Elephants

[JeromeGrasdyke]

To me having elephants would be just another overhyped impractical unit that will just be in the way of good gaming.

OOOooooor the CA way and its just an excuse to mount a howetiser on its back or something of that sort....

Hmmmm... upright armoured elephants with a hand-cannon in each forefoot and a laser gun mounted on the trunk... tempting... but no. Sorry. Not even as a cheat unit.

[Caerfanan]

Hmmmm... upright armoured elephants with a hand-cannon in each forefoot and a laser gun mounted on the trunk... tempting... but no. Sorry. Not even as a cheat unit.

OK, I'll probably buy the game then!

[ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88]

I'll be sadded if they didn't have ELes in ETW. Besides, you going to invade Indina and not see Eles ?

[pike master]

Awesome info from Matt on elephant warfare.

Elephants were most certianly brought up from the northwest coast of Africa under Hannibal. 11th century contemporary wall paintings depict Moorish war elephants. So one would assume that the Forest Elephant was still around in limited numbers.

Africa was not the only source of Elephants during the Roman era. Pyrhuss used elephants that were raised from the Balkans.

Elephants were still being used as beast of burden on occasion carrying weapons and supplies during the Vietnam war.

[Jolt]

Haha, elephants raised in mountainous Albania, that's a good one. Pyrrhus' full grown elephants were of Indian origin given to/bought by (don't remember which one) Pyrrhus from the Seleucids. In any standard occasion, Pyrrhus could never raise elephants in such a climate.

To Jerome: Since "Laz0r elephants" can't be on, what about "Kevlar Elephants"? Not a bad idea. I'm sure it would appease all elephant fanboys, it's from the same line as Schreeing Women, Head Hurlers or Siberian Amazon Chariots! :)

[LadyAnn]

Ah I miss the screeching women!

Annie

[Jochi Khan]

Ah I miss the screeching women!

Annie

They were a sight to see Annie.

[DefenderofFuture]

I think Creative Assembly just LOVES elephants. Elephants were only used in minor roles at this time, where they were at all. But the same was true of the Medieval period, and that didn't stop CA from including them in M2TW. I think it's a safe bet that they will be included, and they will be unrealistically powerful. But I don't mind. If I want realism, I'll download mods from The Guild!

[batemonkey]

Well there is a suit of armour for an elephant from 18th century India in a museum somewhere, so that would suggest that elephants were still used there. I think they were also used in south east Asia.

It's in the Royal Armouries in Leeds, apprently they trained the elephant to use a sword or cudgel with its trunk!!

I know that when clive of india came up against the elephants he wiped them out and the indians were not best pleased

[RLucid]

Come on guys, Ele's are wimpy old hat, must be oldfashioned now, it's not RTW!

They could spice things up with "Primeval" style units. For instance a platoon of mounted archers on T-Rex's would be far more exciting, just watch those pike & musket-men run when the earth moves for them and 12 tons of terror lizard try to take a chomp out of them! Other new world options, Sabre Tooth's and Short Faced Bears would also be cool!

Imagine how the strange smell & roar of T-Rex-ies would insta-rout all the other animal based units!

[Furious Mental]

War elephants were still in plentiful use in some eras. Saying that they were outdated and therefore not used makes no sense; it is precisely because of the advantage Europeans had from uneven technological and military development that they crushed so many enemies. You may as well deduce that spears, bows and arrows, and matchlocks were not used anywhere either.

[RLucid]

I was being tongue in cheek humerous, ironical, not serious. In particular reacting to comments about Ele's being included and being over-powered and the sword/club wielding Ele.

Seriously though, I saw somewhere a map for ETW, I remember it looked funny with S. Africa snipped off, was SE Asia MIA to? This post on the factions included announced factions appears to suggest SE Asia factions weren't considered significant enough.

Elephants would very likely have a role, wherever they are worked today, for logistic purposes. If they were used significantly in some areas, then fine; but they should suffer horrendously against gun powder technology, not be effective (remember grenades not just muskets). Natives had a way of acquiring European weapons, their socs. were crushed as much by disease, exploitation of divisions (British Army in India was manned mostly by Indians) and the knock on changes of new "technologies" (even horse arriving in N. America altered way of life and likely allowed raiders to cause collapse of agricultural culture through their sudden increase of mobility).

Is it really going to be a good game, if the Imperialists are competing against obsolete technology factions? Surely mainly the competition is against each other (which combined with commercial interests) appears to be the main cause of development of British Empire, rather than policy.

As for the Indian Armour, I don't see that as being very signifcant.

Clive wiping out Ele units, shows how effective they ought to be.

Wellington started out in India, in the military Historian Richard Holmes biography, Elephants get less mention (ie. none) than the WWII 1939 Polish Cavalry charge (which was actually IIRC German staged propaganda). They're not the kind of thing that's going to get missed out in accounts (you never forget an Elephant), so they must have been regarded as militarily worthless at that time.

So if the Indian's weren't using them on the battlefield in late 18th century, why might you have it made?

Even today, it's common for ceremonial purposes to have old fashioned stuff around, for instance in London it's not unknown to see shiny breastplates, swords & horse artillery. If you fight the British army, don't expect them to turn up so equipped on the battlefield. It seems very likely that exotic units would be retained for show, in a similar way.

[rajpoot]

Maybe we can have these units like we had the Holy Cross unit in M2TW, while on Crusades......not really useful for fighting but kind of a moral booster. Come to think of it, even if rulers did not actually fight on the field any longer, they can still have a nice little unit in the field, without much combat value, just to have the moral boost effect.

[RLucid]

Does it really boost your morale when some REMF (*) idiot sends something for show, rather than useful aid, that requires a lot of logistical support, which would have supported a load more guns or horses?

* REMF = Rear Echelon MF ie. someone safely distant from frontline

[rajpoot]

Well we do have the example of the cross being carried all the way to Hattin......symbols, if believed in by enough people can be more effective than you think. It is a matter of belief. And many people believe. What of the Potsdam Giants? They were symbolic.
If you look at it logically it is ofcourse ridiculous. The unit is not aiding you, in battle, infact you have to strive to keep it protected, but still, like I said, it is a matter of belief.

[RLucid]

Crosses don't eat tons of fodder every day. Nor were they going to turn and run through their own side once big bangs started; and are as dangerous to own side as opponents.

If your side actually believes in the battle Ele's its even worse, because artillery and such is going to make mincemeat of them; you up for a big morale penalty when they suffer?

The Mongols even circa 1300 had grenades with about a 20ft blast radius, do Ele's really belong on battlefield in 1700 against the factions which are basically modernising European technological powers?

I came across the map again, it's in the ETW summary sticky thread, includes SE Asia Dutch E. Indies etc, presumably as "target" trading colonies for the empires, given the main faction list. If the Morale bonsus is arguement for fantasy style Special Power units like RTW's Wardogs, Druids, Screeching Women etc; then having T-Rex's would be much cooler graphics and loads more carnage... and no sillier than Ele's waving swords from trunks etc

Perfect sense though to have Ele's as working animals, doing a real job moving stuff about and earning keep, so long as the supply issues are plausibly represented.

[RLucid]

Elephants were rarely used in Europe even when they could provoke a devastating effect, one time by Pyrrhus and another time by Hannibal. I don't recall any other usage of elephants militarily.

Think the Romans used Ele's to in early Macedonian war, where they used them as cavalry screen, like Hannibal (not the over-powered battle tank versions which chew up a whole army).

All the enemy need to do is get together some iron spikey things, bit like the barbs on barbed wire and your Ele's loose any offensive effectiveness (1 archer per Ele is not high fire density, and visible missile could be dodge by troops in open order).

So they weren't any good once opposition had some time to come up with a counter.

[rajpoot]

If your side actually believes in the battle Ele's its even worse, because artillery and such is going to make mincemeat of them; you up for a big morale penalty when they suffer?

That is why we lost, more or less outdated weapons, obsolete tactical ideas, these played a major part in many a battle....the Rajahs rode to war (whenever they did) on elephants. Riding an elephant was something the social elite did, and was considered prestigious. Ofcourse, like you say, in practical battle it was useless. But that did not make it dissapear from the scene completely.

[Furious Mental]

"do Ele's really belong on battlefield in 1700 against the factions which are basically modernising European technological powers?"

Of course. Plenty of countries still fought in medieval or even more outdated fashions. If every faction can just train modern European style armies from the outset the game will be ridiculous in terms of historical accuracy, dead boring for lack of variety, and impossibly hard if one plays as a European country trying to create an overseas empire. As happened historically, the decline of war elephants and indeed all other former military practices in places where they were still employed should be linked to the acquisition of firearms and artillery and new military ideas via trade with Europeans.

[RLucid]

Think you're asking for "realistic" Ele's there, not the Abrams M1A2 type versions some suggested (better to have obvious fantasy stuff like T-Rexs rather than distort real units unrealistically). Will be a wonder you don't have the Cruelty to Animals ppl after you

Turkey shoot battle won't be very interesting for long though.

[Furious Mental]

I think it would be interesting to play as some of the would-be victims and go about making the transition to modern military.

[RLucid]

Presumes CA will be able to design a suitable modernising tech tree, for peoples who were colonised in reality; to give you a reasonable plausible and playable option. The games going to be rather big, just with the main Western factions without fleshing out all the incidentals, to make them worthwhile playables. Is it feasible?

[rajpoot]

Trouble is, I doubt they'll do it so, that in the beginning the tech tree has weak and obsolete units, and then slowly you move on to technologically advanced once......for example, while playing Apaches in Americas, I found that there really wasn't much need to go ahead and train gunners, I could manage quite well with me stone armed spearmen and archers.......they'll balance the game in the weak factions favour rather than have reality.

[RLucid]

That's the worst of all worlds. Now we encourage Elephant M1A2 syndrome.

[Furious Mental]

Well really if they don't have a system for trade and diplomacy to disseminate technologies the game will be quite silly because it was integral to things like the Great Circuit Trade and how imperial powers co-opted native rules and used them as clients.

[Copperknickers]

I loved elephants in RTW, and always hire them as mercs in M2TW. Obviously in this time period the use of elephants has seriously diminished, but is there word of playable elephants for the factions in the "third world"? (for lack of a better term) Such as in India or Afghanistan? Or did everyone stop using them by now? I don't think elephants would be very useful against muskets...

Just to make this clear, India and Afghanistan were by no means third world countries at this time. The Mughals were one of the greatest warrior empires the world has ever seen, and they left behind them such spectacular architecture as the Taj Mahal and hte Red Fort ad Delhi. They would have used quite a lot of elephants, with riflemen on top of them, and there is evidence to suggest they were used to transport cannons.

Although the Mughals were somewhat in decline by the 18th century, they will use their elephants to put up a fierce resistance to any british or Dutch etc people with ideas on the subcontinent in ETW.

A mughal war elephant in full armour:

[Lusitani]

Elephants were native beasts there, as were lions in Italy, long long time back.

There were no native elephants in the Iberian Peninsula during the Punic Wars.

[shopperkimpy]

Siamese troops in Haws war late 19century
elephant with getling gun [right] and howitzer ?

[Furious Mental]

It's probably a falconet, similar to the sort used for zumboruks.

[LadyAnn]

What? Still talking about Elephants when CA was trying hard to show us sails? :)

Annie