Quote Originally Posted by salemty
I have a question, people seem to really like the pre marius 3 line formation with hastati first line principes second and triarii third. i dont understand were u would use this formation though. for example the enemy has more troops than you u cant use this formation becuase your units will be flanked. if he has less why not just surround him with your troops. Can someone plz tell me in what situation you would use the 3 line formation in!
The key is a mobile and flexible response. I've tried to learn, decisive battles attempting to set up conditions on strategic map, for a battle of annihilation, against AI which isn't planning on "running" as it's not against superior forces.

For Maneuver, you need space, and that means "air" not an unbroken phalanx style line. That lets you get your spearmen to counter attack or intercept cavalry, get the missiles into a concentrated effective fire, and have the potential of maneuver, or reinforcing spots, or even charging with the general into a flank of a "wrapping around" unit.

In ancient battles, a phalanx couldn't maneuver much once formed up, it took a long time (hence skirmishers duelling for hours whilst the Hoplites put on their armour and shields). In one battle 2 Spartan leaders refused to move when ordered by general to move from right to left flank, as they feared the disorganisation of the maneuver. Battle lost as they were hitting air, and the left flank got turned (as tended to happen) in Phalanx v Phalanx conflicts.

Except in Prologue (where they give you a balanced army to start with), I rarely am able to field an actual Velites, Hastati, Principes, Triarii formation. But I have found, my preferred deployment against the foes such maniples would face, spear warbands, samnites, light barb cavalry and some heavy noble cavalry is historically based.

On some occasions, I've repeated a battle where a shallower formation has got into difficulties, against Cavalry or Chariots and discovered that the dense-mass is more resilient. It slows and stops holding opponents forces, giving time for the pila storm to have more effect. The Roman troops are trained to turn to side on flanks so getting flanked is not fatal (so long as you can counter cavalry with spearmen) and the next line, can counter-attack the exposed flank of the less disciplined opponents, who WILL be severely disadvantaged.

Velites out in front take some FLAK in many posts, but I noticed a Gaulish army with 5 skirmisher war bands, and 5 spear warbands plus general cav, is a far tougher opponent, than the AI's double line of 5 x 2 Spear warbands plus Cav (best if you can get at the skirmishers with superior cavlary, or get them to waste their ammo). So I persevered and I try and put them, out in front, where they can dodge thrown javelins which wastes oppositions ammunition, and also signals right moment to counter-charge with the Hastati. To avoid crowding problems it's vital not to form an unbroken line, but use the chequer board and frequently squarer formations than the default layout.

Then because you can't afford to "waste" triarii, Town Watch (or other cheap light spearmen) can buffer the Heavy Cavalry charges, allowing any Trarii, or Barb mercenaries and 2nd Line Hastati (ought to be Principes) to counter-attack effectively with a charge advantage.

In some battles, I replayed experimenting with deeper deployment (opponents with lots of cavalry plus chariots who chew up a shallow wing). Not nice, but frankly Town Watch and Velites are more "expendable" than Hastati; if they get caught and take a mauling it's cheap to replace, but they stop the momentum of the opponents, and allow most of the army to unleash an overwhelming counter attack.

Other times, it's all light fire and maneuver tactics, to chew up phalanx based armies, like German Spear Warband, who'd be rather formidable against Heavy Infrantry, but are too slow without decent cavalry cover to not be crushed by the apparently frail Light Infantry plus Cavalry combo.


Not read whole thread, but you might like to experiment with a hidden "refused " flank formation, which is good to hide scarily strong forces. Buys time to absolutely annihilate a barbarian force, and bag the all important general. If you just line up, they make you attack and are likely to be able to withdraw in better order from battle field (especially if there's woods to make pursuit harder).

Semi-Hidden Refused right-flank

H
H H V__
W A tH tH V
C G T I IW

H - Hastati, V_ default spread out Velites, V block Velites, W - warband, A - Archers. t - Town Watch

C - Light Cavalry (Equties or Barb Merc), G - General HC, T - Triarii. I - Illyrian Javellin skirmishers.

The idea of this, is to screen off much of forces, and allow the Velites channels to retreat. The right flank refuses contact against the line, which allows the semi-concealed power of the Warband to sneak behind a light cavalry screen, to flank. Depending on composition of forces the strong side may be columns, rather than extra lines.

The apparent retreat, sucks in opposition frontline, who think they're winning, but then face an extremely heavy storm of pila and javelins. The Archers also get to fire obliquely into unshielded right flank of charging opponents.

Note how the Triarii in such a formation (and the General) are actually near to every point of the real line, so you have "interior lines" of communication, with the fast light warband + cavalry able to flank. Much of the Hastati pila fire is more effective than usual to, because it's thrown from a flanking oposition.

That means you can concentrate intense missile attack, a counter-charge, plus a line of fresh reserve forces to exploit the shaken barbarian opponents.

In some battles, it's quite amusing when a flanking attack by a feeble weak unit like town watch, or simply the unexpected warcry of the 3rd line of a warband hidden behind the 2nd line, that triggers the rout, when acting at the decisive moment.


Experiment with some plans, drawing impetuous light cavalry onto a screened 3rd line of spearmen for instance, by feigned retreat.

I suspect that an army like the Gauls in RTW, expects to rush and charge, and doesn't have the stamina to fight for long. Therefore, with a deeper formation, there's more time for missile fire to inflict casualties; and the troops fatigue, even if they're not directly in combat.

So long as there's Cavalry, one routing unit on the main line signals a mass panic as, every unit knows what the result will be if they dally on the battlefield.

The game behaviour is not unreasonable, the barbs are often somewhat tired to start with after a long charge, and know if they can't sweep away the opposition in a rush, that they're likely to be on wrong end of a massacre.