Where has all the battle tactics advice gone?

[Martok]

If you play long enough to let the dutch come, accept. Their offer has no downsides.

Yeah, I never accept the Portuguese' offer to become Catholic. While the religious income is nice and early Arqs can be useful, it's still almost never worthwhile for me. Aside from risking revolt and the fact that Arquebusiers aren't *that* nice, I also don't like losing the ability to train WM.

[LittleGrizzly]

well i think if you just accept the offer one turn, start building potuguese trading post (or a few) then after thier complete train a WM and its as if you never changed in the first place, Im pretty sure just training an arq doesn't change you back to christianity.

I would say its worth it to get guns, they have lots of ammo and can kill alot of men in the right situations, with 12 guns a few good infantry units and a good defensive position you can beat a full stack of top qaulity troops, on the cheap!

[thip]

Thanks guys for the ideas. I can't resist building the churhes everywhere and getting the Cathedral. Heaps of income..lol.

[LittleGrizzly]

whats the income like ?

I don't think i ever got around to building a cathedral...

[Drisos]

I don't recall, but I do recall you could build several cathedrals by making sure they would start building the same turn. (normally you were allowed to build only 1.. while they gave good income.)

btw, very intresting this:

well i think if you just accept the offer one turn, start building potuguese trading post (or a few) then after thier complete train a WM and its as if you never changed in the first place, Im pretty sure just training an arq doesn't change you back to christianity.

I'm definitely going to try! Thans!

[LittleGrizzly]

One thing, im unsure if its training a WM that changes your religion back or actually building a temple...

[Togakure]

The risk you run when going Christian is a big drop in overall provincial happiness initially (people don't like big changes). This improves slowly over time. As usual, if you anticipate this you can take steps before going Christian to minimize the impact.

Any province with a Buddhist Temple is at risk of revolt when you go Christian. Therefore, station a larger garrison of Ashigaru (50% less upkeep compared to a samurai garrison, and just as effective when considering keeping the peace), and shinobi in any province that has one.

Any formerly rebel province that was affiliated with or controlled by Ikko Ikki (Kaga, Noto, Etchu, Echizen, Ise, Kii, Yamashiro, and perhaps some of the other initially rebel provinces in the Yamashiro area), will also have a higher rate of unhappiness at first if you choose to go Christian. Kaga, Yamashiro, Ise, and Kii are particular hotspots that will need attention before you go Christian if you want to avoid revolts.

I don't often build border watch towers or forts, but you can build these ahead of time too if you can afford it (shinobi cost less initially, have no upkeep cost that I'm aware of, are just as effective, are portable, and have other functions besides just keeping the peace).

You can still build monks if you controlled Temples before the change, and it doesn't affect your status as a Christian to my knowledge (once a Christian, always a Christian if you look at the alliances tab). Just monitor the happiness in all of your provinces carefully until your subjects get used to the big change. Build churches and use priests to accelerate this process, particularly in Buddhist hotspots. When provincial happiness levels out again you can reduce/reassign your garrisons and reassign the shinobi to other hotspots.

I haven't played in a while so I'm not sure if you can build new Buddhist Temples after going Christian. I don't think you can.

The bottom line is, you can be Christian and still produce and use monks if you manage things carefully.

***

I'm in awe of your cleverness Masamune. Who'd have thought of a strategy like that? Brilliant.

Thanks, you are too kind. Some would consider this strategy exploitive of the AI. I don't make a habit of using the ninja lure or general-star factory nowadays, but enjoyed the counterattack method and fringe benefits when I was first attacked in this manner (back in 2003, lol).

***

Just saw the question about Chathedral income, which is 100 Koku per year from every Church in Japan--even those not owned by you. Like Port income and unlike harvests, it does not fluctuate. Ports, Mines, and Churches are the secret to consistent, predictable wealth (which enables consistent financial planning).

***

Are you playing Warlords 1.02 or the original?? I have never in my uncountable number of SP games noticed my status changing back to Buddhist after accepting Christianity. I play 1.02 when I play SP (except when I play a Mongol campaign; I play 1.03 or 1.05 for that).

[thip]

Thanks Masamune. Your post explains why I can still build WM and Arcs at the same time. If you can't revert to Buddhism then I won't lose income from Cathedral.
I'm playing with Gold Edition v1.00 and I'm pretty sure I get 200 koku per church. I'll check tonight.

Drisos...love your idea of building several Cathedrals at once. Have to work out now if having 2 Cathedrals would double your church income. I suppose it would.

[Spongie]

The end movie about the bamboo curtain and the, ah, "expulsion" of foreign superstitions is still the same, I assume? In which case, I find it rather amusing that your daimyo is merely using Christianity for his own ends...

[thip]

How could you think such a thing Spongie? My Daimyo is spreading the Good Word of the Lord to the wretched heathens. To save their poor souls.
But if he happens to make a few Koku out of it...then praise the Lord.

[Martok]

What's this? A daimyo using religion as a tool in his quest to become Shogun? Surely not!

[whistles innocently]

[thip]

By the way guys. I have been experimenting and just for the record building 2 Cathedrals doesn't double the income from churches. But if you can stop the revolts you get 200 koku per church as well as 200 koku per trading post.
If you built telmples before accepting the Christian offer then you still get WM.
It doesn't get much better than that..lol.

[Wasp]

Interesting, thip! So there's no reason to build more than one cathedral?

And is there a disadvantage to training Warrior Monks with your 'old' temples? Revolts or anything?

[Togakure]

Interesting, thip! So there's no reason to build more than one cathedral?

And is there a disadvantage to training Warrior Monks with your 'old' temples? Revolts or anything?

I haven't noticed any. I don't build a lot of monks usually though. No Dachi in SP serve the shock troop function just fine and are much cheaper. They have a better charge, which is what I use shock troops for, so I tend to use them over monks. If I'm playing Mori I use Sohei instead of No Dachi though.

In WE 1.02 the game only allows you to build one Cathedral. After you build one, the option to build disappears, even if the province meets the requirements for one. I haven't played 1.0 in ages and ages (but this discussion is making me curious to try it again).

[Drisos]

By the way guys. I have been experimenting and just for the record building 2 Cathedrals doesn't double the income from churches.

ok, now you mention it, I do recall some discussion on the more-then-one cathedral thing from before. Well.. might not get the income, but it is actually possible to build several. Minor glitch

[thip]

The only disadvantage I suppose is that you can't build new temples or upgrade your existing temples once you accept christianity.

Drisos, using your method to get 2 or more temples does have one advantage I realised the hard way. If you lose the province with the cathedral to ronin then they destroy the cathedral and you lose the income. If you had another cathedral you would still get the income.

This is probably more of an exploit I suppose. The game designers probably only wanted/intended the player to have the one cathedral.

Busy fighting off ronin at the moment...and Takeda was resurrected..lol. Not fair...

[thip]

I was wondering if you guys play with the timer on? I have had the situation in large battles where I have routed the enemy and given chase.
The problem is that as his army exits, his reinforcements then arrive all over the field and usually behind my army which is now exhausted...and can't withdraw without a fight.
Consequently, the time usually expires before I can win. Any thoughts...?

[Spongie]

I prefer to play with timer off (true for MTW as well). It means you have to win, rather than playing to the clock...

[Martok]

I prefer to play with timer off (true for MTW as well). It means you have to win, rather than playing to the clock...

Same here. I haven't played STW or MTW with the timer on in years.

[Drisos]

I used to play with timer on, always. Nowadays in my first campaigns without timer.

Doesn't make much of a difference it seems. In big battles I don't need victory right away, I just slaughter their initial army and come back next turn to finish the rest.

A timer is useful when slight glitches occur. I've had a couple of times that routing units of the enemy couln't reach the border. They were stuck, and I couldn't kill them either. If you have no timer, you've got nothing but esc and you lose. But it happens only very rarely.

[Wasp]

I never have the timer on either. I think it's a silly idea that if you hide long enough, you win the battle! Now if it was something like, if the timer expires before there's contact, your defensive force secretly retreats to the castle or another province without anybody winning or losing.

[Togakure]

I play with the timer off. This can create a challenge if the enemy has a cavalry archer unit and you don't have cavalry yet. It can be hard to chase them down and corner them or drive them off the battlefield.

Conversely, with the timer on, it's too easy if you have a cavalry archer unit to just run from the enemy and "win" the battle by avoiding the enemy--even a fairly large army if they don't have cavalry.

[LittleGrizzly]

In a battle where the enemy had loads of reinforcements i would usually try to chase the enemy most of the way to the back of the map then if im defender choose a hill close by or if i am attacker wait back for the enemy to bring thier army out as on then i would attack.

I would find after killing thier first enemy if they were coming from all over the back of the map and i was trying to fight lots of little skirmishes i would lose more troops

The timer i usually didn't use, though i think it made attacking a bit more intrestng, especially if they had a bi army there.

[Puzz3D]

Conversely, with the timer on, it's too easy if you have a cavalry archer unit to just run from the enemy and "win" the battle by avoiding the enemy--even a fairly large army if they don't have cavalry.

That's why the Benny Hill code is in the game to prevent that tactic from working, although, it was modified to be not as effective when Mongol Invasion was released. The Benny Hill code is not in effect if the ranged unit still has ammo. It's a non issue for me since I simply don't use that exploit, and the AI doesn't do it. I've gone back to playing with the timer on because it makes attacking harder. The idea behind the timer was to simulate having to win the battle before sundown.

[Togakure]

I guess it wouldn't make much of a difference whether I used the timer now or not. I tend to be aggressive on the battlefield in SP, whether attacking or defending. I find that the AI does better when you attack. If I wait for it to come to me, attacks tend to be poorly coordinated and it's usually easy to repulse them unless I'm significantly outnumbered or have units that don't counter the enemy units well.

I wonder where the idea came from that battles shouldn't extend beyond nightfall. Surely armies didn't just pack up and wait til dawn, or go home if it got dark? Granted, it's just a movie, but in Kagemusha a battle after sundown is illustrated. Can any history buffs comment about this in general--battles extending beyond nightfall throughout history etc.?

[TosaInu]

Hello Masamune,

Nightfall and bad wheather conditions are used, at least for manoeuvres and raids.

Uesugi Kenshin and Takeda Shingen used both in their Kawanakajima campaigns.
Oda Nobunaga killed Imagawa Yoshimoto at Okehazama during a bad thunderstorm.

Night attacks are great, they don't even have to be large scale or directly effective: you'll deprive the defenders/other camp of the needed sleep. A worn out enemy is easier to defeat the next day (your own main army being rested).

I can't tell you stats, sorry.

[Puzz3D]

Uesugi Kenshin and Takeda Shingen used both in their Kawanakajima campaigns.
Oda Nobunaga killed Imagawa Yoshimoto at Okehazama during a bad thunderstorm.

The 4th Battle of Kawanakajima did not take place at night.
The Battle of Okehazama took place after an afternoon thunderstorm.

[Parallel Pain]

Didn't the 4th Battle of Kawanakajima took place on hachimanpara(sp?) after the morning fog cleared?

Though I think TosaInu is talking about nighttime maneuvers. Shingen maneuvered during the night to position himself where he thought he could cut off and destroy a routed Kenshin.
Kenshin himself moved off the mountain under cover of darkness. Though I wonder why he moved off at all. He had height advantage and was equal in numbers against the detachment sent to assault him.
But if he's trying to kill Shingen, then maybe I guess...

Also during I think the 1st Battle, Shingen launched nightraids against Kenshin's rear when he moved too deep into Shinano, forcing him to withdraw.

But night battles do not happen that often. There are many examples of night raids, and a good night raid against an unprepared enemy could end the battle right then and there.
However to my knowledge, the only real night battles are where one side catch the other completely by surprise (and there aren't that many of these). There isn't really night battles where two armies form up to engage each other in the normal head-on and flanking maneuvers because it's too hard to co-ordinate movement at night.

[TosaInu]

Hello Parallel Pain,

The epitome was fought between 6am and 12 at Hachimanbara at the Kawanakajima plain near the Saigawa and Chikumagawa rivers indeed.

The Takeda plan was roughly that a small force would drive Uesugi off the Saijosan hill (this was a night manoeuvre known as operation Woodpecker, 12,000 men).

The Uesugi forces would panick and rout, cross the Chikumagawa river and run home. The Takeda main body was originally on the other riverbank (known to Kenshin), but Shingen expected a rout/retreat along the opposite bank. And so the main Takeda forces forded the river at night. This mainbody would hit the routing/retreating army very hard.

Kenshin had plans too. He also forded the river at night, unknown to Shingen. Uesugi left a small detachment of 1,000 to defend the ford.
He was going launch a surprise attack (Shingen would face South, he would attack from the West).

The Takeda lined up in the crane formation at 6 am, that's a formation used to surround. At 7 am the Uesugi charged out of the mist, not what Takeda expected and also too soon (as they didn't hear the Woodpecker noise yet).

The Woodpecker force heard the noise now and had to rush downhill, they wanted to ford the river but met resistance. 12 to 1 and they finally won.

The battle was a defeat and victory for both. 72% Uesugi and 62% (including able leaders) Takeda casualties.

[Parallel Pain]

Yeah I know that.

Not sure if the Takeda actually faced South though. The route Kenshin originally took to get on the mountain (and the route he took down it) would require Takeda to face West. Also the position of the woodpecker force would have effectively prevented any routers from going through the crossing that the woodpecker force ended up taking (a different crossing from the Uesugi force, one more to the East). If Shingen wanted to cut off the retreat at this crossing, he would face south. But the woodpecker force in effect made it so that he had no reason to cut off the retreat at this crossing as no troops would route through there. So I think Takeda faced West. Otherwise the Takeda would have routed almost as soon as it began, and yet they miraculously held on for 6h.

Also an interesting thing from the TV series Fuurinkazan is that Yamamoto Kansuke had the arbequeous fire almost as soon as he saw the Uesugi forces through the fog, and the sun of the arbequeous warned the Takeda troops on the mountian.

I still don't get why Kenshin moved off the mountain though. The wookpecker strategy relies on the fact the 12 000 men team take the Uesugi line by surprise due to the fog. But Kenshin obviously figured out what they were going to do, so Takeda already lost the element of surprised. In fact Kenshin himself had the element of surprise that he can use to hit either one of Takeda's divisions.

Also if I read the Japanese Wikipedia correctly, and I could be wrong as my Japanese isn't THAT great (but in any case I don't trust the English one), the deathtoll is 3000 for Uesugi and 4000 for Takeda. That's far from the obviously-over-exaggerated percentage given by the English one.

Of course given that Kenshin set out from Echigo with 15~18 000, 3000 is still very high casualties.

But its true that Kenshin suffered much casualties that when he went to Kantou again in November, he didn't have enough troops to fight as hard as he wanted. Begs the question where the 100 000 men allied army of the Kantou lords went this time.

Of course the Kouyou Gunkan is also known for a lot of inaccuracies. Maybe this is one of them.

EDIT: YAY! I just realized I am member! Good now edit mistake.