Archery tactics

[Quirinus]

I've read in plenty of guides that ask for massed archer units on walls that can, supposedly, win most battles. I notice that a lot of them were written quite a long time ago, so I'm not sure if they're talking about v1.0 or something.

I play on v1.3, and they first thing an enemy does when I sally forth is to move out of the range of my archers, and, I've found that they will studiously avoid being in range of the archers on the walls, including breaking off charges. So is having a whole bunch of archers still a good way of defending a city?

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

In v1.5 at least, massed archers on normal Stone Walls are still useful when the enemy is assaulting your town - as you may expect, they have to come close to attack with their siege weapons and enabling you to cause your intended damage.

The best tactic in assaults based around Stone Walled cities is to attack the siege weapons with flaming arrows - especially the seige towers - rams can usually be dealt with by the wall projectiles, so they don't need to be destroyed by your archers quite as urgently. Once a siege tower ends up ablaze, that's one less path the foes have onto your walls.

The only problem with the archer's is their poor hand-to-hand combat. If a siege tower does make it to the wall, and often it does, then you usually are in trouble. Infantry of a decent quality often has to be rushed up to the wall as quickly as possible to hold of the surge which will soon be rampaging out of it. Ladders, which are indestructible anyway, aren't quite so problematic - the troops climbing up them emerge one at a time. This allows your archers to pick them off more easily in hand to hand combat.

As you have said though, the AI avoids the city when the player sallies and goes on the defensive, so they aren't quite as useful then.

Massed archers behind Wooden Walls and Palisades also play a role in dealing with the enemy - in this case rams, which the towers of these walls don't quite have the power to deal with.

Large Stone Walls and Huge Stone Walls actually handicap archers, since the enemy builds stronger and more effective siege towers when assaulting - these take much more than flaming arrows from archers to be set alight. They also fire on troops on the walls with more force than the earlier model of siege tower. Archers, usually only being lightly armored, are vulnerable to this.

Good luck Quirinus

[Quirinus]

I..... see. I feel retarded now. D= Thanks for the pointer.

[Caeser The III]

for me it works better in v1.0 for the arrows to work, but i usally but a unit of(lets say hastati) on the wall, just in case a seige tower reaches the wall.

[placenik]

And if enemy just stay and starve you?

[Paradox]

And if enemy just stay and starve you?

Err...Why would the enemy back down if they have siege towers ready to obliterate your army inside the city? I don't think this ever happened.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

And if enemy just stay and starve you?

As Fahad I has said, it's very rare for the AI to simply sit there and wait for the garrison to surrender. In my experiences they almost always attack when they feel that they have the means to do so, even when waiting would be more advantageous.

[Caeser The III]

ive had this happen to me once or twice

[placenik]

As Fahad I has said, it's very rare for the AI to simply sit there and wait for the garrison to surrender. In my experiences they almost always attack when they feel that they have the means to do so, even when waiting would be more advantageous.

In the other words this is AI dumbness exploit topic
No matter, my point was that archers are great in defending, but it can become tricky if you try to sallay out with them, especially if facing some cavalery, trouble especially being getting out through gatesfast enough. Sallays are also good to weaken enemy before he attacks. Any ideas?

[mrdun]

Sometimes, when you sally, what you can do is move your entire army out and set them up into formation, the AI does not try to attack, preferring to retreat as far away from the walls as possible.

Move your archers infront of your main force, follow then right to the edge of the map and keep firing on them, they will huddle into the corner trying to escape your arrows, easy kills. yet another exploit.

[Celt Centurion]

I find myself in agreement with mrdun.

When the enemy army moves out of range of the archers on the walls, I usually go after them.

I start by moving heavy infantry out to form a protective wall for the archers. This will usually have heavy infantry facing outward at the flanks along with a more fast moving infantry behind the archers so that the archers are in a box formed by infantry. There will be what cavalry I can have on the extended flanks.

March the box toward the enemy and let the archers have them. Avoid infantry combat if possible but sometimes they will try to overpower you. I've found that this strategy normally destroys most of the enemy cavalry who sacrifice themselves on my infantry's spears, as well as punches holes in their infantry with arrows.

After this has been successful, send your empty quivered archers back inside the walls. When they are safely inside your walls, bring your infantry in, usually one unit at a time being watchful for the enemy attacking your backside. If you are still threatened, use the leapfrog method, moving an infantry unit back a bit, and then another forming a defensive line so that even the last unit to move back is still covered by friends. Four to five units of archers, which I usually have, can cut an enemy army down by 25% or more in just one sally. I have had very small armies (with lots of archers) defeat full stacks spread over 2-3 turns. If the enemy has no cavalry, it's even easier. In my present campaign as Germania, Thrace keeps attacking me with mainly hoplites and phalangites, and my archers are nimble enough to cause a lot of damage, and then get away from them!

Two nights ago, my archers cut down a Thracian army by 55% in one sally. The next turn when I was ready to sally again, the Thracian army was gone and heading East!

Archers can leave the walls, but you need to protect them with infantry, and beware of enemy cavalry.

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion

[Caius]

As Fahad I has said, it's very rare for the AI to simply sit there and wait for the garrison to surrender. In my experiences they almost always attack when they feel that they have the means to do so, even when waiting would be more advantageous.

In Medium, the AI wait to the last turn, but sometimes, they let you starve.

[TruePraetorian]

That's odd, I play VH mode and the enemy usually waits if they have the larger army. When I sally I hardly ever see them scramble to the corner.

I always try to keep some onagers in my garrison, then park themup as close as I can so they attack the enemy who retreats away from the walls.

[x-dANGEr]

I'm not sure if this fits in here, but since Horse Archers are a part of archery, I'll give it a shot anyway.

Who really benefit from sallying out as defenders are (as you might have already guessed) Horse Archers. If you are skilled enough to use them effectively, you can sally out each turn, flood the enemy with arrows only to come back with full ammo next time.

Using them effectively:

At once rush all your HA (HA = Horse Archers) units outside the walls, circle the enemy to force a vulnerable flank to one of your units, rain death upon them.

Things to note:

1. Always keep a close eye at the enemy's movements, do NOT use "Skirmish" mode against enemy cavalry units as it usually ends up with your HA unit in melee combat, or just too far. Do NOT use "Canterberian Circle" when "skirmishing" with the enemy units. Or, you can just use "Skirmish" mode and become well known with the times it does the job bad, and handle those specific times your own with "manual-skirmishing".

2. CC (HA's special skill) > Archers. "Skirmish" mode > Slow units. Manual Skirmish > Fast units. CC does not go along with Skirmish, except occasionally against slow melee units.


Sorry for the rather broken structure of this post, I'm just a mess right now, attending to good old RTW looking for some soothing memories.And well, this topic reminded me about gold chiveroned Scythian Horse Archers...

[Quirinus]

mrdun & Celt Centurion, doesn't the enemy charge back if you fire at them? I don't know, as I have never tried, but if you charge cavalry into the rear unit, the last few units will usually break off their redeployment to fend off the raid. I assume that that is true for archers as well?

[placenik]

Why AI can sally out multiply times per turn, but player can't (1.5)?

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Why AI can sally out multiply times per turn, but player can't (1.5)?

It's sadly, one of R:TW's unfortunate bugs. It can get fairly irritating - sometimes the AI don't sally out of their city at all. This leaves you as the player simply sitting there waiting for the countdown to finish and a draw to occur. If the battle timer countdown is switched off, you are forced to quite simply quit, instantly losing the battle.

[GamblerTuba]

Getting slightly off topic but be careful if you are besieging and the AI sallies out to meet you. If you get all the defenders routing at the same time, you had better choose end battle. I had the battle timer on but chose (accidentally) to continue battle.

Well i just sped things up and waited while the few remaining enemies left the gate, saw my army, peed their pants, and ran back to the city square over and over. Well, the timer reaches zero... and keeps counting into negative numbers!

I was able to win by moving as far from the city as possible and killing the remaining defenders before they could reenter the city.

[placenik]

One abuse of that:
Ingredients:
1 battle timer on
2 HA unit
3 town garnisoned with infantry (even if they are archers) and no real light cavalery, may work if there is general/heavy cavalery

How to do:
1 besiege town with HA, AI will sally out being virtually much stronger than you
2 kill enemy melee units with arrows and stay out of range of their archers
3 when you waste all arrows, triple game speed and run from corner to corner untill DRAW
4 repeat process, AI will sally out again
5 when all AI melee units are dead, shater enemy archers if you can (shoot while moving which ordinary archers pursuing you can't), or simply charge them (has something to do with AI who will not try to stand ground to repel attack, but rather try to scrimish away)

Result:
1 town taken in 1 turn with single unit
2 HA with lot of expirience

[Quirinus]

It's sadly, one of R:TW's unfortunate bugs. It can get fairly irritating - sometimes the AI don't sally out of their city at all. This leaves you as the player simply sitting there waiting for the countdown to finish and a draw to occur. If the battle timer countdown is switched off, you are forced to quite simply quit, instantly losing the battle.

Yes! I've had this happen to me a few times-- exceedingly irritating. It's one of the reasons I never play siege battles anymore, unless the odds are overwhelmingly against me, or if I have elite troops that I'd prefer not to lose. Besides which, I think autocalc doesn't factor in walls when calculating the battle results.

[Celt Centurion]

mrdun & Celt Centurion, doesn't the enemy charge back if you fire at them? I don't know, as I have never tried, but if you charge cavalry into the rear unit, the last few units will usually break off their redeployment to fend off the raid. I assume that that is true for archers as well?

Sometimes they do charge, that's why I mentioned a "box" of infantry with archers inside. You can "point" your infantry to guard the rear.

Besides the box, I sometimes have a line of heavy infantry with archers behind them, two or three units of HI guarding the outer flank, and using my own wall to guard the other flank.

The idea is to have something between the archers and the enemy whichever formation you use. Even one group of spearmen behind the archers facing rearward will discourage a cavalry attack from the rear.

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion

[Quirinus]

I see...... though heavy infantry runs relatively slowly, no? I interpreted mrdun's strategy as relying on the fast-moving archers to catch up with the sieging army's rear guard, which is no mean feat itself, having to move out of the games and such. Is heavy infantry fast enough to do that before the enemy gets out of range?

[Caius]

My archer tactic in open field is to engage enemies with infantry, and shoot them from the rear with archers and skirmish troops. Death are more when you shoot them from the rear.

Simple, but sometimes the AI follow your archers, killing them.

[The Wandering Scholar]

They need cav support as cav normally atttacks them. Although spears would fit the bill.

[Celt Centurion]

I see...... though heavy infantry runs relatively slowly, no? I interpreted mrdun's strategy as relying on the fast-moving archers to catch up with the sieging army's rear guard, which is no mean feat itself, having to move out of the games and such. Is heavy infantry fast enough to do that before the enemy gets out of range?

Good question Quirinus.

When I "start battle", I have my archers on the walls and the heavy infantry at the gate just below the archers. My cavalry are at the two flanking gates ready to move out.

Once "start battle" has been pushed, the archers usually fire an opening volley and the enemy army will either move out of range or charge the infantry I start marching out the gate as the first two things I do after "start battle" is get the cavalry moving out the flanking gates and the infantry marching out the gate closest to the enemy.

As I just stated, the enemy will usually begin to march out of range of the archers, but sometimes, they charge at the infantry! If they charge at the infantry, the archers have a shooting gallery giving the enemy the maximum opportunity to die for their King. If the enemy keeps sacrificing themselves to your arrowheads, stop all but one unit of your infantry from marching out and take advantage of the opportunity.

If the enemy wisely chooses to move out of range, let your infantry form the protective line and march your archers out to be between the protective line and your wall. Do not send all of your archers down from the wall at the same time as they will logjam going through the doors. Instead, send one unit of archers while the others "stand to" on the walls. When one is safely out the gate, send another and so forth. This will give you some archers on the walls should the enemy decide to attack your infantry and archers when they are outside the gates. Once you have your archers out, move your protective line and archers to where the infantry can protect them and your archers can shoot. Once they are out of arrows, withdraw them inside the gates under protection of the infantry. If the archers have done enough damage that you can drive the enemy off, do so if you wish. If you wish, you can also bring everybody back inside the walls to repeat the process next turn.

Strength and Honor

Celt Centurion