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Thread: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

  1. #1

    Default Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Well, I started a campaign in the middle of the map (as Hojo, I believe) because , foolishly, I was fascinated by a clan that had peasants as its bonus troops... it didn t take very long for my "kingdom" to be carved up like a birthday cake.

    So Im playing as Shimazu now.

    One difference from MTW-the bridge battles. On defence the AI (the Mori clan) tends to stand its troops a little back from the bridge, unlike in MTW where it does everything except stand on the bridge itself.

    The only counter I ve found is to use my general with his cav to charge across the bridge , deflect left and break up the army defending while my men (inf) rush across. This distracting tactic can result in my Gen routing (shame!) So far its not had an effect on my advancing men (I m playing on Normal difficulty) who let their leader shoulder his way through them across the bridge and over the hills and far away....
    A single leaf falls,
    then suddenly another,
    stolen by the breeze


    RANSETSU (1654-1707)

  2. #2
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Furze
    Well, I started a campaign in the middle of the map (as Hojo, I believe) because , foolishly, I was fascinated by a clan that had peasants as its bonus troops... it didn t take very long for my "kingdom" to be carved up like a birthday cake.
    That'd be the Oda clan. The Hojo are the ones in between the Takeda & Uesugi clans (towards the eastern end of the map), and they can build cheap castles.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Furze
    One difference from MTW-the bridge battles. On defence the AI (the Mori clan) tends to stand its troops a little back from the bridge, unlike in MTW where it does everything except stand on the bridge itself.

    The only counter I ve found is to use my general with his cav to charge across the bridge , deflect left and break up the army defending while my men (inf) rush across. This distracting tactic can result in my Gen routing (shame!) So far its not had an effect on my advancing men (I m playing on Normal difficulty) who let their leader shoulder his way through them across the bridge and over the hills and far away....
    When assaulting bridges, I generally deploy a company of light horse (usually Cavalry Archers, although YC works okay too) to lure the enemy out of formation and chase be back across the bridge -- and into the arms of my waiting YA/YS.

    If the AI sees through the ruse and refuses to take the bait, however, then I'll make pincushions out of them with my Samurai Archers. Eventually the enemy weakens enough that I can generally then force an old-fashioned frontal assault. Bloody, but it usually works.
    "MTW is not a game, it's a way of life." -- drone

  3. #3

    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    "That'd be the Oda clan."

    Thanks Martok-as you can see Im pretty new. Originally I was daunted by the exotic strangeness of Shogun after the relative familiarity of MTW VI. Now Im fascinated.

    I treat it as a whole new game if not experience-inspite of apparent similarities:

    the same "Hoy!" when you move any stacks

    the stack idea itself

    the Risk like campaign map

    etc etc

    The fact is, in many wys, I like it alot-it has atmosphere, simplicity and charm.

    I ve just managed to get a useful Japan map for the game to help me out and Im combing places to find useful stuff. Theres still quite a bit to discover...

    Thanks again.
    A single leaf falls,
    then suddenly another,
    stolen by the breeze


    RANSETSU (1654-1707)

  4. #4
    Clan Takiyama Senior Member R'as al Ghul's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Furze
    I ve just managed to get a useful Japan map for the game to help me out and Im combing places to find useful stuff. Theres still quite a bit to discover...

    Thanks again.
    Hey Toni,

    have you seen this: http://www.totalwar.org/hosted/TotalwarShogun/ ?
    There's a Japan map with resources and you can find strategy tips there.


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  5. #5
    Sage Member Wasp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Enjoy the game, Tony! Many of us keep going back every once in a while to play this gem.

    And if you have questions, don't be afraid to ask
    The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish, and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten. The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits. When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten. The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Rás al Ghul : that s the very map I m using. The whole site is very tastefully made.

    Wasp:Thanks very much.

    My Shimazu look like theyre about to overwhelm the map soon. The Dutch have arrived with gunpowder and shot. And i have a Geisha terrorising the Daimyos and their sons.
    A single leaf falls,
    then suddenly another,
    stolen by the breeze


    RANSETSU (1654-1707)

  7. #7

    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Welcome to the club, I've never had much luck playing a "middle" faction. There is a delicate balance between turtling and attacking that I can't figure out. I usually lose fairly quickly.

    Winter is here, about time for another campaign.

    Love the game. glad this forum is still here to help out on occaison.

    Matt

  8. #8

    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    This part of the Forum is like coming to one of those fresh mountain top retreats
    where the air is clear and clouds can be seen below drifting past...

    The game is very impressive-excellent-with so many subtleties at both campaign and battle levels. I ve won twice-Oda on Easy which I played all battles on autocalc just to get used to the Shogun engine.

    Then I was Shimazu on Normal, and I played out the battles till it was quite obvious victory was mine. I have never come across such real heroism you can generate in your units! You feel really proud of them after!

    So now its onto Hard...
    A single leaf falls,
    then suddenly another,
    stolen by the breeze


    RANSETSU (1654-1707)

  9. #9
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Awesome, Tony. (I confess I'm a little envious that you're getting to enjoy Shogun this way -- there's nothing like your first time!) Have you decided as to which clan you're going to play as in your next campaign?
    "MTW is not a game, it's a way of life." -- drone

  10. #10

    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Thanks Martok. Its really a thrill to play this game... I m glad I went back to it.

    I ve started a Hard Campaign as Uesugi. I ve already been attacked several times by various neighbours. Again I m amazed at the heroism that is more apparent than in MTW-something to do with the combination of fewer, more specialized units, the weather and the landscape.

    It really gives it an epic feel.
    A single leaf falls,
    then suddenly another,
    stolen by the breeze


    RANSETSU (1654-1707)

  11. #11
    Camel Lord Senior Member Capture The Flag Champion Martok's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Furze
    I ve started a Hard Campaign as Uesugi. I ve already been attacked several times by various neighbours.
    Yeah, that'll happen -- especially when you've got Shinano. Thank goodness the province has defensible terrain, otherwise it would be impossible to hold onto! (As it is, I've still lost it from time to time, as I can't always beat the back the constant attacks. )

    Quote Originally Posted by Tony Furze
    Again I m amazed at the heroism that is more apparent than in MTW-something to do with the combination of fewer, more specialized units, the weather and the landscape.

    It really gives it an epic feel.
    Indeed it does. Shogun's always felt a little more "personal" to me as well, like I'm really there with my men and slogging it out against the enemy.

    In addition to the superb landscape and weather affects -- which in my experience, have yet to be surpassed by any other game I've ever played -- I absolutely love the music, both in combat and on the campaign map. STW's soundtrack remains superior to any other title I have, especially in terms of instilling atmosphere.
    "MTW is not a game, it's a way of life." -- drone

  12. #12
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Ah, Tony and Martok. It makes me smile to read you're thinking the same way of this game. I actually took took the cd's to uni now! Will be the first time in a loooong time playing Shogun again. I have Rome here too, but gah.. it's just too simple and boring :S

    Btw, good to hear you're making good progress. Keep asking specific questions on campaigns and battles!

    About the rivers.. well, I usually did the same, taking 1 cavalry unit to cross the bridge and have a part of their army leave the defence to chase it, so the rest could cross more safely. Another tactic was to use my daimyo or a naginata unit or so to cross the bridge, and then just wait. the AI always sends non-ranged units to charge when you get something across the bridge. then I would retreat quickly, and shoot up the charging enemies with loads of archers from my side of the river. the get shot down real quick, because they group together at the bridge and they always wander around for a bit before returning to the rest of their army. of course, this works better vs. ashigaru's, no-dachi's, or warrior monk's, because they have few armour.

    It works loads better when the army has no(/few) archers, then your 'bait' won't get hurt and you can kills hundreds losing none..

    have fun!
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  13. #13

    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Drisos
    I have Rome here too, but gah.. it's just too simple and boring :S
    I'm stuck with RTW for now, because my graphics card/motherboard won't run MTW/STW due to the infinite loop bug. I must say though that I'm slowly getting into the campaign map game and can now see some of it's potential, but it's shortcomings where battles are concerned are often extremely annoying.

    To a certain extent I can deal with the battles being too easy as a result of the stupidity of the AI (e.g. no attempt to flank, chariots and cavalry (including the general) charging a phalanx head on etc) but the numerous glitches are what annoy me the most, such as units stuck inside siege towers and extremely poor pathfinding, positioning and manoeuvering inside the city walls. Though I suppose STW/MTW admittedly didn't have real sieges anyway.

    This is pretty much why I won't buy M2TW - at least not until I can legally purchase it for next to nothing. Many people swallowed the hype about that being so good and being the 3rd generation of TW but in the end it turned out that Empire is more likely to be the 3G and that M2TW was just a heavily modded RTW with many of the same flaws and some new ones added.

  14. #14
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Quote Originally Posted by caravel
    I'm To a certain extent I can deal with the battles being too easy as a result of the stupidity of the AI (e.g. no attempt to flank, chariots and cavalry (including the general) charging a phalanx head on etc) but the numerous glitches are what annoy me the most, such as units stuck inside siege towers and extremely poor pathfinding, positioning and manoeuvering inside the city walls. Though I suppose STW/MTW admittedly didn't have real sieges anyway.
    Ah yes... glitches indeed. I hated defending a city because I couldn't normally use my army/units.. But most annoying I found that I won any battle within second killing 95% of the enemies, using an all-cav army. (I played BI as the saxons, first campaign was my last right away) Sometimes heavy spearmen stood and fought for a seconds but then of course I flanked them and they routed and died as well.. it was just too simple. With just one army I could wipe out dozens of others.. I must admit, I liked the campaign map and new possibilities in the campaigns.

    This is pretty much why I won't buy M2TW - at least not until I can legally purchase it for next to nothing.
    Hehe, me too. I waited very long with RTW, and I'm going to wait very long with MTW2 as well.
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  15. #15

    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Another few "bugs" I forgot to mention: Firstly the phalanx bug. This is probably one of the worst in fact. It is where the AI phalanxes appear to be unsure as to whether they should be in phalanx formation or not and keep switching in an out of it. As a result their formation get's twisted up into a mess and they are easy pickings... but then when you charge your cavalry at them they miraculously all try to go back into phalanx mode but totally out of formation and facing in several different directions. Despite this mess they actually seem to be partially effective and suffer no real penalties for this disorder. The second bug, is the "skirmisher still skirmishing while out of ammo" bug. I remember chasing some eastern general heavy cavalry all over the map for about 20 minutes once because of this. It was obvious that the AI was still under the impression it was throwing missiles. Eventually I had to carefully surround the unit, pincer it and rout it off the field. More like "Sheepdog Trials: Total War".

    It's a pity CA don't wake up and bring back the old battles of STW/MTW. If the battles were improved for a possible "S2TW" I could live with the campaign map.
    Last edited by caravel; 01-28-2008 at 14:52.

  16. #16
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Quote Originally Posted by caravel
    The second bug, is the "skirmisher still skirmishing while out of ammo" bug. I remember chasing some eastern general heavy cavalry all over the map for about 20 minutes once because of this. It was obvious that the AI was still under the impression it was throwing missiles. Eventually I had to carefully surround the unit, pincer it and rout it off the field. More like "Sheepdog Trials: Total War".
    hehehe

    I never liked skirmishing enemies in any of the series :P But that's ok, it would be strange if you liked the way your enemy is acting as a general. In STW I often got in trouble because of time limits and skirmishing enemies. (especially mongol light cavalry!) Then I discover the most simple way around though.. Just don't chase them, let them fire, while you block off any possible escape route.. then engage and kill all. ;)

    In Rome I just sent some light cav after skirmishing enemies and for some reason they always cought then, it was just a matter of time..

    It's a pity CA don't wake up and bring back the old battles of STW/MTW.
    Indeed. Yet, they are doing well, economically seen, I guess? (I don't know for sure) Lots of people buy the game, love it for a few weeks, never get past 'easy', and never understand even half of the game.. but CA has their money. For us, people that dug deeper into stw, and love the game for atmosphere and the complex battle strategies etc, any of the later releases have been quite disappointing.

    btw, a while ago I couldn't get MTW:VI multiplayer to work, despite doing what everybody said was necessary. Nobody understood, so I looked for support. After lots of tiring tries, CA sent me to Sega, Sega didn't reply, etc, etc,etc. There is no proper support. I'm just mentioning because, CA overall doesn't seem very nice to us at all...

    Edit: Tony! this might help you!

    https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=56338

    It's a sticky here :P Well, it has links to all sorts of campaig stories. If you look back on the last 10-20 pages, there's some detailed reports of battles as well. Campaign stories are usually quite fun to read, and can be very helpful!

    Have fun!

    Last edited by Drisos; 01-29-2008 at 01:55.
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  17. #17
    Sage Member Wasp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    And don't forget to just sit back and enjoy as you slowly see the world map filled with your own (blue Uesugi ) colour..
    The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish, and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten. The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits. When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten. The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    I've been playing Shogun on and off for years. It never loses its' charm. Just finished a campaign with the Uesugi and now am trying out the Hojo. Does anyone know what advantages the AI gets on the harder settings? I've always played at normal as for me this is hard enough..lol.

  19. #19
    Weird Organism Senior Member Drisos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Hi thip,

    Welcome!

    On Hard, (and Hardest, the more) the units's the computer uses in battle will be counted with having +1 honour, iirc. So, it's actually a way of cheating for the computer. (on hardest it's +2)

    I don't know how the difficulty involves the campaign phase (not battles).. It get slight smarter, I guess..

    Note: I used to play on and off as well (still do), and I was always on Easy and Normal, until I became active here. Reading stories, and asking things, etc etc. In no time I could win at Expert.(easily!)

    So, stick around if you want to defeat expert soon :P Questions are more than welcome!

    On the difficulty, as for battles, Normal is fair. On Easy, you cheat. On Hard the AI cheats. On Hardest it cheats even harder.

    cya!
    - Chu - Gi - Makoto - Rei - Jin - Yu - Meiyo -

  20. #20

    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Hello Drisos,
    thanks for the quick reply. The increased honour would make it very hard to break the enemies morale. I would definitely have to plan a lot more in advance when attacking....which is hard enough, but very rewarding when the enemy breaks and runs.
    Another silly question. Hope you don't mind. But I played a number of campaigns as the Shimazu (Green guys on the western side of Nippon). I would take all the Ronin territory, knock out Mori (Red guys) and move into central japan...to be confronted by Uesugi who out numbers my armies by 10 to 1...rofl.
    Silly question..but is it possible for the Shimazu to win? I gave up with them in the end.

  21. #21

    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    It is possible. The solution would be to attack faster, or to hold on difensive ground such as that river province just left of yamashiro (kawasaki?) and use archers/muskets to destroy the attacking uesugi.

    testing...
    Last edited by Sasaki Kojiro; 02-10-2008 at 17:03.

  22. #22
    Sage Member Wasp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    It's definitely possible to win, but the Uesugi have the more fertile lands, therefore more cash to spend on troops and upgrades. Like Sasaki says, you'll have to be fast or smart. Preferably both
    The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish, and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten. The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits. When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten. The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.

  23. #23
    The Creator of Stories Member Parallel Pain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Is this map http://www.totalwar.org/hosted/TotalwarShogun/
    the game map?

    Cause it doesn't seem very...historically accurate?

  24. #24
    Sage Member Wasp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Quote Originally Posted by Parallel Pain
    Is this map http://www.totalwar.org/hosted/TotalwarShogun/
    the game map?

    Cause it doesn't seem very...historically accurate?
    I assume you mean the "Map of Japan". Yes, that's the map as used in the game. Notice that it is turned a bit compared to the map of Japan we know from the regular world map; this might have caused your confusion.
    The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish, and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten. The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits. When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten. The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.

  25. #25
    The Creator of Stories Member Parallel Pain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    No what I mean is why does the Oda have such a large area. Didn't Nobunaga actually have to UNITE Owari province first?

    And why is Takeda split in two? I thought the Takeda was confined to Kai before Shingen's expansion.

    And shouldn't Uesugi not have Echigo, as someone had usurped it? (They only get it back after the Uesugi guy passed on his name to the would-to-be-Uesuigi-Kenshin guy. I'm pretty sure even though the Uesugi had Kantoukanrei title they didn't have real control over the northern provinces.
    And they most definately should not have Shinano.

    That sort of stuff.

  26. #26

    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    The original shogun had a historically innacurate campaign map. The expansion included three campaigns starting in 1530, 1550, and 1580 which have as you say, the Takeda confined to Kai and The Oda in Owari. Of course the expansion also includes invisible ninja super warriors

  27. #27
    The Creator of Stories Member Parallel Pain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Is there some way to mod out battle ninjas and kensais?

    Along with any other fantasy unit I don't know about?

    And make the new units more balanced?

  28. #28
    Sage Member Wasp's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    I don't think you can get them out, but you can at least mod their stats in such a way that they become useless. Don't know if that's something you're looking for.
    The purpose of a fish trap is to catch fish, and when the fish are caught, the trap is forgotten. The purpose of a rabbit snare is to catch rabbits. When the rabbits are caught, the snare is forgotten. The purpose of words is to convey ideas. When the ideas are grasped, the words are forgotten. Where can I find a man who has forgotten words? He is the one I would like to talk to.

  29. #29
    The Creator of Stories Member Parallel Pain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Can I make them so expensive that NO ONE would be able to afford them?

    Like Iunno 100 000 koku for one?

  30. #30
    The Creator of Stories Member Parallel Pain's Avatar
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    Default Re: Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

    Sorry for double post *Where is the edit button*

    If this can be done, would it mess around the AI?

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