Welcome to the Genocide Club

[Caius]

Let's keep the Victonia posts in the sub-forum provided, please.

Yes, please.

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[Tribesman]

Let's keep the Victonia posts in the sub-forum provided, please.

Are you trying to stifle the free expression of citizens political views ?

Ok then , on topic , can we have a litte genocide claim over here so we can join the guilt club as a state ?
Tell you what , there was a lot of micks out in van Diemans land , can we get the credit for getting rid of the Tasmans ?

[Banquo's Ghost]

Ok then , on topic , can we have a litte genocide claim over here so we can join the guilt club as a state ?

But we invented modern terrorism - let's leave something for the imperials, eh?

Tell you what , there was a lot of micks out in van Diemans land , can we get the credit for getting rid of the Tasmans ?

It does have the virtue of being a real genocide.

[English assassin]

I'm sorry, but I don't care. I really don't. Or rather, I care to the same extent and for the same reasons that I care about, I don't know, the Roman sack of Jerusalem in 70AD.

Oh, and apparently the Brits invented the concentration camp during the Boer War. Rule Britannia!

Yeah. (We didn't invent death camps though.) This was because those crafty boers refused to stand still in one place to be shot at. So we gathered in all the civilians, and then anyone left outside must be an enemy. What can I say? It worked.

There is a tendency in British historiography to paint an all too rosy picture of the British Empire, of British decolonialism.

I think you are about 40 years behind the times. The only tendency I am aware of is the tendency to blame every problem in the developing world on colonialism, tempered only by the difficulty of reconciling the mutually conflicting desires to present the British as ruthlessly evil and completely incompetent. You are still allowed to teach British history in schools, but only if you make it clear the British were always wrong.

Personally, I'd like a bit of ruthless evilness right now. Starting with the political s hiding in depatments of education up and down the country.

[Mete Han]

[QUOTE=I think you are about 40 years behind the times. The only tendency I am aware of is the tendency to blame every problem in the developing world on colonialism, tempered only by the difficulty of reconciling the mutually conflicting desires to present the British as ruthlessly evil and completely incompetent. You are still allowed to teach British history in schools, but only if you make it clear the British were always wrong.

Personally, I'd like a bit of ruthless evilness right now. Starting with the political s hiding in depatments of education up and down the country.[/QUOTE]

In a way the British Empire is responsible for many on going conflicts in the Middle East, especially around Turkey. It was the British Empire who made the Greeks, Arabs, Armenians (with French and Russians) and Kurds to rebel against the Empire. Of course the outdated structure of the Ottoman Empire was the main reason for its collapse but still... Unfortunately people living in the region still experience the same conflicts that were sown by the British Empire back then. Turks and Greeks still have to deal with England for solving the Cyprus conflict. Turkey still has problems with Armenians and Kurds. And the Arabs after the Turkish rule never had stability.

On the other hand all of these prove the effieciency and effectiveness of the English diplomacy because even after the fall of the British Empire, England continues to influnce Middle East. In that way there are actually admirable and strong features of the British Empire.

[LittleGrizzly]

You are still allowed to teach British history in schools, but only if you make it clear the British were always wrong.

When I was doing GCSE History only 6 years ago this was not true, we covered the slave trade, the two world wars (build up and after effects) and the JFK assasinaton.

Britian has plenty of bad things said about it but good things to, we shipped the slaves over and sold them off but we then abolished the practice. The common theme seemed to be the truth whether it made britian look good or bad.

[Petrus]

Of course the Brits perpetrated genocides during their history. After all, we do know that they are used to eat children.

But i think the genocide term is a bit overused. Colonization and military conquests are based upon the submission of the local populations through violence.

This caused massive civilans massacres all along history but the objective was not to anihilate populations, only to force them into submission, military campaigns to cause terror and remove even the slightest bit of rebellious spirit : cadavers do not work into the fields.

Of course, this does not change the factual evidence of british natural genociders tendancies.

[Justiciar]

Quite so. I brutally massacred a small community of slugs earlier today. Good times.

[Beefy187]

If you hate genociding then everyone can convert to buddhism... Which is not gonna happen is it?

Some more example of genociding

Japan while in Korea
Russians killing Jews
French killing French (French revolution)
Persian killing Greeks (SPARTA!!)

[TevashSzat]

Japan while in Korea

This is something that has always irked me. You put Genocide and WWII in the same sentence and the first thing everyone think of is Hitler + Holocaust.

Japan and WWII? Pearl Harbor and Hiroshima/Nagasaki

What people never remember is how many Chinese civilians died during WWII due to the Japanese.

Total Chinese civilian deaths are estimated at around 16-17million I believe. Although many were due to being caught to the crossfire, the Japanese strategy right before 1940(I think) basically had them killing everyone, looting everything, and burning everything.

Furthermore, Japanese history taught in Japan often uses textbooks that just coincidentally forgets such facts or just glances over them which should have but did not create international outrage.

This topic is still remembered in China by alot of people and partly accounts for the not overly friendly Chinese/Japanese diplomatic relations

[Papewaio]

Nan jing... 'nuff said.

[Beefy187]

Dont know how its done in Japanese history lessons because I moved from Japan before I had the chance to learn history.

Issue in Japan is extremely low nationalism due to loss of WW2 and storys about how bad our ancesters were. Several books and movies came out which gives alternative view point that Japan back then werent evil overlord but im guessing most Japanese people are constantly taught that Japan are bad. I heard several schools makes their students go to Korea (dont know about China) and makes them apologize (Which I dont think is particulary fabulous idea) So you can hardly say the history book makes them forget about it.

Now the big secret.. I am also half chinese so im not completely going to defend Japan. But firstly every country who participated in WW2 did something quite similar. So I guess no body can just blame Hitler, Japan and Mussoulini for all the tragedy in WW2.

(I read this in some book.. So I could be wrong)
The casualty in China was incredibly high for several reason. One for the guerilla tactic that Chinese army used. Second because Chinese army didnt use uniform. And third because China was having a civil war at the same time (National party vs Communist) So cant blame Japan only for all the casualties.

Also lot of events such as Rape of Nanjing are still debated whether it really took place or not. Strictly speaking Japan never even declared war on modern day China (communist government) but only on modern day Taiwan (Nationalist government) and communist government tend to blame others for their tragic situation.

Again im not justifying everysingle action that the Japanese did so dont turn this in to massive hate beefy and the Japs thread.

[InsaneApache]

I don't think that Great Britain practised genocide as a policy. After all the empire was born out of trade and domination of markets, mainly to keep the French in check.

Having said that, my grandad, who was in the British Army in India, always said that we (British) were not the benign paternalists depicted in newsreels etc.

However, we redeemed ourselves in 1939-45, when for nearly 18 months we stood alone in Europe against the Nazi menace (Godwin notwithstanding), otherwise you'd all be speaking German. *

*Unless you are a German of course

[Mete Han]

Issue in Japan is extremely low nationalism due to loss of WW2 and storys about how bad our ancesters were. Several books and movies came out which gives alternative view point that Japan back then werent evil overlord but im guessing most Japanese people are constantly taught that Japan are bad. I heard several schools makes their students go to Korea (dont know about China) and makes them apologize (Which I dont think is particulary fabulous idea) So you can hardly say the history book makes them forget about it.

Well the fact of the matter is if the Axis forces won the WWII then it would be United States apologizing for what they did in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Japan was pasifized by the Allies after the war for creating a new market and establishing a solid frontier against communism (like Germany). The Germans and Japanese as far as I see it hate their ancestors because the Allies had a lot to say about the defeated nations eduacation policies and what not. I mean Germans and Japanese shouldn't be embarrased of their ancestors because Allies were as bad. Whole towns were destroyed in Europe because of carpet bombing for just destroying a few factories. On the other hand I think what the Germans did to Jews is terrible and totally unacceptable but the Pope and all the others just looked the other way. If one is to apologize then we should all be embarrassed and apologize actually, not only the Germans and Japanese. It is in our blood, unfortuantely...

[Beefy187]

Well the fact of the matter is if the Axis forces won the WWII then it would be United States apologizing for what they did in Nagasaki and Hiroshima. Japan was pasifized by the Allies after the war for creating a new market and establishing a solid frontier against communism (like Germany). The Germans and Japanese as far as I see it hate their ancestors because the Allies had a lot to say about the defeated nations eduacation policies and what not. I mean Germans and Japanese shouldn't be embarrased of their ancestors because Allies were as bad. Whole towns were destroyed in Europe because of carpet bombing for just destroying a few factories. On the other hand I think what the Germans did to Jews is terrible and totally unacceptable but the Pope and all the others just looked the other way. If one is to apologize then we should all be embarrassed and apologize actually, not only the Germans and Japanese. It is in our blood, unfortuantely...

Agree with you totally

Besides me being sorry doesnt do much does it? What matters is what we do now. If you get our generation as premier then we might have some trouble dealing with China, Korea and North Korea...

If its only me, my family served as docters. So I dont think they killed anyone

[Mete Han]

Agree with you totally

Besides me being sorry doesnt do much does it? What matters is what we do now. If you get our generation as premier then we might have some trouble dealing with China, Korea and North Korea...

If its only me, my family served as docters. So I dont think they killed anyone

Actually it does in a way. I mean bashing your ancestors all the time for some bad (from your point of view) thing they did is not fair. Do you have any ideas how many young Japanese died (sacrificed their lives) for you (the next generations) to have a better life. Our ancestors (american, turkish, japanese etc...) went to certain death knowingly, willingly and yes they did bad things but think about how they would feel if they knew how their descents bashing them. We have no right to feel sorry. But that does not mean we should continue killing each other. The nations (politicians or whatever) in the world should stop putting each other in the place where individuals have to sacrifice.

[Beefy187]

Sounds good

[MiniMe]

Russians killing Jews

Not quite so.
If you were referring to Ze Good Old Days of Tsarist Russia, it would be unwise not to mention where exactly the Pogroms took place and our good Ukrainian brethren.
If you were referring to the Ze Revolution or Ze Good Old Days of Stalin Regime, well... everybody killed everybody, not that we cared whom to kill. Russians, jews, poles, balts, mountain and asian dwellers... all of us gladly took their part in it on the both sides of it, no innocent person or tribe left

Sidenote: me have russian, ukrainian, georgian and jewish blood in my veins and accusing me in defending russians against the rest would be ridiculous.

Persian killing Greeks (SPARTA!!)

do you actually know how that little war started with? ever heard about persian city named Sardis and its barbequed inhabitants?

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

Furthermore, Japanese history taught in Japan often uses textbooks that just coincidentally forgets such facts or just glances over them which should have but did not create international outrage.

Trust me, it happens everywhere. All nations, to a certain extent, try to cover up their crimes from WWII. It's not quite as bad here, but reading the textbook for high school history in Canada was really quite amusing. There were four or so full pages on the London Blitz, and none on Dresden, Chemnitz, and Hamburg. The Eastern Front is also conveniently left out, which leads most of the students I talked to to believe that the Soviets were merely a thorn in the side of Germany, and the Allies really did all the work.

[Adrian II]

Me, I am happy that there has been some sort of re-assesment of France's colonial past in recent years. Colonialism was not entirely negative. Some of the more positive and constructive elements are nowadays part of the school curricula as well.

If only because people in certain African regions speak better French than a lot of French..

[Beefy187]

Not quite so.
If you were referring to Ze Good Old Days of Tsarist Russia, it would be unwise not to mention where exactly the Pogroms took place and our good Ukrainian brethren.
If you were referring to the Ze Revolution or Ze Good Old Days of Stalin Regime, well... everybody killed everybody, not that we cared whom to kill. Russians, jews, poles, balts, mountain and asian dwellers... all of us gladly took their part in it on the both sides of it, no innocent person or tribe left

Sidenote: me have russian, ukrainian, georgian and jewish blood in my veins and accusing me in defending russians against the rest would be ridiculous.


do you actually know how that little war started with? ever heard about persian city named Sardis and its barbequed inhabitants?

I was reffering to the Tsarist Russia.

If you dont mind could you tell me what happened in Sardis?

[MiniMe]

Well, the The Sack of Sardis was the prime cause of Greco Persian Wars that began as persian punitive raid.

It is actually very annoying that nobody when they speak of those wars, cares to mention that:
1. Ionian greeks never were Persian conquest target. Persians got Ionians (and the future troubles) for free after they've repelled Lydyan attack and subdued those who's been Ionian masters;
2. Persian punitive raid was successful. Athens were sacked. Twice, methinx.
3. Greek hoplites were heavy infantry. Having a heavy infantry status in ancient greek city-states meant you are from the rich class of slave-owners. And to defend yours freedom and civil rights at those times also meant to defend yours slave-ownership.

[Beefy187]

cheers

[Conradus]

2. Persian punitive raid was successful. Athens were sacked. Twice, methinx.

I thought it was only sacked once in the Persian Wars, after the battle of Thermopylae and before Salamis (480BC?)

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

If you were referring to the Ze Revolution or Ze Good Old Days of Stalin Regime, well... everybody killed everybody, not that we cared whom to kill. Russians, jews, poles, balts, mountain and asian dwellers... all of us gladly took their part in it on the both sides of it, no innocent person or tribe left

Indeed. At one point, 10% of the Russian population had been arrested.

[MiniMe]

I thought it was only sacked once in the Persian Wars, after the battle of Thermopylae and before Salamis (480BC?)

480 BC and 479 BC, Salamin inbetween, Platea afterwards

[Conradus]

You mean just before they left it? It's a pillage then, but since the town was already theirs and there weren't any defenders anymore I wouldn't call it a victory.

[PershsNhpios]

I am sorry, I will not join this discussion as I don't have enough time to write what I would say on some subject mentioned.
However I find it irritating that, seeing as I have just joined the backroom in the failing search of decent conversation, this subject is pattered and scarred hither and thither with little remarks to the effect of, "Why do you people constantly have to talk silly-billy politics? Is that all you do? Can we not just leave it?", in a Political section of the forum.

There is enough one-line sarcasm everywhere else on the forum, this is the place which self-defines as respectable speech and argument.

[Evil_Maniac From Mars]

I am sorry, I will not join this discussion as I don't have enough time to write what I would say on some subject mentioned.
However I find it irritating that, seeing as I have just joined the backroom in the failing search of decent conversation, this subject is pattered and scarred hither and thither with little remarks to the effect of, "Why do you people constantly have to talk silly-billy politics? Is that all you do? Can we not just leave it?", in a Political section of the forum.

There is enough one-line sarcasm everywhere else on the forum, this is the place which self-defines as respectable speech and argument.

Personally, I think this is a topic for the Monastary.

I always find the Backroom slows down at certain points in the year. It always regains momentum, and is one of the better places on the forums I visit for educated debate.

[Fragony]

LOLomgwtfme2