Elephants

[Hoplite7]

I loved elephants in RTW, and always hire them as mercs in M2TW. Obviously in this time period the use of elephants has seriously diminished, but is there word of playable elephants for the factions in the "third world"? (for lack of a better term) Such as in India or Afghanistan? Or did everyone stop using them by now? I don't think elephants would be very useful against muskets...

[Abokasee]

Well they could probably take 2-5 shots from a musket, maybe more, but there large targets for cannons, but India I think used them, although there effectiveness was limited (if they got to a formation of troops they would massacre it, but there large targets from cannons and muskets)

[Wolf_Kyolic]

CA is working on it. As soon as they find a way of fitting them in the ships, we will have elephants on the battlefield. Many uber elephant units that wipe armies off. All you need to do is bring two and click on enemy. You won! That is cool man!

[Furious Mental]

Well there is a suit of armour for an elephant from 18th century India in a museum somewhere, so that would suggest that elephants were still used there. I think they were also used in south east Asia.

[rajpoot]

Elephants were used in warfare in India for a long long time, and I'm sure they'll be in the game at least for the Indian factions.
Afghans I believe never used elephants because fact that these beasts were found mainly in Southern and Eastern India.
Infact though it sounds insane and unpractical, yet, melee elephants with howdahs on their back were used too, even in the gunpowder age.

[Rhyfelwyr]

CA is working on it. As soon as they find a way of fitting them in the ships, we will have elephants on the battlefield. Many uber elephant units that wipe armies off. All you need to do is bring two and click on enemy. You won! That is cool man!

Well if elephants are balanced they will be an interesting addition to the game. In EB IIRC elephants were nicely balanced, they could cause carnage in melee but peltasts would kill them off pretty quickly. In M2TW they are however insanely overpowered. In my current Byz campaign, I've got some merc elephants from Baghdad on their way to Mexico.

[Wolf_Kyolic]

Balanced elephants! That rox!!!

[Rhyfelwyr]

w00t!!!11

[Matt_Lane]

The use of War Elephants decreased in the 18th century due to the advances in gunpowder weaponry although there were exceptions. The Mughals used war elephants with blades fixed to their tusks against the Persians in the Battle of Karnal in 1739. The Persian counter to this was to send camels carrying lit pots of oil charging into the ranks of elephants to panic them. When the camels were brought down the burning oil set the ground alight further hampering the Mughals.

Camals and elephants were also used as mobile artillery, sporting shaturnals, swivel mounted 1 to 2 pound artillery pieces. These could be used in a similar way to Horse Artillery in the support of light cavalry. At the Battle of Panipat of 1761 2,000 Afgan camal shaturnals decimated the Maratha's renowned light cavalry.

The main role for elephants in this period however was a beasts of burden carrying not just supplies but for hauling heavy guns. Guns drawn by bullocks would also have an elephant on hand to help push the pieces up steep inclines. The British had both camel and elephant batteries in India. Camels were used to pull up to 18lb field guns over sandy terrain whilst elephants were used to draw heavy field or siege artillery. Elephants were also used in mountain batteries where lighter guns were unlimbered and packed onto the animals then reassembled for battle.

Elephants were also seen as a status symbol and so it was common for an Indian King or Commander to lead the battle from the back of an Elephant, making himself a somewhat larger target for the enemy artillery.

[Hoplite7]

CA is working on it. As soon as they find a way of fitting them in the ships, we will have elephants on the battlefield. Many uber elephant units that wipe armies off. All you need to do is bring two and click on enemy. You won! That is cool man!

Um, assuming you're complaining about game balance, elephants would be significantly weaker in this game because of gunfire... and elephants are SUPPOSED to be overpowering, they are... you know, elephants.


And is there a reason why you chose to put this thread in your signature? I'm not a newcomer to these series by any means, maybe relatively new to the forums however.

Reading your other posts I see your manners and maturity are sadly lacking... oh well.

[Barbarian]

elephants were used to pull heavy equipment even during the world war 1. India used elephants for fighting purposes till the late 19th century

[Wolf_Kyolic]

and elephants are SUPPOSED to be overpowering, they are... you know, elephants.

They Roxors!!!

I'm not a newcomer to these series by any means,

Oh you played Shogun?

Reading your other posts I see your manners and maturity are sadly lacking... oh well.

[Husar]

Oh you played Shogun?

Yeah, anyone who didn't doeasn't really matter anyway, right?

Concerning elephants, I guess india would use them and I don't think they have to fit into ships, think about it, they can swim themselves and be used as troop transports.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well if the MP community don't want elephants, I say we scrap them. Along with artillery, horse archers, more than 5 cavalry per stack or whatever else they don't like.

In fact, why don't CA just go all the way and scrap the campaign map, drop the naval battles, remove all interesting units, and release a nice Rock-Paper-Scissor game of Swordsmen-Spearmen-Horsemen.

That'll please the 0.00001% of TW players that make up the MP community.

[Hoplite7]

Wolf:

I might not have played Shogun, but I've played this since the first Medieval. Not that it even matters at all. The fact is, the game is supposed to imitate history to some extent. They've already neutered calvary with Kingdoms for "balance". Well, nobody wants balance. History wasn't balanced, and if elephants trample rows of elite infantry in history, than it should happen in the game. Would Carthage have been balanced in MP without elephants? Obviously not.

There's plenty of great balanced strategy games out there you can play, that are totally incorrect historically. Try Age of Empires or something.

[Wolf_Kyolic]

Well, nobody wants balance.

Yes!!!!! Balance is for freaks. It is better to get rid of it. CA thinks the same, anyway! Game gets much better without the balance.

Imagine that man... You bring some best looking units (brown cavs, moustache infantry, huge elephants...) and then select all and click on enemy. Someone wins in the end and imagine the fun you get out of it during the battle. Priceless!

Go CA go. Give us what we want.

It is deserved.

[Hoplite7]

At what point during this thread did you decide to use it as a place to dump your complaints about MP balance? I asked if elephants would be included. Somehow you found it appropriate to bash me and CA, on totally unrelated issues. Take your rambling elsewhere...

[rajpoot]

Lets lose the heat people, shall we? Please lets keep this friendly and peaceful.
So coming back to elephants, I really don't there is anyway to have a considerable number of them transported over large distances over water. I mean across rivers and fords its alright, but over the seas?

think about it, they can swim themselves and be used as troop transports.

???You'll be transporting troops on elephants across the Arabian Sea to Africa??

[Hoplite7]

Lets lose the heat people, shall we? Please lets keep this friendly and peaceful.

That's hard to do when someone dedicates their signature to insulting me, for making a thread about elephants. But OK.

So coming back to elephants, I really don't there is anyway to have a considerable number of them transported over large distances over water. I mean across rivers and fords its alright, but over the seas?

Noah did it.


Seriously though, I don't think logistics have ever been an issue with TW. You can transport elephants on ships in all of the other games, after all. However, it would be strange to depict naval battles with elephants on them...

[Furious Mental]

I think we can have balance without having clone armies of boring identical units.

[Wolf_Kyolic]

I think we can have balance without having clone armies of boring identical units.

Nah. We do not need balance. It ruins the game.

[Husar]

???You'll be transporting troops on elephants across the Arabian Sea to Africa??

I meant to use them to invade America over the Atlantic.

I do think they could be transported over the seas though, I would bet some people transported them around for zoos or as expensive presents for some ruler.

[Barbarian]

I think we can have balance without having clone armies of boring identical units.

Probably, but always, when one unit is a bit better that the other, people yell "Imbalance!".

The only solution is have different unit stats and cost for campaign and and MP.

For MP: just make all armies similar, like in the chess. Only their looks will be different. Will be bloody fun.

[anders]

whats the matter wolf, you already have a perfectly well balanced tactical battle game in Shogun, in which you and the other MP veterans can test your supreme skills against one and other, and maybe even Medieval I is good enough for your refined taste, no need to complain over the new games not being perfect for your purpouse then?

btw, I thought the multiplayer community observed gentlemens agreements and refrained from using unbalanced units in a game-destroyig degree?


Im not crazy about elephants and other uber units myself, but since the SP game is trying to be some sort of historical recreation, units that were actually used in the period have a place in the game. and, if the premise is some kind of historical recreation, all units and factions cant or wont be balanced. the game is somewhere between simulation and abstract gameplay, and if some historical unit were cheaper, better, and far superior to a given other, the game should reflect that.

I think most of us whos played since STW or MTW agree those were better games gameplaywise, but thats no reason we and newcomers shouldnt be allowed to enjoy the new games, without being told were RTS-crazy 14 year olds who doesnt know what "armor-piercing" means.

Might I also suggest chess, if yoyre looking for a pure battle of the minds with fully balanced armies.

[rajpoot]

I do think they could be transported over the seas though, I would bet some people transported them around for zoos or as expensive presents for some ruler.

Trasporting one or two elephants is no big deal, but when it comes to transporting 20 or 30 elephants one has to rethink.
Anyway, I don't know what of the game, but I checked and rechecked but I didn't find anyplace where the elephants were transported overseas for wars using ships.
I mean however big a ship is how'll you manage a war elephants on board??!! You can't keep them all chained up all the time, and I really don't see the 18th centuary sailors taking them for walks across the deck .

[Furious Mental]

Well if Hannibal didn't put his war elephants on ships I don't see how they got to Europe.

[Fenix7]

Well if Hannibal didn't put his war elephants on ships I don't see how they got to Europe.

Through the Alps.

[Barbarian]

Through the Alps.

Also in this case they had to be transported on ships, even if only for a short journy to Iberian peninsula

[LadyAnn]

Hannibal didn't bring the war elephants (the particular ones that crossed the Alps) all the way from North Africa. At the time, Hannibal raised the army from Iberia and marched from there. Iberia at the beginning of the Second Punic War was still in the hand of Carthage.

Don't know from where the elephants were first brought into Iberia though...

Annie

[rajpoot]

Elephants were native beasts there, as were lions in Italy, long long time back.