how do i trigger the exist of armoured general bodyguards?

[guineawolf]

how do i trigger the exist of armoured general bodyguards in version 1.5?

[mrdun]

Is it not the Marian Reforms?

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Yep, the Marian Reforms triggers all factions to have their bodyguards upgraded/modified. The Marian Reforms are triggered by at least one Roman Imperial Palace existing in Italy/Scilly excluding Rome. The definition of Italy includes the provinces which start out under Gallic control in the North.

[Quirinus]

I have a related question: what determines that Egyptian generals will get a horseback bodyguard instead of a chariot bodyguard? Is it the Marian Reforms too? Because if that is so, isn't that something of a downgrade? Considering that the chariot bodyguard has five hitpoints, compared to the two of everyone else's?

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Yep, that's also triggered by the Marius event. I wouldn't quite call it a downgrade though. Despite the larger hit points, I do find chariots to be fairly vulnerable in combat and not especially strong when they enter the fray.

[guineawolf]

then what will trigger the exist of armoured general bodyguard if i wipe out the romans before they reach marius reforms?

coz my thracian general bodyguard won't get their armoured general bodyguard yet.....

[mrdun]

Nothing I don't think

[Quirinus]

Yep, that's also triggered by the Marius event. I wouldn't quite call it a downgrade though. Despite the larger hit points, I do find chariots to be fairly vulnerable in combat and not especially strong when they enter the fray.

Really? 'Cos I've never been able to kill a chariot general without incurring horrific casualties myself. Not to mention, their missile fire is deadly, so that lowly peltasts are useless against it. It is outgunned by the chariot general, as well as not being able to escape should the general decide to charge.

[Charge]

Really? 'Cos I've never been able to kill a chariot general without incurring horrific casualties myself. Not to mention, their missile fire is deadly, so that lowly peltasts are useless against it. It is outgunned by the chariot general, as well as not being able to escape should the general decide to charge.

Heh, you probably playing on easy ..
Chariots has no defence (only 5hp's), they only knocking down infantry and not killing it, missile fire due to low numbers won't inflict serious casualities and general, if he wants to flee, won't be able to do it...

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

then what will trigger the exist of armoured general bodyguard if i wipe out the romans before they reach marius reforms?

Sadly, as mrdun has said, they won't get their upgrade if that is the case - that's one of unfortunate curses of the upgrade of all faction's generals relying on the marian reforms.

[Fate]

Sadly, as mrdun has said, they won't get their upgrade if that is the case - that's one of unfortunate curses of the upgrade of all faction's generals relying on the marian reforms.

Could always mod it in?

Would that work, or would you have to restart?

[Quirinus]

Heh, you probably playing on easy ..
Chariots has no defence (only 5hp's), they only knocking down infantry and not killing it, missile fire due to low numbers won't inflict serious casualities and general, if he wants to flee, won't be able to do it...

Wouldn't playing on Easy give bonuses to my own troops, meaning that I should be having less problems with chariots?

[Charge]

Easy: +4 attack, defence skill to your own troops
Medium: 0
Hard: +4 attack, defence skill for enemies
VeryHard: +7 attack, defence skill for enemies.

[Quirinus]

Yeah.... so how would you conclude this:

Heh, you probably playing on easy ..

from,

Really? 'Cos I've never been able to kill a chariot general without incurring horrific casualties myself. Not to mention, their missile fire is deadly, so that lowly peltasts are useless against it. It is outgunned by the chariot general, as well as not being able to escape should the general decide to charge.

..this?

I don't follow your reasoning.

[Charge]

????
You saying your chariots kicks ass to everyone or you suffering against them? In any case chariots - BS which was confirmed lot of times in history.

[Quirinus]

What I said was, I try to kill an enemy's chariot general, I get a lot of my own dead.

[Hannibalbarc]

how do i trigger the exist of armoured general bodyguards in version 1.5?

Modding.

[Maxov]

Easiest way to destroy chariots, is letting them meet any phalanx from the front. Instant kill, even with the lowest quality hoplites. I like chariots a lot though, they die easily, especially in phalanx battles, but the 'Frighten nearby infantry' makes them divine.

[Spartan198]

Modding.

Are you sure? Because I play Rome v. 1.5 and my bodyguards always seem to upgrade once my first city reached Huge level,and this was most-commonly long after I'd dealt the early killing stroke to the Romans and eliminated them before the Mariam Reforms.

[mrdun]

What I said was, I try to kill an enemy's chariot general, I get a lot of my own dead.

Ok then probably what charge said but the other way round, you playing on hard?

[Barbarian]

Chariots can be deadly, if used right. Using them as heavy cavalry means loosing them, but hit enemy's formation in the right spot or while it is reforming, and instant rout guaranteed

Of course, AI doesn't know that. I had several battles against Egypt today, and AI simply charged it's chariots in phalanxes.

Skirmishers could be useless against chariots, but you could just use some different units, light cavalry is the best to catch them.

[Hannibalbarc]

Are you sure? Because I play Rome v. 1.5 and my bodyguards always seem to upgrade once my first city reached Huge level,and this was most-commonly long after I'd dealt the early killing stroke to the Romans and eliminated them before the Mariam Reforms.

You don't have to mod, I'm just saying its the fastest way to get them.

[Spartan198]

Oh,okay. Thanks for clearifying that,Hannibal.

[Quirinus]

Chariots can be deadly, if used right. Using them as heavy cavalry means loosing them, but hit enemy's formation in the right spot or while it is reforming, and instant rout guaranteed

Of course, AI doesn't know that. I had several battles against Egypt today, and AI simply charged it's chariots in phalanxes.

Skirmishers could be useless against chariots, but you could just use some different units, light cavalry is the best to catch them.

Yeah. The 'abilities at a glance' of javelin skirmishers typically include a bonus against chariots, which implies that they are useful anti-chariot units, but I've never been able to use them successfully versus chariots.

In the M/M Julii game I was playing just now, I just brought along a whole bunch of Hastatis and charged the Briton king. The chariot bodyguard didn't exactly die like flies, but they did the job. In regular battles, I just pray like mad that my Hastatis' morale don't break.

One annoying thing about chariot bodyguards is that, you can't chase a routing chariot unit without losing some men, due to the bloody scythes on the wheels. I once lost my general after I won the battle, chasing a Briton coward of a warlord. That was so unfair that I loaded the game and played the battle again.

Chariots need micromanagement, I feel-- they are most effective as skirmishers to sap the morale of the enemy line right before a charge. So if I play as Egypt, I usually wait till I can build chariot archers.

[Punicus]

Yeah. The 'abilities at a glance' of javelin skirmishers typically include a bonus against chariots, which implies that they are useful anti-chariot units, but I've never been able to use them successfully versus chariots.

In my current campaign as Parthia, I've been having a lot of success with Horse Archers when fighting chariots. Hitting-on-the-run tactics works beautifully with them. But you can't really do that with skirmishers considering their speed compared to the speed of chariots and that they can't throw when running.

If I don't have access to Horse Archers, what I usually do is just swarm them with infantry like you do. They end up getting stuck in place. Easy kill.

[mrdun]

If I don't have access to Horse Archers, what I usually do is just swarm them with infantry like you do. They end up getting stuck in place. Easy kill.

Basicaly this is what will happen in auto calc , the game will signal an all out charge. Now ion a battlefield the chariots will die pretty easy but stupid auto-cal say nooo chariots own!

[Punicus]

Basicaly this is what will happen in auto calc , the game will signal an all out charge. Now ion a battlefield the chariots will die pretty easy but stupid auto-cal say nooo chariots own!

Exactly...that's why I never do autocalc against even if I have 20 units against 1 unit of chariots. In fact, one autocalc battle went against me in almost that exact scenario.

Skirmishers could be useless against chariots, but you could just use some different units, light cavalry is the best to catch them.

I've never had good experiences when using cavalry of any kind against them - not saying you're wrong or anything. Do you use the swarm and trap method with the cavalry?

The good thing about attacking Egypt is, at least in my experience, when they're on the defense they won't come and attack you with their chariots. I use that to my advantage with ranged troops. That's why I usually choose to attack them rather than wait for them to attack.

[Barbarian]

You could try using cavalry against them. Thats actually how I win the historical battle of Raphia. Chariots look impressive, while smashing infantry, but once they meat a real cavalry, they loose fast.
However, light cavalry would do well only against chariot archers, because their speed would allow to engage them sooner and suffering less loses from the missiles. Against scythed and heavy chariots the heavy cavalry would be better still.

[Punicus]

Actually, both our tactics are probably more than fine as both have been working. I think the real answer is not the unit type itself, but one of the important traits the unit possesses.

I think the biggest thing about it is the morale of the unit facing the chariots. The type of the unit doesn't matter - if the chariots can't get you to rout soon after their attack, they're useless because they will get stuck (assuming that you're attacking with more than one unit, which most people would, I'm sure), and will die. That's why the AI is so bad at using chariots.

That's just my opinion from my own experiences. But above all, I still prefer the missile tactic to take them out.

[Quirinus]

I've never had good experiences when using cavalry of any kind against them - not saying you're wrong or anything. Do you use the swarm and trap method with the cavalry?

But couldn't infantry (by virtue of their higher numbers and generally better stats) do swarm-and-trap better? I find that my cavalry suffers disproportionate casualties when engaging chariots, due to their small number and the fact that charges don't seem to work very well against them.