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Thread: Elephants

  1. #31
    CA UK Design Staff CA Intrepid Sidekick's Avatar
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    CA Re: Elephants

    There wont be anything to stop people trying to ship their elephants across the oceans, except enemy shipping or a lack of funds.
    Replacing dead elephants will of course not be simple. You will have to ship them from their point of origin.
    The fact that they make big targets will probably put many folks off using them for assaults on massed troops armed with guns.
    As said elsewhere by folks, they make good pack animals and are very useful for moving the big guns.
    Intrepid Sidekick
    ~CA UK Design Staff~


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    "They couldn't hit an Elephant at this dist..." Last words of General John Sedgewick, Union General, 1864.

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    Disclaimer: Any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.

  2. #32
    the G-Diffuser Senior Member pevergreen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    This game already shows discerning lack of camels.

    I think Camel Oil Warriors should be confirmed as playable for everyone immediately.
    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
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  3. #33
    Just another Member rajpoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepid Sidekick
    There wont be anything to stop people trying to ship their elephants across the oceans, except enemy shipping or a lack of funds.
    Even if one forgets historical accuracy for a moment, how at all will the elephants be depicted on board during naval battles?!


    The horizon is nothing save the limit of our sight.

  4. #34
    CA UK Design Staff CA Intrepid Sidekick's Avatar
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    CA Re: Elephants

    They wont appear on decks in naval battles. They will be carried in transports.
    Intrepid Sidekick
    ~CA UK Design Staff~


    'On two occasions, I have been asked, "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answer come out?"
    I am not able to rightly apprehend the confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.'

    Mr. C. Babbage - Inventor of the Difference Engine

    "They couldn't hit an Elephant at this dist..." Last words of General John Sedgewick, Union General, 1864.

    http://www.totalwar.com

    Disclaimer: Any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.

  5. #35
    the G-Diffuser Senior Member pevergreen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    How about the camels?
    I believe their camely powers allow them the special "Shoot Hump" ability in sea battles. Its a one off cannon shot, it kills the unit though.
    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    The org will be org until everyone calls it a day.

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    but I joke. Some of my best friends are Vietnamese villages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Anyone who wishes to refer to me as peverlemur is free to do so.

  6. #36
    CA UK Design Staff CA Intrepid Sidekick's Avatar
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    CA Re: Elephants

    Camels on ships..hmm now thats tricky.
    Pirate camels were a common problem in the 18th century.
    Animating camels swinging from the rigging is very hard to do without reference, and modern camels tend not to be so adept, as their 18th century pirate cousins, so getting mocap is very hard
    Intrepid Sidekick
    ~CA UK Design Staff~


    'On two occasions, I have been asked, "Pray, Mr. Babbage, if you put into the machine wrong figures, will the right answer come out?"
    I am not able to rightly apprehend the confusion of ideas that could provoke such a question.'

    Mr. C. Babbage - Inventor of the Difference Engine

    "They couldn't hit an Elephant at this dist..." Last words of General John Sedgewick, Union General, 1864.

    http://www.totalwar.com

    Disclaimer: Any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.

  7. #37
    the G-Diffuser Senior Member pevergreen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Well, Im sure I can get a few volunteers to show up at CA Australia in Camel costumes to help out.
    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    The org will be org until everyone calls it a day.

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan View Post
    but I joke. Some of my best friends are Vietnamese villages.
    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Anyone who wishes to refer to me as peverlemur is free to do so.

  8. #38
    Whimsysmith & Designy Bloke CA Captain Fishpants's Avatar
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    CA Re: Elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by Furious Mental
    Well there is a suit of armour for an elephant from 18th century India in a museum somewhere, so that would suggest that elephants were still used there. I think they were also used in south east Asia.
    The only elephant armour "in captivity" is to be found in the thoroughly wonderful Royal Armouries, Leeds in Yorkshire. The museum is well worth a visit for everything else too!
    Gentlemen should exercise caution and wear stout-sided boots when using the Fintry-Kyle Escape Apparatus. Ladies, children, servants and those of a nervous disposition should be strongly encouraged to seek other means of hurried egress.

    The formal bit: Any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.

  9. #39
    Just another Member rajpoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Fishpants
    The only elephant armour "in captivity" is to be found in the thoroughly wonderful Royal Armouries, Leeds in Yorkshire. The museum is well worth a visit for everything else too!

    We have complete suits of elephant armour, atleast a dozen howdahs and flails, all belonging to the elephants used by the local rulers of the city before 1947, and now in the museum in the city fort.............


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  10. #40
    Nomad horse archer Member Barbarian's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepid Sidekick
    They wont appear on decks in naval battles. They will be carried in transports.
    That's quite logical: man, who lets elephants take a walk on the deck during naval battles, is not worthy of the title "captain"
    Last edited by Barbarian; 01-21-2008 at 18:15.


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  11. #41
    Member Member Matt_Lane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by Captain Fishpants
    The only elephant armour "in captivity" is to be found in the thoroughly wonderful Royal Armouries, Leeds in Yorkshire.
    Bag yourself a bargain at http://www.pugsguns.com/displayItem.do?id=976 One lady owner, low millage (trunk road miles only), yours for a snip at $95,000 (sold as seen)

    Elephants were native beasts there (Iberia), as were lions in Italy, long long time back.
    Hanibals 38 Elephants were African Elephants, part of a corps of 200 brought across the Straits of Gibraltar by transports during the conquest of Iberia.

  12. #42
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by Matt_Lane
    Bag yourself a bargain at http://www.pugsguns.com/displayItem.do?id=976 One lady owner, low millage (trunk road miles only), yours for a snip at $95,000 (sold as seen)
    $95,000 isn't a snip without engine.
    Ja mata

    TosaInu

  13. #43
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Engines For Sale for a mere $2,000.

    Shipping and handling extra, presumeably. (I wonder how many postage stamps it would take?)
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  14. #44
    Nur-ad-Din Forum Administrator TosaInu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Ja mata

    TosaInu

  15. #45
    Prince of Maldonia Member Toby and Kiki Champion, Goo Slasher Champion, Frogger Champion woad&fangs's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepid Sidekick
    Camels on ships..hmm now thats tricky.
    Pirate camels were a common problem in the 18th century.
    Animating camels swinging from the rigging is very hard to do without reference, and modern camels tend not to be so adept, as their 18th century pirate cousins, so getting mocap is very hard
    That will be siggied.

    Thanks for answering our questions by the way. It is very appreciated.

    Edit: Nvm, not going to be siggied. It will go on my user page, however.
    Last edited by woad&fangs; 01-22-2008 at 03:48.
    Why did the chicken cross the road?

    So that its subjects will view it with admiration, as a chicken which has the daring and courage to boldly cross the road,
    but also with fear, for whom among them has the strength to contend with such a paragon of avian virtue? In such a manner is the princely
    chicken's dominion maintained. ~Machiavelli

  16. #46
    Undercover Lurker Member Mailman653's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by Intrepid Sidekick
    Pirate camels were a common problem in the 18th century.
    Animating camels swinging from the rigging is very hard to do
    Will they have a cutlass as well?

  17. #47
    Ranting madman of the .org Senior Member Fly Shoot Champion, Helicopter Champion, Pedestrian Killer Champion, Sharpshooter Champion, NFS Underground Champion Rhyfelwyr's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Can any of the 10 playable factions get these elephants? Do I sense an AOR system...
    At the end of the day politics is just trash compared to the Gospel.

  18. #48
    Freedom Fighters Clan LadyAnn's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by TosaInu
    No, TosaInu, it is Elephant Hunting Season!

    Annie
    AggonyJade of the Brotherhood of Aggony, [FF]ladyAn or [FF]Jade of the Freedom Fighters

  19. #49

    Default Re: Elephants

    I for one would like to see Rock-Elephants rocking out on the deck of ships. Wailing furiously on thier elephantine guitars, filling the sails with the tempest gale of thier African Styled Hendrix grooves.

    But that will probably never happen, because CA don't care about rocking out.

    So unrealistic!

  20. #50

    Default Re: Elephants

    I reckon they had a few at the Maiden gig in Mumbai Friday.

  21. #51
    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by asj_india
    Elephants were native beasts there, as were lions in Italy, long long time back.

    I think the possible introduction of elephants is merely to please fanboys.
    Elephants simply had no chance whatsoever against any gunpowder unit of the 18th Century. One round of musket bullets from a 40 musketeers towards a compact mass of elephants would be enough to bring down plenty of them while they were still in the distance. While Indians had 1.70 m in size, Indian Elephants were about 3-4 tall, and very easy to hit at a distance where humans wouldn't be as much. I think the only good purpose dozens of elephants would have in that period against any nation who used muskets would be to waste their bullets and nothing more.

    EDIT: Unless they make UBER-BULLET RESISTING ELEPHANTS OF DOOM which wouldn't surprise me at all.
    Last edited by Jolt; 02-08-2008 at 19:09.
    BLARGH!

  22. #52

    Default Re: Elephants

    That would be why war elephants weren't used in Europe in the 18th century. There were still plenty of them in use in south-east Asia.

  23. #53
    Vindicative son of a gun Member Jolt's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Elephants were rarely used in Europe even when they could provoke a devastating effect, one time by Pyrrhus and another time by Hannibal. I don't recall any other usage of elephants militarily.
    BLARGH!

  24. #54

    Default Re: Elephants

    Yeah I know that, I was being sarcastic, but that's not the point. The point is Europe and SE Asia are two different places and they waged war differently. Something that would have been regarded as ridiculous in one place would have been quite normal in the other, and vice versa. Elephants are a perfect example.
    Last edited by Furious Mental; 02-12-2008 at 04:49.

  25. #55
    Honorary Argentinian Senior Member Gyroball Champion, Karts Champion Caius's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by LadyAnn
    Hannibal didn't bring the war elephants (the particular ones that crossed the Alps) all the way from North Africa. At the time, Hannibal raised the army from Iberia and marched from there. Iberia at the beginning of the Second Punic War was still in the hand of Carthage.

    Don't know from where the elephants were first brought into Iberia though...

    Annie
    Yes he did. Historically, he did. He built bridges to pass some areas he was stuck with water.




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  26. #56
    Member Member Matt_Lane's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Quote Originally Posted by Caius
    Yes he did. Historically, he did. He built bridges to pass some areas he was stuck with water.
    Hamilcar took the Elephants over to Iberia during his conquest of it so they were already there when Hanibal took over the army after Hamilcars death. The Elephants were probably African with at least one Syrian Elephant and although much is written about Hanibal crossing the Alps and the Rhone (by raft) not much is mentioned about ferrying Packerderms across the straits of Gibraltar, even more impressive considering the Roman navy was dominant at the time.

  27. #57
    Member Member Ozzman1O1's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Elephants proved their worth to carthage after they killed many enemies in the truceless war,They were used in new carthage,cardoba,and anywhere else in spain the carthaginians settled....
    :

  28. #58
    Member Member Mr Frost's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    Transporting any elephants in number sufficient to be militarily useful over open ocean {or for that matter , the length of the Med unless you owned the shore you skirted and used lots of short "hops" with long rests in between} should be nigh impossible for the transport technology of the day .




    The logistics of feeding and tending even one elephant over such distances on a 18th century ship would be daunting enough , but the several dozen required to make any impact on the scale represented in a Total War battle would be almost certainly beyond the capabilities of any nation at that time .

    Most the creatures would almost certainly be dead from disease or infection {from having to remain so sedentiary for so long ; not good if you weigh 4 tonnes !} by the time the ships arived at destination even if they were transpoted only one per ship so enough fodder could be carried to keep them fed for the time of a voyage from , say India to Spain or England to South America {check just how much weight and volume of food an elephant requires each day then do the math} .





    I get the impression that suppilying armies still isn't a concideration beyond mere money . A shame if my impression is correct .

    Logistics define a militaries' ability to wage war more than training or equiptment , and would certainly fix silly ideas such as shipping 2 dozen Elephants and a whole army together half way accross the planet and having them even close to 100% combat ready {or , for that matter , 100% surviving} when the arrive !
    Invading a country {with any real measure of success} accross an ocean should be a vastly more difficult undertaking than doing such accross dry land routs !
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  29. #59

    Default Re: Elephants

    To me having elephants would be just another overhyped impractical unit that will just be in the way of good gaming.

    OOOooooor the CA way and its just an excuse to mount a howetiser on its back or something of that sort....

  30. #60
    Member Member PBI's Avatar
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    Default Re: Elephants

    There are two kinds of elephants present in TW games.

    There are the unstoppable, indestructible walking tanks of the Timurids in M2TW, and there are the potentially powerful, but hard to use well and surprisingly fragile elephants of Broken Crescent.

    It would be absurd if the first type were present in the game, but I wouldn't have any problem with the second type being there, especially since they will be totally outclassed by the weaponry of the period anyway. In fact I think it would seem very strange to conquer India and not encounter elephants.

    Regarding the logistics of naval transport, CA has always wisely left them out almost completely, making it possible to load an entire army of thousands with attached siege train on a single bireme, and sail it halfway around the world without stopping. In my view this is the lesser of two evils, if they were represented correctly the player would spend half the game just worrying about building transports and laying down provisions and barely ever get to fight an actual battle, especially since Empire will focus so heavily on overseas expansion. And consider how hard the poor AI already finds it to conduct a half-decent amphibious attack.

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