Civil war

[Ironsword]

Upon returning home, weary and defeated, the least those brave men deserved was a bed. Instead they found the Grand Vizier at the castle gates. "Sieze them!" He bellowed. The bewildered men slowly raised their weapons one last time...


I have progressed to hard settings recently and came across civil wars and the like. While it was a fresh experience it was a bit galling too. (I've MTW VI vanilla)

I was playing as the Byz and had a solid Empire (Poland through the Crimea to Turkey and Antioch) I had the most men and was the most advanced. The King's reputation had fallen due to the Khan wars I was having with the golden horde. I'd held off a massive 3,500 army at a pitched bridge crossing and then another 2000 strong army which left my main stacks depleted, I had a smaller scale battle at Odessa, which I lost, and another minor defeat in Antioch. To my utter despair this seemed enough to spur some of my generals to desert and rebel. It destroyed the empire completely. I sided with the rebels and chose to retain my northern Empire as my own. It was fun, and I want to crush all the turncoats, although it is 1326 so may not get the chance... I kind of like an old fading Empire breaking up though!

Any other experiences to share on the topic?? Ways to avoid or turn to advantage?

[I of the Storm]

Avoid: try not to lose too many battles in a row.

I don't think there are really advantages to this, apart from the fact that you get to fight lots of fun battles, lots of challenging battles and probably lots of tedious battles too.

I'm not such a big fan of civil wars in my own empire. Going through them once or twice is nice and a fun experience, but that's about it. I do however like them happening to other people...

[Innocentius]

Recently, I had a nice experience of civil war as the Armenians in Early. I finally managed to take Antioch (after being on the defensive against the Eggies for two decades) and started building it up (I know going south isn't too smart playing as the Armenians, as you end up between both the Eggies and the Seljuks). Anyway, after a few years, the expected counterattack came. I won, but at a high cost. Next year, the Seljuks decided to invade the lightly defended Armenia (I could only afford one army). I retreated to the castle with my king.

Then a civil war breaks out, leaving my king alone in his castle and all three princes (that's 75% of the royal house of Armenia) with a depleted army in an underdeveloped province. I decided to stick with the loyalists, since I realised all was lost anyway, and just a year after that, the Seljuks stormed my castle and the Eggies wiped out the remaining rebels in Antioch.

[Jxrc]

Happened to me a few times but nothing huge (usually it was due to the absence of an heir and the "royal general" fighting for the throne).

Worst thing that happened to me was in a Sicilian campaign. Was about 1260 and I had all of Italy, Spain, North Africa and large part of France. Decided to build crusades in Normandy and created several markers. Chapter house was destroyed by and earthquake (lucky me ...) and one marker was destroyed. Enough prestige to avoid rebellion. Next turn, second marker disappear (Why on earth do they no all disappear in one turn ? Perhaps because you can only have one crusade going, and thus failing, at the time ?). Result: civil war. Side with the rebels who retained Normandy so that the following turn another marker was lost !!! Hurray !!! Second civil war in a row. Ended up with a one star king proud owner of Malta, Sicily (with tow units of peasants and a bloody huge stack of rebels in Naples), Provence, Corsica and Genoa ... I have stopped the game after a few more turns ... which was so silly of me since I lost the pre-chapter house destruction auto-save...

[Martok]

Happened to me a few times but nothing huge (usually it was due to the absence of an heir and the "royal general" fighting for the throne).

Worst thing that happened to me was in a Sicilian campaign. Was about 1260 and I had all of Italy, Spain, North Africa and large part of France. Decided to build crusades in Normandy and created several markers. Chapter house was destroyed by and earthquake (lucky me ...) and one marker was destroyed. Enough prestige to avoid rebellion. Next turn, second marker disappear (Why on earth do they no all disappear in one turn ? Perhaps because you can only have one crusade going, and thus failing, at the time ?). Result: civil war. Side with the rebels who retained Normandy so that the following turn another marker was lost !!! Hurray !!! Second civil war in a row. Ended up with a one star king proud owner of Malta, Sicily (with tow units of peasants and a bloody huge stack of rebels in Naples), Provence, Corsica and Genoa ... I have stopped the game after a few more turns ... which was so silly of me since I lost the pre-chapter house destruction auto-save...

....And that's precisely why I usually only build Crusade/Jihad markers as I need them. Too risky otherwise.

Civil wars can be a great way to shake up a game, particularly if your faction has reached the point of "critical mass" (where you're so big and powerful that you know it's only a matter of time before you win the game). They can also be an effective way to get rid of a weak faction leader, or even the whole royal family (if they all stink).

Of course, civil wars also tend to be more fun if you deliberately instigate them, as opposed to having them occur due to unfortunate (and/or unplanned) circumstances. I've purposely started civil wars as the Danes, the Norwegians (in XL), the French, the Eggies, and the Byzantines, usually with pretty good results. Sure, I lose half my territory at first and had to fight to gain it all back -- which isn't always possible, as other factions often will nab some of your provinces that have now become "rebel" -- but I still find it's usually worth it in the end. There's nothing like a few years of constant campaigning against your erstwhile brothers to bring vigor to your (new or existing) royal family.

[Martok]

By the way, welcome to the Org, Ironsword! Make yourself at home.

[Jxrc]

....And that's precisely why I usually only build Crusade/Jihad markers as I need them. Too risky otherwise.

And that is now that you tell me !!!!

Makes now a lot of sense to me now but that really something I had not seen coming ....

The "chapter house being smashed by an earthquake" bit happened to me once a few months ago after many years of playing (was never silly enough to build crusades in a provinces adjacent to another faction or that could be invaded by sea)and building several crusades was something I did quite often (near 1205, wants to get all the crusades GA points, build five crusade and loads of troops, send first crusade, assault castle the next turn and repeat - I am sure you get the drill) .... Probably been a little lucky until then but once you have 20 provinces you need some bad luck to have you chapter house destroyed by an earthquake during the sensitive period (about 25 years including build-up) since you need to have an earthquake that targets the "wrong" province and manages to destroy the "wrong" building ... Even if the odds are favourable, I agree 100% that it sucks big time in the worst case scenario (and in MTW waste matter from the bowels does happen )

. Civil wars can be a great way to shake up a game, particularly if your faction has reached the point of "critical mass" (where you're so big and powerful that you know it's only a matter of time before you win the game). They can also be an effective way to get rid of a weak faction leader, or even the whole royal family (if they all stink).

If I can understand the first point (basically artificially recreating a challenge), I never saw an opportunity to apply the second. Either you have already reached the "critical mass" and it does not matter if your king is a complete failure since you probably have then enough good generals to do the fighting (so that a civil war can be just started for the challenege of it but is not required) or you have not in which case I cannot see how you could afford a civil war (unless you want your game to be extremely hardcore stuff, something like start with a faction, build crusade ASAP, destroy it and "start" the game with just a few provinces).

Only time I started a civil war on purpose was when I had a 55 year old king with no heir at all and one single royal general that was about to die sooner or later ... Send the king to conquer Ireland and it made the trick (in my first few games sending the king to attack Ireland had caused me a few surprise before I could figure out the problem ....)