance costs is ok. Since they are far weaker than feudal knights needless to say that I stopped using them without even checking their upkeep cost.

For example if one has Feudal Sergeants then why build Spearmen? Why not just quickly tech up to the Spearmakers Workshop and you'll actually get a half decent unit that won't die like flies and run away at every given opportunity If spearmen were the only spear unit available to a faction in a given era and you actually had to use them and make do, then that would add a while new dimension.

Honestly I do not think that the vanilla spearmen are such a poor unit. First there are some faction who do not get anything better. For instance the Byz if I am not mistaken (perhaps they get the armoured version with VI but I never play as the Byz so I don't know for sure). More fundamentally, you have the timing issue. If with some factions it is quite possible to skip the spearmen cause you have a little cosy staring location (Danes, Sicilians, Egyptian), because you can use other units that can be able to deal with light cavalry (AUM for the elmos - urban militia valour one from Tuscany for the Italians) or because you can spam light cavalry yourself almost immediately (holibar for the French, English - cavalrymen for the Danes and Hungarian- Jinette for the Spanish and Aragones) for other that is simply not an option cause you need to gather troops asap and cannot afford to tech-up. For instance, if you play as the HRE you are bound to raise spearmen "en masse" cause they are the only units that can deal at all with other factions cavalry and cause the only cavalry you can get (mounted seargeants) requires a keep to be built first. Playing as the HRE, I always end-up with loads of spearmen and frnakly they do ok most of the time as long as I do not ask them to do more than 1) killing peasants hired by the French, 2) hold urban militia and keep adverse cavalry busy. Of course they die like flies but they do ok as long as you keep them tidy and avoid that they are flanked. A good illustration is something that happened to me last week-end, I invaded Normandy (which was empty) from Flanders with four units of speamen (no general with any star) and the IA moved two units of royal knights and two holibars in the province (with a three star general natural leader). It was a bridge battle and my four hundred dodgy spearmen manage to prevail (even though it was a close call since I lost about three hundred of them in the process). Since it was a bridge battle it was of course easy to keep my units tidy and all but that is also acheveable in other circumstances (at least against the IA) if you are patient enough. On the other hand, when you use spearmen against feudal men-at-arm's, Byz infantry or AUM that's a completely different story and a good receipe for a mass rout.

Basically, I kind of like spearmen. IMHO, if you treat them right and do not expect too much from them they do their job (as long as your general does not die or flee at least) which something that cannot be said of valor 0 urban militia, slav warriors or peasants.