I had rather easy time smacking Byzantines around... not so... with their griggin navy... I upgraded the shipyeard, so I am producing boats with 2 speed and 2 attack and defense, which is completely outclassed by the Byzantines. Any hints??? In smacking their navy? I've ejected them from the Asia minor, and they are stuck in Cyprus, I think.
in history, the Byzantines always did have a better navy then the turks.
------------------
"Onward Chrisitan soldiers, marching as to war,
With the Cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ the royal Master leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see his banners go!"
S. Baring-Goul
"Onward Chrisitan soldiers, marching as to war,
With the Cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ the royal Master leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see his banners go!"
S. Baring-Goul
Byzants get fire galleys - which I don't think anyone else gets due to their monopoly with Greek fire, sort of a primitive napalm/flamethrower.
Grifman
Italians have fire galley but they don't seem to get any deep water ship.
And to Annapolis: Where was the byzantine fleet when the turks conquered Constantinopol? It is said that the turks managed to cary their ships on land because the water was blocked by chain so the turks got ships. I wander were was the greek fleet maybe they were on business.
In the seige of Constantinople the Turkish navy was constantly outclassed and embarrasses by the Byzantine navy. The ships being moved over land was a suprise move, but in the end it didnt have any real effect on the battle.
"Don't believe everything you read online."
-Abraham Lincoln
Xia is right...the Byzantine navy whoopd the turks in several engagments at the Siege of Constantinople.
One reason was that unlike the other navies of the time , the bulk of the Byzantine War fleet where sail powerd and stood much higher then Turkish ships...which gave them a real advantage when boarding the enemy.
The firegalleys were also oar powered. This gave them speed even without wind and allowed them to also travel upwind.
Lets also keep in mind that until effecient steam engines were around the fastest speed in ships was attained through oars.
I still don't understand why the Italians and Sicilians get fireships. The Egyptians used greek fire but not on ships but the italians never ever had access to greek fire. Oh well easy enough to change that.
"Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
-Abraham Lincoln
Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.
Theinteresting thing about the siege was that if Constantinople had a few more men, the Turks may have failed at their assault because the Turks were only able to get into the city by climbing through an undefended area.
Also, please explain how you eliminate the ability of the Italians to get fireships?
Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first woman she meets and then teams up with three complete strangers to kill again. - Marin County newspaper's TV listing for The Wizard of Oz
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Academy/5990/byzantine/
This was posted a while back- its a real good read about the fall of Constantinople for those interested.
"Don't believe everything you read online."
-Abraham Lincoln
Thanks for that link. Tears just about came to my eyes considering what happened to those people. What a sad end to a great nation that protected Europe from barbaric invasions for centuries.
Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first woman she meets and then teams up with three complete strangers to kill again. - Marin County newspaper's TV listing for The Wizard of Oz
and how ironic that the two City states that have been trying to destroy the empire for centuries where the only western europeans who fought with thme till the end.
Yes the turks had nearly lost all hope.
I've also been fascinated by the sieges. It was always in constant evolution. Turns out Italians were premier experts in both construction of the fortification as well as Siege warfare! Did you know, Leonardo Da Vinci was quite a fortification engineer?
Absolutely fascinating. Anyways, it is no surprise that Italians played significant role in both Byzantine side and Ottoman side. Ottomans made use of many European experts, such as Bulgarian Artilery experts, and Italian Siege Experts.
In 1922, the Greeks nearly re-established the empire and if not once again for the treachery of the West, they would have captured land all the way to Ankara.
I've lived to see the day that communism collapsed in Russia, now I only want to see one more thing...
Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first woman she meets and then teams up with three complete strangers to kill again. - Marin County newspaper's TV listing for The Wizard of Oz
"What a sad end to a great nation that protected Europe from barbaric invasions for centuries."
It wasn't like they were "protecting" Europe out of the goodness of their hearts or anything.
And barbaric? YOu do realize that for all of the Middle Ages, the Islamic world was far more civilized in pretty much every way you can think of than Europe?
Just an old-fashioned cowboy.
UHm Islamic Civ yes...meaning Arabs....but Seljuk and Ottoman turks...eh i donmt think so.
ANd to refresh your memory , the Arabs got all their knowlege from the Byzantines (and china)who preserved greek and roman writing in their grand libaries.
And then it Went from Arabs to the Western Europeans.
Byzantium preserved Civ
I respect the Islamic empire of old...but the Turks...
Man a lot of greek suporters here.
They should know that they losed Constantinopol by their own fault. when they will accept this? for centuries greeks defended the city whith money but when they run out of it they faced the fact that did not know how to fight and greeks were destroyed by their own former mercenaries.
But it's not entirely their fault few european nations in that time could resist such a ferocios army.
You greeks must accept that Constantinopol is lost forever you are now a small nation and pray that you don't angry the turks because you could lose as little as you have.
Quote Originally posted by Paladin:
In 1922, the Greeks nearly re-established the empire and if not once again for the treachery of the West, they would have captured land all the way to Ankara.
I've lived to see the day that communism collapsed in Russia, now I only want to see one more thing...[/QUOTE]
And what would have happened to the millions of Turks living in Asia Minor? Outnumbering the Greeks, would the Greeks have made them citizens and given the right to vote? Or would they have expelled them - as was done by both sides in the war. Both sides expelled the other side - over a million Greeks had to leave Turkey and over 400,000 Turks had to leave Greece. Given that a continuing Greek population in Asia Minor only continued to provide an excuse for Greek claims to parts of the area, can't really blame the Turks for wanting them out.
Greeks seems to think Turks were the only ones committing atrocities, but both sides were guilty of attacking and murdering civilians. Both have been slaughtering each other for centuries. It's time to give it up and deal with each other like civilized nations. The past is done.
Grifman
Grifman, absolutely true.
The Arabs got all their knowledge from the Byzantines? I have got to disagree with this. The history of the Arabs, despite what certain scholars will tell you, actually consisted of more than transmitting classical knowledge to Western Europeans.
The Ottoman Empire was an empire like any other at the time: brutal, corrupt, autocratic, oppressive. But it was also more tolerant than many others, including the Byzantine Empire which came before it.
As for Byzantium saving civilization, let's just say that statement presumes that Byzantine and European civilization is the only civilization out there. Frankly, that's just a BIT presumptuous.
Just an old-fashioned cowboy.
Yummy, nationalistic fueled posts, arguing about the superority of two "once great but now small and harmless" countries.
*gets popcorn*
Remember 11th september, 1973!!
Quote Originally posted by Ckrisz:
Grifman, absolutely true.
As for Byzantium saving civilization, let's just say that statement presumes that Byzantine and European civilization is the only civilization out there. Frankly, that's just a BIT presumptuous.[/QUOTE]
Well, I would disagree with you there. Byzantium did serve to protect the West from Islamic invasion from at least one direction (and the Franks protected the West from the other direction). And unless you think all civilizations are equal - and I don't - I am glad I grew up in the one I did (Western) and not another one. See Hanson's latest book "Carnage and Culture" for the differences between Western and other civilizations (including Islamic) - then see if you think all cultures are equal.
Grifman
Quote I've lived to see the day that communism collapsed in Russia, now I only want to see one more thing...
[/QUOTE]
I too want the Greeks to have Constantiople back. The balkans and asia minor though are too culturally changed to allow the greeks to control them.
And anyhow I think the west learned that they should have supported Byzantium when Budapest fell and the Turks were knocking on the doors of Vienna.
------------------
If the world were a cake I would have ruined my appetite eating it
Luftwaffle@mad.scientist.com
"Am I not destroying my enemies when I make friends of them?"
-Abraham Lincoln
Four stage strategy from Yes, Minister:
Stage one we say nothing is going to happen.
Stage two, we say something may be about to happen, but we should do nothing about it.
Stage three, we say that maybe we should do something about it, but there's nothing we can do.
Stage four, we say maybe there was something we could have done, but it's too late now.
Ckrisz:
Quote It wasn't like they were "protecting" Europe out of the goodness of their hearts or anything.[/QUOTE]
So what? The point, which is clearly lost on you, is that they were protecting Europe. And to say that no one in the Empire was doing it for spiritual reasons is tragic on your part.
Quote And barbaric? YOu do realize that for all of the Middle Ages, the Islamic world was far more civilized in pretty much every way you can think of than Europe?[/QUOTE]
Dream on, Islam-boy. Islam was the first religion which was established by conquering people of different faiths. The Europeans learned that crap from them. How's that for "civilized"?
takkran:
Quote Man a lot of greek suporters here.
They should know that they losed Constantinopol by their own fault. when they will accept this? for centuries greeks defended the city whith money but when they run out of it they faced the fact that did not know how to fight and greeks were destroyed by their own former mercenaries.
But it's not entirely their fault few european nations in that time could resist such a ferocios army.[/QUOTE]
How was it their own fault? They had been under constant seige for centuries. No Empire can survive constant warfare. The proof is in MTW. How well do you prosper when you are constantly at war?
Quote You greeks must accept that Constantinopol is lost forever you are now a small nation and pray that you don't angry the turks because you could lose as little as you have.[/QUOTE]
They once said that the communism was an unstoppable force and that in time, all nations would fall to it. How wrong they were. Get a life, Turkey-boy.
Grifman:
Quote And what would have happened to the millions of Turks living in Asia Minor? Outnumbering the Greeks, would the Greeks have made them citizens and given the right to vote? Or would they have expelled them - as was done by both sides in the war. Both sides expelled the other side - over a million Greeks had to leave Turkey and over 400,000 Turks had to leave Greece. Given that a continuing Greek population in Asia Minor only continued to provide an excuse for Greek claims to parts of the area, can't really blame the Turks for wanting them out.[/QUOTE]
That was the end result of WWI. The Ottomans were defeated and the treaty that was signed was that Greece would get the areas in question.
The explusions were not part of the deal and only occurred because of the Turks breaking the treaty and to avoid additional bloodshed.
Quote Greeks seems to think Turks were the only ones committing atrocities, but both sides were guilty of attacking and murdering civilians.[/QUOTE]
Who told you this nonsense? Of course both sides were guilty. Do your homework before you pass judgment on people.
Quote Both have been slaughtering each other for centuries. It's time to give it up and deal with each other like civilized nations. The past is done.[/QUOTE]
Again, you don't know what you're talking about. The only atrocities against Turks occurred in the 1920's war. Yes, that was bad but nothing compared to what Turks did to people in their way for hundreds of years.
Transported to a surreal landscape, a young girl kills the first woman she meets and then teams up with three complete strangers to kill again. - Marin County newspaper's TV listing for The Wizard of Oz
I hear you brother Paladin!!!!
Even today the Turks keep commiting crimes in their war against the Kurds...using western armor no less.
And their trying so bad to get into the EU that they are trying to make Turky look less Islamic.
"And unless you think all civilizations are equal - and I don't - I am glad I grew up in the one I did (Western) and not another one. See Hanson's latest book "Carnage and Culture" for the differences between Western and other civilizations (including Islamic) - then see if you think all cultures are equal."
First off, when did I say that all civilizations were "equal?" Please feel free to quote me.
Also, I have read Hanson. He is a very good and innovative scholar, especially with his research on Greek phalanx warfare, but he also has a political axe to grind. That's fine and all, but CARNAGE AND CULTURE is largely an opinion piece, not a scholarly work. Hanson takes some battles and draws his conclusions from it, which is nice, but anyone else could take several other battles and draw totally different ones.
"And to say that no one in the Empire was doing it for spiritual reasons is tragic on your part."
So the Byzantine Emperors were protecting Western Europe for spiritual reasons? Not realizing this is tragic? Sorry, but that's both historically inaccurate and just plain funny.
"Dream on, Islam-boy. Islam was the first religion which was established by conquering people of different faiths. The Europeans learned that crap from them. How's that for 'civilized'?"
Sorry, but I'm not in the second grade. I'm not going to respond to name-calling.
As for Islam being the first religion to conquer other peoples, or gain power by conquering peoples --- perhaps you should read the Old Testament. You can then contrast Moses' treatment of the Canaanites with Umar's treatment of the Coptic Christians.
As for the whole Greek/Turkish thing --- I'm not even going to touch that. Suffice it to say that there was more than enough atrocities on all sides and that there's a lot more to be gained from cooperation rather than conflict.
Just an old-fashioned cowboy.
Paladin i am no turkish boy. I live in a contry that suffered a lot in the past because of the turks but you should know that many greeks served turks very well and together they oppressed the other people in the balkans. And turks learned a lot of the stuff that made byzantines famos like corruption and all that. Turks may have a lot of defects but at least they are a lot more onest then greeks and they builded their empire by themselves not stealing like the greeks what roman legions conquered in the past. Enough about greeks look how they treat national minorities it makes me sick.
They are the real barbarians.
I will choose the winner (Greece vs. Turkey):
I know there are some pretty hot Turkish women so right now I'm leaning towards Turkey. Post pictures of Greek babes and then I can tell you if Greece or Turkey wins.
Man, what a rat hole. How does any of the above senseless bickering answer the mans question about the GAME? Umm... lets see... it doesnt.
[This message has been edited by moldndecay (edited 09-16-2002).]
moldanddecay
did i ask you something?
mind your own business.
Quote Originally posted by takkran:
moldanddecay
did i ask you something?
mind your own business.[/QUOTE]
takkran, I didnt remove your quote before I hit the submit, my bad. Wasnt directed at you specifically. Ive edited your quote out. Still, the question remains, how to defeat the Byz navy.
I play whith italians and i have the same problem whith the byzantine fleet. I mean that in every sea they have 6 to 8 fleets so all i can do is to attack them on land but i prefer peace for now.
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