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Thread: Hoplitai fighting tactics

  1. #1
    Bassist, Swordsman, Gentleman Member Klearchos's Avatar
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    Default Hoplitai fighting tactics

    Hail

    I'm not sure, but think that the fashion the hoplitai used to fight was something like a " pushing match".That means(especialy when they were facing other hoplites) they used to charge the enemy and crush on them shield against shield. The soldiers in the last line pushed their shields against the next line's soldiers' backs and ,eventually, the soldiers on the front line pushed their shield against the enemy while stabing them with their spears.

    I noticed that the spearmen in M2TW use an "shield bash" animation. Can this be used to make the way the hoplitai fight more realistic?

    (I'm not sure that the way of battle that I describe fits with EB's time frame. If not please enlighten me)
    "They told him to throw down his sword and return to the earth. Hah! Time enough for the earth in the grave."

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    Member Member mAIOR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    Hoplites fought the same way for their entire existance. Crowd mechanics represents this very well. They would push their opponents and when those pushes were coordinated, it would send a massive shock wave trough their enemies making them fall back in disarray. Music helped to achieve this coordination. A panicked crowd shockwave is known to send people flying and wrecking cars. This explains why numbers were not decisive in hplite warfare because even with fewer numbers, if you achieved greater coordination you'd be able to generate more bruite force than your opponent.


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    Bassist, Swordsman, Gentleman Member Klearchos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    We ,pretty much, say the same thing...the hoplites in EB do not fight in that fashion though..
    "They told him to throw down his sword and return to the earth. Hah! Time enough for the earth in the grave."

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    Member Member mAIOR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    Sorry I'm doing a lab report while I'm here so I missed your question and only answerd to the fianl part (hoplites retained their stile of warfare).
    I don't think a phalanx could be represented by a mere shield bash... It should be more like a general push like every hoplite giving one step forward while pushing with their shields (like when you try to open a door with rusty hinges...).


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  5. #5
    Bassist, Swordsman, Gentleman Member Klearchos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    So there isn't any way to fix that? 'Cause, no offense but, the way the hoplitai (and the pezhetairoi phalanx) fights doesn't seem to be very realistic..
    "They told him to throw down his sword and return to the earth. Hah! Time enough for the earth in the grave."

  6. #6

    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    It's not an EB problem, I imagine, but a problem with the engine.

    It's more realistic than AoE or Warcraft, at least. Your lucky to have a moral and fatigue mechanism.

  7. #7
    Master of Puppets Member hellenes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    Hoplite phalanx is best portrayed by teh shieldwall ability espessially with the EB1 animation of overhand Ive seen it in the BI exe...its amazing...
    Impunity is an open wound in the human soul.


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  8. #8

    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    Yeah, but doesn't shieldwall affect the speed. I think units in shieldwall move slower than usual (haven't played BI in ages) and classical phalanxes would start running the last few meters in order to gain momentum.

  9. #9
    Master of Puppets Member hellenes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Vorian
    Yeah, but doesn't shieldwall affect the speed. I think units in shieldwall move slower than usual (haven't played BI in ages) and classical phalanxes would start running the last few meters in order to gain momentum.
    They run just fine...and charge...
    Impunity is an open wound in the human soul.


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    The best choose one thing in exchange for all, everflowing fame among mortals; but the majority are satisfied with just feasting like beasts.

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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    Guard mode keeps them in a nice brick. Though they don't push, infact, they lose push and get pushed back.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



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    Master of Puppets Member hellenes's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by antisocialmunky
    Guard mode keeps them in a nice brick. Though they don't push, infact, they lose push and get pushed back.
    If you double click for them to attack they push and really hard...
    Impunity is an open wound in the human soul.


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    The best choose one thing in exchange for all, everflowing fame among mortals; but the majority are satisfied with just feasting like beasts.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    Different Hoplitai units used different formations. Some favored the offensive push of shield against shield in solid masses of soldiers. Others preferred the defensive spear wall to keep opponents at bay in a less compacted formation.

    Can't remember if I read that in Xenophon or Thucydides. One or the other.

  13. #13
    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by hellenes
    If you double click for them to attack they push and really hard...
    Then you risk losing the shape of your battle line and you lose the fatigue advantage you gain by just letting the unit grind the enemy into dust.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



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  14. #14
    Bassist, Swordsman, Gentleman Member Klearchos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    Two more things about the hoplitai:

    I)They also used a short sword when fighting man-to-man (with the exception of the spartiatai, who used rather a long dagger than a short sword)

    II)They bared different signs on their shield (especially the mercenary hoplitai 'cause they come from various places). The execption are again Spartiatai, who they were given their equipment by the state and the Thebaioi, who bared the "Club of Herakles" on their shields.

    Can the above be done in EB II?
    "They told him to throw down his sword and return to the earth. Hah! Time enough for the earth in the grave."

  15. #15
    The Galatian, AtB Member Member Admetos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    1. This can be done in RTW, but the when they get knocked down they change to their swords, so they stop fighting like a hoplite phalanx.

    2. Yes.


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  16. #16

    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    Sorry, but it is a myth that hoplites had 'shoving-matches'. Think about how practical this would be - they'd be crushed to death!

    Hans van Wees of Imperial College London has written an excellent study of Classical Greek fighting styles - Greek Warfare: Myths and Realities. He demonstrates quite extensively from all available historical sources that the 'shoving-match' notion was more figurative - i.e. it represented the two-ing and fro-ing of whole armies, not individual soldiers. Certainly hoplites fought in tight formations (though not as tight as you might think; most hoplites were not well trained in group tactics, with some exceptions such as the Spartans and the Theban Sacred Band), but they did actually fight each other, not just shove en masse.

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    Villiage Idiot Member antisocialmunky's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    You can decide whether or not you want an man-brick or have individual combat by toggling guard mode.
    Fighting isn't about winning, it's about depriving your enemy of all options except to lose.



    "Hi, Billy Mays Here!" 1958-2009

  18. #18
    Bassist, Swordsman, Gentleman Member Klearchos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith Darksea
    Sorry, but it is a myth that hoplites had 'shoving-matches'. Think about how practical this would be - they'd be crushed to death!

    Hans van Wees of Imperial College London has written an excellent study of Classical Greek fighting styles - Greek Warfare: Myths and Realities. He demonstrates quite extensively from all available historical sources that the 'shoving-match' notion was more figurative - i.e. it represented the two-ing and fro-ing of whole armies, not individual soldiers. Certainly hoplites fought in tight formations (though not as tight as you might think; most hoplites were not well trained in group tactics, with some exceptions such as the Spartans and the Theban Sacred Band), but they did actually fight each other, not just shove en masse.
    You might be right, but nobody said they didn't "fight" each other. They used their spears while pushing. I also think that the formation was REALLY tight, because it is known that the shield of each soldier covered the left half of his body AND the right half of the body of the soldier right next to him. That can be proved by the fact that they put the best warrior on the far right of the line (where no soldier would provide him cover and the right half of his body would be exposed). In Sparte a soldier was allowed to drop any piece of his equipment EXCEPT his shield, cause by doing that he would put the life of the soldier on his right in danger. If he dropped the shiled he faced severe penalties(even death).
    "They told him to throw down his sword and return to the earth. Hah! Time enough for the earth in the grave."

  19. #19

    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    They used their spears while pushing. I also think that the formation was REALLY tight, because it is known that the shield of each soldier covered the left half of his body AND the right half of the body of the soldier right next to him.
    It's not actually so clear, in fact. You should try adopting a hoplite fighting stance and see what it implies, considering the width of a hoplite's shield. You would be standing sideways-on and your right-hand side would actually be fully protected by your own shield - since after all it would pretty much be directly behind your left-hand side. I don't think the fact that the best soldier was - allegedly - placed on the right flank of the line actually says anything about the use of the hoplite shield. But at any rate, van Wees covers this in his book (I don't have it on me right now, unfortunately).

    Consider though the fact that most Greek city states (except Sparta) did not actually have group formation drills, from what we can tell. That does not lead to such a close order phalanx, generally! Modern scholarship has moved on now from the view that the hoplite phalanx was some sort of close order 'battering ram', especially when you consider that the Spartans are recorded to have successfully held a defensive hoplite line against revolting helots that was only two ranks deep. And there's the fact that 'shoving' tactics would lead to the death by crushing of most of the front ranks.

  20. #20
    Bassist, Swordsman, Gentleman Member Klearchos's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by Zenith Darksea
    It's not actually so clear, in fact. You should try adopting a hoplite fighting stance and see what it implies, considering the width of a hoplite's shield. You would be standing sideways-on and your right-hand side would actually be fully protected by your own shield - since after all it would pretty much be directly behind your left-hand side. I don't think the fact that the best soldier was - allegedly - placed on the right flank of the line actually says anything about the use of the hoplite shield..
    Actually the diameter of the hoplite shield was (aprox.) 1m. Having in mind that the average hight of the greeks at that time (1,65-1,70 m.), I think it is more than enough to cover both your right side and your fellow-warrior's left side. And I'm not sure they fought standing sideways-on...but I will look for that book. It must be interesting
    "They told him to throw down his sword and return to the earth. Hah! Time enough for the earth in the grave."

  21. #21
    Member Member The Wicked's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    Quote Originally Posted by hellenes
    Hoplite phalanx is best portrayed by teh shieldwall ability espessially with the EB1 animation of overhand Ive seen it in the BI exe...its amazing...
    I agree with hellenes. the hoplites there are actually pushing their opponets and break their lines

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  22. #22

    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    You don't get crushed to death in a shoving match, even without body armour.

    I speak from personal experience, from my days in the pike block of the Sealed Knot reenactment society. You do sometimes get lifted off the ground though, so that your toes barely touch the ground.

  23. #23
    Member Member Puupertti Ruma's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hoplitai fighting tactics

    Also, the Spartans had a exercise in agoge that consisted of a line of boys pushing each other with their shields, and the first in line was pushing a tree. Exercise ended when the tree fell down and it often lasted for days. Sounds like a exercise for the pushing match.
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