Go Grog Go Grog Go Go Go!
Re: Blitz All Challenge
Go Grog Go Grog Go Go Go!
frogbeastegg's TWS2 guide....it's here!
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Re: Blitz All Challenge
Empire report, turn 40:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
97 territories are now under my despicable rule.
The armies are on final marches to Arguin and Dongola. 3 Naval fleets have 2 stacks en-route to Tripoli. England and spain are in the final throes... tick tock tick tock...
Re: Blitz All Challenge
Empire report, turn 43:
What's this? The pope excommunicating me, after all I've done for him?
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
How ungrateful, still might have something to do with the HRE stack attacking Rome
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Rome falls. Pope Gregory is not amused.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Victory, turn 43, all 106 old world provinces captured:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
Mines a double pepperoni with extra jalapenos
Re: Blitz All Challenge
Excellent Grog, really amazing.
Originally Posted by Sooh
Re: Blitz All Challenge
All Hail Grog, the New King of Blitz!
frogbeastegg's TWS2 guide....it's here!
Come to the Throne Room to play multiplayer hotseat campaigns and RPGs in M2TW.
Re: Blitz All Challenge
EDIT: post deleted
Last edited by Askthepizzaguy; 01-23-2008 at 19:44.
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Re: Blitz All Challenge
I can see the pics
atpg, your screenshot of victory with England shows 106 provinces, not 108
frogbeastegg's TWS2 guide....it's here!
Come to the Throne Room to play multiplayer hotseat campaigns and RPGs in M2TW.
Re: Blitz All Challenge
Indeed!
Forgive my oversight. 106 it is.
But I still cannot see the pictures.
Yes, the pictures are simply little white boxes with X's in them. Perhaps photobucket's bandwidth was exceeded?
Or whichever site you use?
Last edited by Askthepizzaguy; 01-23-2008 at 01:45.
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Re: Blitz All Challenge
At long last the pictures are now viewable.
...Impressive.
Most Impressive.
(notes record has been shattered to pieces... not even close)
AAARRRGGGGHHHH!!!
THE SHAME!!! THE SHAME!!!
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Re: Blitz All Challenge
ALL HAIL BLITZ MASTER GROG, RECENTLY CROWNED HIGH COMMANDER AND BLITZKRIEG WARFARE CHAMPION!
Former Blitzmaster ATPG presiding over the title ceremony
Master Grog:
Not only have you shattered my record, but indeed you have demonstrated a mastery of blitz warfare that I did not think was possible. You managed to shave not one or two, but several turns off of my time. You truly have applied the lessons and principles of which I can only claim a small amount of credit for teaching the members of the forum.
Before I was the master, I was but the learner. Now I am the learner again. I would be most pleased to hear your advice on blitz war, that I might make a reasonable attempt to match your incredible achievement.
But for the here and now, you are to be rewarded with the only tangible evidence of your blitz mastery other than the proof itself demonstrated here today to me, the former blitzmaster.
Grog, for a long time, no one could credibly claim or prove that their campaign map skills were better than mine. But you have easily demonstrated your abilities are superior. My official blitzmaster title, indicating my status as champion of the realm, is hereby bequeathed to you, until such time that I can defeat your record or at least match it and share in the victory.
My previous title:
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I can no longer claim this title. It is yours.
__________________
"Master tactician, holder of walls, sacker of cities, great crusader, superb diplomat, pious and pure, intelligent, witty, faithful and charming, Praetor of Rome, Emperor of Byzantium, Kaiser of the Holy Roman Empire, lord of Spain, France, Milan, Venice, Russia, Poland, Hungary, and Timbuktu, King of the Britons, Defeater of the Saxons, sovereign of all England, Patron Saint of War, Beloved Ruler of all Europe, Greatest Generalissimo of all time, and a damn fine lover to boot." -Master Grog, true champion of blitz warfare
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Re: Blitz All Challenge
War Marshall Grog steps up to the podium. His basic chainmail armour is soaked with the blood of a thousand vanquished foes, and torn with the cut of a thousand blades. His ageing but powerful frame is ruined with many war wounds and scars of battle.
As he approaches the poduim, a ragged cheer arises from his ramshackle armies of peasants, pilgrims, drafted Militia and bloodied mercs. A nod of acknowledgment silences the loyal troops of the Holy Roman Empire.
He turns to the crowded hall, surveys the assembled host with a steely glint in his eye. A hush falls over the room.
Raising one mailed fist high in the air, he bellows "TURTLE POWER" before collapsing stone dead...
Re: Blitz All Challenge
On a more serious note, I could certainly write a book or a least a fat thread on what I learned playing this campaign, so I'll just do a basic assessment of where I varied from the ATPG blitzkrieg Theorum.
Ok first off faction and difficulty. I used HRE on VH/VH standard vanilla 1.3 (1.2 with kingdoms).
Why HRE?
I wanted a castle-based catholic faction. I planned on 1:3 castle:town ratio for quick mailed knights everywhere. Also, they have good centralish position, can snag a lot of rebel land off the bat if you are quick. Once you have 15+ territories in western/central europe you are unstoppable.
However the main advantage is proximity to rome, but you start with no diplomat and princess is way up north. So turn 1 I build a townhall at bologna, turn 3 train diplomat, turn 4-5 get alliance/perfect then call crusade. I got lucky here as papal states diplomat approached florence (captured turn2) in turn 3 AI moves, so I grabbed alliance and perfect then and called crusade to antioch turn 3. (note: secure initial tribute: usually accepts 100/5 gift after gift 100 + gift map info, then incrementally increase gift to 100/10, then open offer provinces to perfect)
Why VH/VH? well I always play all my battles VH, so no worries there. I chose VH for stategic map as this makes the AI stupidly aggressive, which works to my advantage tbh. I'll expand on this later.
Re: Blitz All Challenge
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
I never play on anything besides VH VH. What would be the point? Hurt me plenty.
Your biggest differences IMHO were the faction of course (I did 50 provinces by turn 16, myself with the HRE) and the destination of your initial crusade. You chose Antioch with HRE, I chose Cordoba with France/England.
I dont think I made any real mistakes other than the choosing of Cordoba for the crusade. I think if I had chosen HRE and done antioch I would have had more success.
You made the better choices; I feel our blitzing ability is rather even. There's only so much you can do in a single turn, and the maximum with the HRE clearly bests the maximum of England. They start with more and are closer to the Pope.
But again, congrats. I have changed my sig line to reflect your victory.
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Re: Blitz All Challenge
Basic overview of campaign objectives/timeline:
From the start I planned to do this with two crusades, I took a lot of ATPG advice on-board, but I didnt read either of the tactical threads (although I remember some of them in part from first time round, and I did look at the 'win' screens), mainly as i didnt want to bias my expectations. However a lot of the advice ATPG gives on this thread is very sound, especially the exploitation of crusade mechanics.
I didnt know for sure I'd beat ATPG's 58 turn mark until about turn 30 I'd guess (as detailed above). If you had asked me between turn 10-20 I'd have doubted it..nearly quit at this point.
I knew to get a good start I'd need early crusade, pure luck saw this called turn 3 as detailed above. This means 3-13 I have free armies to play with and move in any direction, so I'd thought to use this to make early in-roads to russia and try to capture most of Byzantine before establishing a strong base at antioch (I am a dab hand at mastering antiochearly). My mistakes here were sparse mercs east of Thorn, so northern stack became really threadbare breaking russia.
Also, Milan/Poland/Hungary all chose this time to attack so things were a bit strained for a while, I ended up circling my crusaders back to the eastern front and ravaging poland/hungary as Antioch fell. Milan I beat off with a constant attrition of town milita and fake sieges to hurt their economy (read 1 chap with a ladder heh), before finally dumping a heavy post-crusade stack on Milan/genoa.
So basically turn 1-10. I managed 1.9 province a turn. turn 11-20 this fell to just 1.1 turn as I needed to get things under control. So in reality, I did relatively turtle for a short period (and hit a few rebels here and there to get more generals etc) just to get things stable and get my economy kicking to fund a truely stupendos second crusade plus asscociated invasions.
Now this brings me onto early financial/economy objectives. HRE is a powerhouse ecomonically once you have the northern ports and italian cities all joined. my power house objective for turn 20 was castles at Hamburg, thorn, bern/innsbruck, Bran with everything in the middle of that a town. I mostly accomplished this and had a fairly powerful economy cooking along. i even built quite a few farms and markets etc. In the whole 36 turns, I was only in debt once, less than 2k florins..
(blitz-hint: only build outlying dirt roads when YOU need them, make the AI chuff along in the mud until you are ready to go that way.)
By the time crusade 2 was launched (turn 26) I had done some farily heavy prepping so that turns 26-36 would see me break the world or lose. I initally launched over 10 generals, at one point I had 16 crusade armies in operation, each in a different non catholic province. (I'll do a seperate post on armies and fighting later.)
Crusade two was lauched for Gaza. Now why Gaza you ask? wll my masterplan was to explode in all directions on crusade two and smash the world with the plan being that at turn 36 any remaining army could turn for gaza and suffer minimal deserting losses on path of destruction (the AI really has no idea what to do! stacks flying past everywhere!). therefore the plan was to use the early part of crusade 2 to reach bulgar/timbuktu/baghdad which i more or less achieved, then snap in and crush everything east and south
I also used the last few turns (31-36) of free crusade movement to position heavy stacks on inverness/stockholm/lisbon/iraklion for a MASSIVE attack once the crusade was won on 36 (use all your crusade movement, win crusade, then attack everywhere.
Ok so why did I leave UK and spain till late? Sacking Income plain and simple. If I blitz them early, poor income to logistics ratio. By destroying them 'late game' I get 8-20k a city cha-ching pays for everything and a few abbeys etc.
Once crusade armies drop off the organic expansion path at the end of the crusade , just disband any spare straight away.
the last turns 40-43 were really waiting on the final push on arguin/dongola and quelling the last sparks of resistance on the british isles, have to say,england made me work for it more than any other faction.. (Byz did well too, I just out-logistics them)
I'll post some more on military and battles next, then do logistics/general stuff.
Re: Blitz All Challenge
The man knows what he's talking about. Glad to see my suggestions helped.
You've taught me a thing or two. I thought it would take 3 crusades, and with France/England it does take that many. I am intrigued.
I will see what I can do with the HRE, as soon as I get in some more practice and lay waste to all imperial forces in my War for Independence campaign with Sicily.
I have much to do in this game. This will take time. At least I'm no longer bored with the game.
I highly encourage all players and readers of this forum to try my challenges.
Even if you cannot beat mine or especially Grog's score, just do your best and have fun for goodness sake.
It helps me in particular to swallow my pride and realize that only one person can truly be the best of them all. The rest of us just have to strive for our PERSONAL best.
Mark my words... I WILL improve MY personal best and shatter MY record as well.
58 turns for ATPG? I don't think so. My new goal is 45. I believe it is attainable for me to come close to Grog, but to be honest, beating him looks dicey.
Last edited by Askthepizzaguy; 01-23-2008 at 19:49.
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Re: Blitz All Challenge
You must have used ballistae effectively. I never really included them in my blitzes except for Paris/Rhiems for England and Bern for France.
I see now that the non-crusading middle portion MUST include them to avoid excommunication and cause severe damage to the enemy.
True, Grog?
And spies... I'm thinking more spies.
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Re: Blitz All Challenge
Yep, just two crusades. I really think a high 30's win is possible, if you call crusade turn3. I got caught up with logistics and unexpected resistance toward the end somewhat, although as mentioned this was offset by sacking income from Spain/england.
Another thing I would do is make Inverness/Arguin+dongola/Jedda/Bulgar first crusade 'targets' (or be there at crusade drop off) with a mid east province as the target (I just like antioch, easy to defend and grab alepo/adana, keep one as castle = insta powerbase to repel egypt/turks). Castle the lot then reverse-smash back into the world.
I'm going off to dig up screenshots and make a military post next (be a while),so heres a little teaser:
You have all of northern france. england have Caen.
Your army is general, 2 cav, 3 varied spear, 6 trash (various peasant bows/cheap milita), and is just inside the border north of Angers.
England has 4-5 units in Caen and a toughish 14 stack a move out.
No more troops available.
How do you lay siege to Caen that move without the roaming stack attacking your siege army next turn?
Re: Blitz All Challenge
perhaps you could distract the big stack with your general, as he is a high priority target. Move your general and position him close to the big stack, and just so that the big stack cannot attack both targets.
If I know my AI, they will fall for the bait. What was your answer?
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Re: Blitz All Challenge
Hmm used ballista/siege late in spain, although I wasn't really rushing here as my timeline was locked by Arguin/dongola by this time (ie: I knew I had spare turns to win spain/england)
Didn't use spies much at all 9no more than 5-6 i think) and then they were passive.
I do cav/inf splits. ie: cav will rush a place and build siege, inf arrives next turn to push in. works ok in western europe. ie: for dongola I just rushed cav stack direct after Gaza fell, and picked up 2 loads of tribesmen a turn or so out to siege with.
I also do fake sieges occasionally (mainly for economic/mischief reasons), or deliberatly siege understrength to draw a sally then push in that turn. Lost count how many times I used Pilgrims to push gates in..
As for other agents:
2-3 diplomats on rome. I had 2 on rome, then 1 shadowing the pope as well later on. I quite often needed 3 diplomatic sessions in the later turns to keep pope happy.. Start every turn on perfect too.
Anyway off to get some battle shots uploaded.
Re: Blitz All Challenge
I throw one peasant into the 'wrong' side of the AI army box, then place one peasant slightly off the road between the AI stack and caen.
On the AI turn, they first HAVE to clear the zone control peasant, then they will attack the peasant on the road, their victory pushes them off the road. whats that, no movement left? Siege!
A bit down and dirty, but it worked for me
Re: Blitz All Challenge
Understood. I had a general idea as to what was required, no pun intended.
Your method is useful and relevant. It has been added to our own.
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Re: Blitz All Challenge
Heres a few of my better battles, in chronological order.
Throughout these battles please note the 'quality' of my armies, and with this in mind I had to develop some fairly unconventional tactics, although heavy use of general/mailed knights is prevalent.
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
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I autoresolved about 40%-50% of battles in all, usually if 2:1 or better in my favour (I frontload stacks spears, bows then cav). These are a selection of some of the tighter critical battles I had to fight. I'm still amazed by what can be achieved with relatively rubbish troops
Re: Blitz All Challenge
Its not the shoes, man. The most well armoured troop in the world with the best training and the slickest uniform and Nike shoes can't cut it in this game when fighting a band of peasants and archers led by a decent general.I'm still amazed by what can be achieved with relatively rubbish troops
In Rome, I used to just use bands of peasants and equites and a general and lay waste to everything. In this game peasants are nearly worthless, but militia fills in the gap.
By the time anyone gets fully plated, advanced troops, the rest of the world has decent troops as well. it's a catch 22.
Last edited by Askthepizzaguy; 01-24-2008 at 02:19.
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Re: Blitz All Challenge
Hey Grog...
I just realized my personal record of 50 provinces taken by turn 16 puts me as a serious contender to your 106 provinces/43 turn record, as by turn 20 you had 30 provinces.
Interesting!
I think I will actually attempt to smash your record, Grog. Wish me luck!
Proof that 50 can be taken by turn 16-
Spoiler Alert, click show to read:
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Re: Blitz All Challenge
I used to do alot of blitzing myself, and might be tempted to join you guys if it werent for the fact that I dont have M2TW installed anymore.
I think HRE is probably the best starting faction, but Milan may be a close second due to its proximity to Rome, you can get a very early crusade and the initial northern Italian cities might give you enough momentum to counter the fact that you start off with less provinces.
Also, the fact that Italian spear militias simply rule help alot too since you can probably get through fights with alot lower odds than if you standard HRE haggard crusade stacks
"I do not know what I may appear to the world; but to myself I seem to have been only like a boy playing on the seashore, and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or a prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me." - Issac Newton
Re: Blitz All Challenge
If one is to use a faction like Milan to blitz, it only makes perfect sense to do what I did in my Danish campaign and barter the mindless AI into giving up the 3 central HRE provinces, or perhaps all 4 if you can do it.
You can use diplomacy to make up for the cash drop for the next 4 turns.
This way, you have a massive starting position comparable to the HRE, and the superior militia troops of Northern Italy. However, that's taking a gamble. You might need that money for troops.
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Re: Blitz All Challenge
Ah, the joys of an afternoon off work !
Anyway back to Blitzkrieg theorum. I could see you beating my record tbh. I'm fairly sure I could beat it myself. As said above, I did tiptoe around the catholics too much early on, which cost me logistical time/effort. In retrospect I would bribe the pope much harder with more diplomats and completely override excom threats from the off.
One aspect of fast blitzing your fellow catholics is to be on perfect popeometer when you attack, on on perfect after you attack, the same turn. Hence multiple diplomats on rome. With this technique I must have failed 30+ 'do not attack this faction' pope missions and never came near to excom. I found the cheapest bribe is tribute, increased incrementally as a gift the same turn. Also, make sure you get popemeter perfect+allaince and first crusade called before going to war with catholic neighbours..
As for other diplomacy, aside from an early marriage alliance with the danes for a northern trade partner I simply didnt bother. All territory I gained was with battle, and I didnt make a florin from selling anything to the ai.
All battles were sack/ransom. I had a few riots here and there at times, but no rebellions.
HRE vs Milan as a faction: I'd still pick HRE. I found the key to getting fast control in outlying places is to make them castles (religious conversion too slow). I had 40+ castles at the end to my blitz, mainly for cheap control (motte/bailey+1 peasant). Also HRE can blitz rebels harder at the start, Milan has to do away with toughish AI HRE at the start to gain heartland europe fast.
On the general overview, I still think the priority for first crusade is antioch, whilst using crusade speed to hit the 4 outlying corners of the old world, whilst simultaneously carving out an economic heartland with non crusade armies.. You also want to draw your armies in a broad arc across the world. I would dedicate some all horse crusade stacks early(200 ships when needed) on to fly to the outward points of the world, rent a gang of thugs and make a castle. I'd also dedicate 2 stacks to sweep up through russia, my single stack ran out of gas at moscow last attempt.
On a seperate note, I'm thinking of trying Turkey VH/VH with Initial aim of capture all initial catholic/orthodox major castles with first Jihad drop-off, then play a global skirmish/raid game on the cities using HA/cav until Jihad 2..
Re: Blitz All Challenge
Yeah I dont actually recommend Milan for a blitz speed record campaign. The HRE is the only faction capable of total domination of the map in record time.
Milan is a purely "for fun" faction.
So far I have some 23 provinces by turn 8. I intend to double that to 50 by turn 16 or less, and double that to 100 by turn 40 or less, and finish off anything that remains in the final turns. I suspect I am now a true contender for the crown again.
Not only do I have 23 provinces, but I have massive amounts of troops (some 3 stacks ready to completely annihilate the British Isles, non crusading)
I also already have a general ready to take off for Arguin from Marrakesh, and my King is assaulting Spain with crusaders. Russia is about to fall completely, as their armies are no match for my two crusader stacks, one of which has devastated all but a few troops in Norvgorod. I have troops moving into position to take Poland, and a crusader stack heading towards the target, Antioch, which is currently in Vienna, and has just split in two, allowing a Byzantine campaign. I am redoubling my forces with additional knights, militiamen, mounted seargents, and I have built ballista to assist with my Italian campaign in progress, under the command of captains atm.
With 3 corners of the map already under my control at turn 8, all that remains is a push towards the crusade target, with 6 turns remaining of absolutely free movement and joining the crusade. I intend to keep my crusade alive until it becomes a severe burden, and then I intend to backstab as many of my allies as possible.
I've also accomplished a daring feat: I've nabbed about 7 allies and sold them a bill of goods I will never deliver. Mostly maps and offers to assault, plus an inordinate amount of military accesses (on their part and mine). This eliminates Zone of Control difficulties for my neighboring nations, allowing me to push through them quicker.
When my massive backstab begins, all alliances will end and the pope will be fuming. However, I intend to bribe him to sleep as blitz theory demands.
My only qualms about this plan are that I have invested in fairly top-heavy strategy... I intend to take the northwest and northeast parts of the map easily, as well as the west, followed by Spain if possible, all during the post-crusade lull... however, I have few troops on the Middle Eastern front thus far. Hopefully my Russian troops, Italian troops, and Polish/Byzantine troops will meet up at Antioch or at least head in that direction in the next 6 turns, or time will be lost forever.
I will take my crown back with this campaign...
PS- I have a very difficult battle versus El Cid the Chivalrous with an undermanned and underpowered half-stack of garbage troops and a weak general. This will be a close victory, if it is to be a victory at all... this battle will nab me my 24th province by turn 8.
Last edited by Askthepizzaguy; 01-31-2008 at 17:06.
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Re: Blitz All Challenge
I eagerly anticipate the battle/empire reports
Seriously, with diplomatic wrangling + heavy alliance trade partners you should outburn my economy. My betting on what you have acheived so far, if you manage to placate the pope whilst backsatbbing all europe, high 30's win is on the cards
Re: Blitz All Challenge
Turn 12- 32 provinces taken.
The war against the Byzantines has begun, with the loss of their great King and soon a castle in Asia Minor will fall. They have approx. 3 stacks of good troops in Constantinople region, so I cannot do a direct assault with my lead stack. More stacks to follow.
The Moors are gone, and Timbuktu has been taken with a crusading army. Iberia is beginning to fall, as I decided not to assault El Cid and focused on destroying the Moors... now I am back to finish off El Cid. Spain and Portugal will fall, but I can take my time, as I have generals in the region that are not on crusade, as well as castles.
Nottigham is the sole British Isles province remaining, with a full stack of garbage troops. I have 3 stacks in the region already, all on crusade. I intend to end my crusade by taking Rennes and Bruges with 2 stacks, proceding south with my third stack.
I have a general in Scotland on crusade which is recruiting troops to wipe out any remaining resistance should I fail in my assault against England.
I have two diplomats at the Pope, but I havent been able to open negotiations yet, and my rep is at abysmal. I hope he does not threaten excommunication, however at this point it doesnt matter. England and Byzantium are my only at war factions, and I can take England in 7 turns with one stack if need be. No worries there.
I have a crusading general in Bolga-Vulgar region all by himself, ready to recruit mercs once the crusade ends. I also have 3 crusading generals in the greater Russian region, one set to retake Norvgorod en route (it rebelled. I don't care. I lose no time retaking it as I have a general en route) and another is wiping up the middle of Russia.
I am massing forces in the middle of the HRE to take nothern italy and poland. I have many knights already assembled, I need to promote a captain which I should do next turn.
I have assaulted Milan and I have troops blocking the bridge. Genoa is the sole Milanese province remaining. Venice hasnt backstabbed me yet. Their loss...
I intend to take Sicily with a crusading stack en route to the Holy land, when the crusade ends. My lead stack will control the end of the first crusade. I still have 2 turns remaining of free movement and joining. I expect severe economic difficulties when the crusade ends.
Last edited by Askthepizzaguy; 01-31-2008 at 19:49.
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