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Thread: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

  1. #1
    Member Member kambiz's Avatar
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    Default Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    Both in my Current Seleukid campaign and previous Pahlava campaign ,I used these Iranian archer-Spearmen to garrison my eastern provinces. I found them cheap and effective. I used them at the beginning turns of the seleukid campaign even against Bakterian Thureophoroi and Pandodapoi phalangitai with relatively good result (I mean alongside other units). they alreayd repulsing Saka heaviest cavalry in my northeastern provinces

    Well I really like these Archer-Spearmen and like their concept of warfare. Imo Iranians developed such a combat units because they proved effective against the eastern armies ,where cavalry was the dominant force ,besides Chariots and foot units were mainly light to medium infantry. Until they reached the hellas ,Where Hoplitai as heavy infantry was core of the armies. and according to dominant view ,this was the beginning of their downfall ,although In my opinion they were not mere losers against hoplites but definitely the appearance of mecedonian phalanx was their end.

    But we know that they never enjoyed such extensive equipement their opponents had. They had no helmet ,Their spears were not long enough(And wasn't of good quality) ,Their armor usually was not sufficient to cover all of the body ,In most cases only carried a wicker shield and at last I suppose at the time of Alexander invasion ,their training (just like their state) was in decline (?!)

    So my question from EB historian is : By giving them better equipment and also better training (Considering new foes likes phalanxs) Could these archer-Spearmen once again become an important fighting units (If not the most important) of post Alexandrian era?

    Thanks beforhand for your replies

    Forgotten Empire

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    Marzbân-î Jundîshâpûr Member The Persian Cataphract's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    A short answer would be that this particular unit always had an integral part in Iranian military history; In fact, for the infantry, if armour had to be sacrificed for increasing versatility, it would not have been the issue. Deilamite heavy infantry for instance were trained to use a vast array of weaponry, and this included their devastating two-pronged short spear, swords, daggers, slings, axes and bows, in addition to their brightly painted shields. these were called by Agathias "Dilimnites":

    [3.17.7-3.17.9 is a description of the Dilimnites whom, Agathias says, “are
    accustomed for the most part to fight alongside the Persians, though not as the conscript
    contingents of a subject people since they are in fact free and independent …
    33

    In 3.18 The Dilimnites try to ambush the Sabirs, but are themselves lured into a trap
    and massacred.]
    3.19.1 Straight after the failure of this attempt Nachoragan left for Nesos and camping
    close to the Romans invited Martin to a parley. 2 On Martin's arrival he said: "You are
    such a shrewd and able general and a person of great influence among the Romans, and
    yet far from showing any inclination to stop the two monarchs from engaging in a
    mutually exhausting conflict you have allowed them to persist in the protracted ruination
    of their respective states. 3 If therefore you are agreeable to the idea of a negotiated
    settlement, why not move with your army to the Pontic city of Trebizond, whilst we
    Persians shall remain here? In this way we shall discuss the terms of the armistice at our
    leisure using trusted messengers to convey our views. 4 If you do not voluntarily
    withdraw your army from here you may rest assured that you will be driven out by force,
    for I hold victory in the palm of my hand. And, mark you, I wear her no less securely
    than I wear this". As he uttered these words he showed him the ring which he was
    wearing. 5 In answer to this Martin replied: "I do indeed consider peace to be the fitting
    object of our prayers and a most precious possession and shall help you in your efforts to
    reinstate her. However, I think it would be better if you were to move with all speed to
    Iberia while I went to Mucheirisis. That would enable us to examine the immediate
    situation. 6 As for victory, you may indulge in boastful talk if you wish and
    presumptuously imagine that she is up for sale and is there for the taking. But I say that
    the scales of victory are weighted according to the discretion of divine Providence, and
    they do not incline towards the boastful and the arrogant but towards those to whom the
    Architect of the universe nods his approval". 7 After Martin had given this pious and
    courageous reply and had shown righteous indignation at the blasphemous insolence of
    the barbarian they parted without any progress having been made towards a peaceful
    settlement. 8 Nachoragan returned to his camp and Martin to Nesos. Nachoragan felt
    that there was no point in staying where he was and so decided to go to the town of
    33
    Agathias, 3.17.9.
    Page 13
    Phasis
    34
    and lure the Romans there instead. The reason for his decision was that he
    received intelligence to the effect that the fortress there was especially vulnerable, being
    entirely constructed of wood, and that the surrounding plains were accessible and suitable
    for camping in. 9 It is, I suppose common knowledge that the town of Phasis takes its
    name from the river that flows very close to it and disembogues in its vicinity into the
    Euxine.
    35
    The town is in fact situated on the coast near to the mouth of the Phasis, and
    lies at a distance of not more than six parasangs due west of Nesos.
    20. Late at night therefore Nachoragan immediately lowered into the river and
    fastened together the light craft which he had brought with him on wagons and, thus,
    having constructed a pontoon he conveyed all his troops over to the other side without
    being observed by the Romans. 2 His plan was to reach the south side of the town, from
    which quarter the waters of the river would not bar his access to the fort since its course
    runs in the direction of the north side. 3 Towards dawn he set off from the bank of the
    river and, after making a detour in order to bypass Nesos by as safe a distance as
    possible, proceeded directly on his way.
    4 It was not until late in the morning that the Romans realized, to their alarm, that the
    Persians had crossed over. Consequently they were most anxious to reach the town
    before the enemy and manned all the triremes and thirty-oared ships which they had
    moored nearby. The boats were propelled downstream at a very great speed. 5 But
    Nachoragan had had a very good start and was in fact already half way between Nesos
    and the town. At this point he laid a barrier of timber and small boats right across the
    river, massing his elephants behind it in lines which extended as far as they could wade.
    6 Seeing this from a distance, the Roman fleet immediately began to back water. They
    had a hard job rowing in reverse with the current against them, but they pulled manfully
    at the oars and managed to back away. 7 Even so the Persians captured two empty boats
    which their crews had abandoned. When faced with imminent capture the men had
    courageously chosen to commit themselves to the mercy of the waves. It was in fact a
    choice between certain and less certain danger and they preferred to take a chance. So
    they leapt nimbly overboard and after swimming considerable a distance underwater
    barely reached the safety of their comrades' ships. 8 At this point they left Buzes with
    his army at Nesos to take charge of everything there and to bring help in case of need.
    All the others were shipped along and then across the river, after which they marched
    overland by a different route so as to avoid running into the enemy. When they arrived at
    the town of Phasis they entered its gates and the generals apportioned among themselves
    the task of manning the fortifications, since they did not feel strong enough to engage the
    enemy in a pitched battle. 9 Justin the son of Germanus and his men were stationed in
    front on the highest point, which faced towards the sea, with Martin and his forces
    occupying a nearby position. The middle part was held by Angilas with a contingent of
    Moorish troops armed with shields and lances, by Theodorus and his Tzanian heavy
    infantry, and by Philomathius with the Isaurian slingers and dart-throwers. 10 At some
    distance from these a detachment of Lombards and Heruls mounted guard under the
    command of Gibrus. The remaining stretch of wall which terminated at the Eastern
    quarter of the town was guarded by the Eastern regiments commanded by Valerian. And
    this completes the account of the disposition of the Roman forces defending the walls.
    34
    Now Poti in the U.S.S.R.
    35
    The Black Sea.
    Page 14
    21. They had also built a massive rampart in front of the walls in order to withstand
    the first shock of an enemy attack and to serve as a buttress. They were understandably
    anxious about the walls in view of the fact that they were built of wood and particularly
    because they had crumbled and caved in with age in many places. 2 Accordingly a moat
    had been dug and filled up to the top with water, so that the stakes which had been driven
    in great profusion were completely hidden. The latter part of this operation had been
    effected without difficulty by diverting the seaward outflow of the lagoon which flows
    into the Euxine and is known locally as the "little sea". 3 Large merchantships rode at
    anchor next to the sea-shore and the mouth of the river Phasis very close to the town with
    their boats securely suspended about the mastheads and raised aloft at such a height that
    they overtopped and even dwarfed the towers and battlements of the fortifications. 4 Up
    in the boats soldiers and the more daring and warlike of the sailors were stationed. They
    were armed with bows and arrows and slings and had set up catapults loaded and ready
    for action. 5 Other ships too had been fitted out in almost exactly the same fashion and
    then conveyed up the river to the opposite side of the fortifications where Valerian was in
    command. Their presence at this point meant that any attempt on the part of the enemy to
    conduct a siege at close quarters would be repulsed, since they would be shot at from a
    very great height on either side. 6 To ensure that these ships on the river should come to
    no harm two commanders, Dabragezas the Ant and Elminegeir the Hun, acting on the
    instructions of the generals, manned with troops from their own contingents ten skiffs of
    a special kind equipped with for-and-aft rudders, and traveled up the river as far as
    possible. They kept a non-stop watch on the various crossing-points, sometimes sailing
    in the middle of the river and sometimes veering towards one or the other of its banks. 7
    In the course of this operation they experienced one of war's most pleasant surprises.
    Even further up the river than they were, the two thirty-oared Roman vessels, whose
    capture without their crews by the Persians I have already related, now lay in wait
    moored to the bank of the river and manned by Persians. 8 At nightfall their crews all
    fell asleep. The current was particularly strong and the cables were stretched by the
    tilting of the boats, with the result that the mooring on one of them suddenly snapped.
    Cut adrift and virtually without oars to propel it or a rudder to steer it, it was caught up in
    the current, swept away and eventually 9 consigned to Dabragezas and his men, who
    rejoicing at their good fortune gleefully seized their prey. The ship which they had
    abandoned empty had returned to them full.
    22. Meanwhile Nachoragan left camp and advanced on the town with his entire army.
    He intended to confine himself to light skirmishing and the discharging of missiles from a
    distance in an attempt to test the Romans' mettle and to see whether they would come out
    into the open and fight. In this way he hoped to form a clear idea of what tactics to adopt
    in the next day's battle. 2 As soon as the Persians got within shooting distance,
    therefore, they immediately began, according to their usual practice to discharge volley
    upon volley of arrows. Many Romans were wounded, and though some of them
    continued to defend the walls, others withdrew altogether from the fighting. 3 In
    complete disregard of Martin's instructions to the whole army that they were to stay each
    at his respective post and to fight from a position of safety, Angilas and Philomathius and
    about two hundred of their troops opened the gate in their section of the wall and made a
    sortie against the enemy. 4 Theodorus the commander of the Tzanian contingent tried at
    first to restrain them, upbraiding them for their rashness. But when they would not listen
    Page 15
    to him he fell in reluctantly with the majority decision and set off at once with them to
    avoid being suspected of cowardice and of seeking to cover up his ignoble ends by an
    impressive show of prudence and good sense. So, though he had no liking for the
    enterprise, he resolved to see it through to the bitter end. 5 And in fact they would
    almost certainly have been annihilated on the spot but for a heaven-sent miscalculation
    which saved them. The Dilimnites who were ranged in battle-formation at that point,
    perceiving the small number of the attackers stayed their ground and calmly awaited their
    approach. 6 When they were already near at hand the Dilimnites brought round their
    wings and encircled them. Hemmed in on all sides, the Romans had no further idea of
    harming the enemy. Indeed the mere possibility of escape seemed almost too much to
    hope for. 7 Forming themselves therefore into a compact body they faced about and
    suddenly charged with their spears leveled at those of the enemy that were positioned
    near the town.
    When the Dilimnites saw them charging with the fury of despair they immediately
    opened up their tanks and made way for them, since they were unable to confront men
    who cared neither for their own lives nor for the consequences of their actions. 8 In this
    way the Romans were allowed to rush to safety unopposed. Only too glad to get back
    inside the fortifications, they slammed the gate behind them. The net achievement from
    such a hazardous exploit was nil - they had risked their lives to save their skins!
    23. Meanwhile an army of porters on the Persian side had long been toiling to fill in
    the moat. Their work was now complete. All gaps had been stopped and all holes had
    been plugged. In fact they had done such a thorough job that even a besieging army
    could walk over the spot and siege-engines could be brought up with little difficulty. 2
    But a disproportionate amount of time had been spent on the operation considering the
    vast resources of manpower at their disposal. Though they threw in an enormous
    quantity of stones and earth it did not suffice to block up the moat, and wood was scarce
    except for what they cut from the forests, travelling far to get it and transporting it with
    incredible toil. 3 The Romans had in fact already set fire to all the surrounding
    countryside, burning down even the wayside inns and any other buildings in the
    immediate vicinity. Their purpose in doing this had been to ensure that the enemy did
    not have a ready supply of building material from any of these quarters. 4 No other
    event worth recording occurred on that day, and at nightfall Nachoragan returned to camp
    with his troops.
    Thus, Agathias would have us think that they were professional and well-drilled. You can read it all here: http://www.humanities.uci.edu/sasani...thiasFinal.pdf


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    Amanuensis Member pezhetairoi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    ...that was looooooooooooong. O.O


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    Elephant Master Member Conqueror's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    An interesting read though. This bit had me shake my head:

    In complete disregard of Martin's instructions to the whole army that they were to stay each at his respective post and to fight from a position of safety, Angilas and Philomathius and about two hundred of their troops opened the gate in their section of the wall and made a sortie against the enemy.
    Talk about a pair of dim bulbs!

    (Sorry for off-topicness)

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    Member Member Thaatu's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    Bakterian... noooo!

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    Member Member Bonny's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    But we know that they never enjoyed such extensive equipement their opponents had. They had no helmet ,Their spears were not long enough(And wasn't of good quality) ,Their armor usually was not sufficient to cover all of the body ,In most cases only carried a wicker shield and at last I suppose at the time of Alexander invasion ,their training (just like their state) was in decline (?!)


    Thureopherontes Toxotai (Bosphoran Heavy Archers)

    although it has short sword instead of a spear as secondary weapon it is the afaik only archer unit ingame which comes close to your suggestion.


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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonny

    Thureopherontes Toxotai (Bosphoran Heavy Archers)

    although it has short sword instead of a spear as secondary weapon it is the afaik only archer unit ingame which comes close to your suggestion.
    Those guys are hardcore.

    If you want to see a hypathetical archer-spearmen, XGM has a Seleucid Immortal.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  8. #8

    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    We had parthian immortals with that kind of equipment but they were replaced as too far fetched...
    Our baktrian archer-spearmen are quite close to the concept though...
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    Member Member kambiz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bonny

    Thureopherontes Toxotai (Bosphoran Heavy Archers)

    although it has short sword instead of a spear as secondary weapon it is the afaik only archer unit ingame which comes close to your suggestion.
    They very poweful units. I used them twice in custom battles ,and impressed by their performance. They are very effective units. Actually these units gave me the idea of armoured immortals

    @TPC
    Thank you so much for infos ,Especially the link to the Orginal text
    But I knew about Dailami warriors and how powerful they were ,As the sassanids used them alot. But still unlike Achaemenid Immortals ,They were just Auxiliary units. Sassanids core units were Savaran heavy cavalry ,light to medium Infantry and Archers.

    Maybe I should ask the question in another way : How about DariusIII used new equipments for Immortals before the Alexander invasion? Do you think this newly reformed Corps would perform any better or still not much difference? (I think I really made a hypothetical situation )

    Thanks

    Forgotten Empire

  10. #10
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    Er... didn't the Immortals already have spears, shields, bows and scale armour...?

    Not all that much you can add to that far as I can tell. But then the point is a little moot anyway since Alex's winning scheme was to ram a cavalry wedge through a weak point in line and beeline to the King, whose immediate bodyguard unit was a somewhat different lot from the Immortals...
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  11. #11

    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    Maybe you could add greaves to them..or did they have those already

    Anyway, the Immortals were a fairly kickass lot. I wouldn't blame them for Alexander's success.

  12. #12
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    One gets the impression "Eastern" infantry, even if otherwise amoured, tended to be shy of leg defenses. Probably a tradeoff issue - greaves and such seem to commonly have been about the first pieces to go when soldiers wanted to improve their mobility without compromising protection where it really counts.

    Could also be the design of the larger Persian infantry shields - tall rectangular as in the spara, or basically oval as in that apparently fairly widely popular bilobate one (you know - the type with those C-shaped cutouts on both long sides) - made greaves a bit of an unnecessary burden and expense, as the lower rim of the device afforded acceptable levels of coverage.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    Aren't they also more useful for the pushing matches the Greeks and Romans tended to get into instead of the archer duels and cavalry ramming that the Easterners used?
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



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    Member Member kambiz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    Quote Originally Posted by Watchman
    Er... didn't the Immortals already have spears, shields, bows and scale armour...?
    Late Immortals seems had good shields. Also their Armor was relatively sufficient. But didn't have long spears and those powerful steppe bows. And I'm sure ,they wore no helmet at all !

    Forgotten Empire

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    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    That helmet thing was some sort of "disdain of death and danger" issue, wasn't it ? Meh, the things warriors come up with to dispel the fear of death...

    I can kinda see why they didn't want a 2.5m doru, though. I mean, where the fig are you going to put that thing when you need to use the bow ? The about two-meter spear the Persians favoured (of Assyrian lineage, I understand) oughta have been a pain enough already...

    The bow was just circumstances though, wasn't it ? The more advanced and powerful designs concoted on the steppes simply hadn't spread that far yet.
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  16. #16

    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    Plant it in the ground...?
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  17. #17
    Ming the Merciless is my idol Senior Member Watchman's Avatar
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    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    To benefit the archery of the ranks behind you ?
    "Let us remember that there are multiple theories of Intelligent Design. I and many others around the world are of the strong belief that the universe was created by a Flying Spaghetti Monster. --- Proof of the existence of the FSM, if needed, can be found in the recent uptick of global warming, earthquakes, hurricanes, and other natural disasters. Apparently His Pastaness is to be worshipped in full pirate regalia. The decline in worldwide pirate population over the past 200 years directly corresponds with the increase in global temperature. Here is a graph to illustrate the point."

    -Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster

  18. #18

    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    Hang on hang on HANG ON!

    Zarax are we really getting baktrian archer-spearmen? If they are more heavily armoured then the persian lot I could have a new best friend in the east!

    Although if this is a wind up
    Last edited by olly; 01-21-2008 at 16:21.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Archer-Spearmen may rise again !?!

    Err, we're talking about different mods olly.
    The unit I was talking about is featured in XGM, not in EB
    The best is yet to come.
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