Hoots Mon - any ideas????

[King Kurt]

I have just started a hard Early Scots (XL) campaign. It is early 1100's and I have conquered all of the British Isles, including Ireland. The question is - where next? My inclination is to turtle a bit, build up trade and economy then start invading people. My historic inclinations is to chase the English - who are now allied by marriage - quite an achievment after throughing them out of their homelands!! - and to remain allied with the French.
So - where to? - Scandanavia, Denmark, Germany, Spain
The campaign itself has been a blast - including getting 180 longbows only to loose most of them a few years later - I will post on the XL guides when the campaign is a bit more developed - and, yes Martok, I am tempted to return to Pics and History to add my narrative efforts.

[macsen rufus]

My personal inclination would be to head for Scandinavia next - iron and good trade in Sweden, v1 Vikings in Norway (if you can train them?), and you can do it province by province and keep a single new land border. Also the North Sea makes for quite a nice private yatching lake once you achieve full naval superiority. You'd need more outlay to head for Spain, I think, you'd face a heavier enemy on land and they also have quite a naval capacity, so that must be a consideration, too. Then you can move south into Germany, or across the baltic for your next expansion phase

Anyway, let us know what you decide

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Launch a crusade to the Holy Land and fulfil Robert de Bruce's wish.
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[seireikhaan]

Definitely Scandinavia. Knock those Danes out as quickly as possible. Maybe its just me, but it always seems that the Danes end up getting obsenely powerful nearly every time in XL if given enough time, mainly because they can just spam vikings and longboats and put a wipping on the HRE, Poland, the Baltics, etc... without needing much technology. Although this tendency of theirs to run out of control seems to be tempered a bit by removing the longboat valor bonus from Denmark, as their fleet seems to be a bit more managageable to deal with. I've had more than one game where Denmark ends up ruling Iberia, Northern Germany, Egypt, Sicily, the entire Baltic coast, and parts of the middle east to boot. As a matter of fact, the last time I played as the Scots, I tried to turle with just the isles, and ended up seeing a true fright fest. The Danes were at war with me, Spain, the Byzantines, HRE, France, Poland, and Kiev. And until the Byzantines entered the war, the other six of us were just managing to contain them.

[Kaidonni]

You can't train Vikings as Scotland in XL. Only the other viking units (although you might have a nasty shock come 1205, as they are unavailable to train or re-train after Early).

I'd second going for Scandinavia. Norway, Sweden, Scania, Denmark and Saxony. Saxony especially, as the Salt tradeable good is extremely lucrative. It's a right good, that one...around 70 florins per port - and no other province that can build a port has that tradeable good. So, ching ching ching! :)

[Heidrek]

Ha, I've done more or less exactly the same thing. Scotts campaign, starting in High though on Expert.

Cleared out Britain, grabbed Ireland then built a navy and started to work on trade. Passed a while building an ever growing army and more ships until I had a navy reaching to italy. It was then that I noticed that France was running rampant and conquered almost all of western and central Europe!

They owned everything from the spanish border to Lithuania and showed no sign of slowing down despite being at war with 4 nations. I finally bit the bullet and joined the fight against them when they started taking spanish territory. The Castile-Leonese couldn't hold them back and were losing ground so I dropped a big army into Aragon and claimed it as my own.

Over the next few years I invaded all of the french/english coastline and have now conquered from Brittany to Saxony but I'm running out of steam. Constant fighting has depleted my armies and I'm faced with a shrinking treasury while waiting for the French armies to arrive to try and retake their lands. I'll struggle to hold them now unless I can produce big numbers of troops quickly. I'm considering sacing them all for cashand withdrawing my forces to somewhere they can regroup before attacking again.

I've bled the French, but I'm not sure I've hurt them enough to really stop them. I'm finding the Scottish quite restricted in terms of troops. No Halbardiers, Feudal or Chivalric Knights, nor Mounted sergeants. No mounted archers at all, no Chiv. Men at Arms.....my best all round troops, Highland Warriors are only available in Scottland, as are the cheap and nasty Highland Clansmen.

This leaves me with FMAA's, Welsh Longbows, Scottish Spearmen (which are good), Gallowglasses and xbows/Arbs as my staple forces, with Scottish Cavalry/Lancers as my cav.

Tough to go up against Chiv. Knights, MAA's and Chiv. Foot Knights and the like

I'm hoping my allies will use my take advatage of my attacks to regroup and take back some of the territory they've lost. I keep getting messages that France have the largest military and biggest income despite my efforts - not a good combination!!!

[Martok]

Well I hate to sound like a broken record, but my first recommendation would be to go for Scandanavia as well. Good lands, excellent trading opportunities, iron in Sweden....you can't really go wrong there! Also, gaining naval superiority in the North Sea, Baltic Sea, & Skaagerak can allow one to establish a nice little trading empire in the north.

My other recommendation (should you opt to not invade Scandanavia right away) would be to look south across the Channel. It's only a matter of time before the French & English go to war, and the lands in France are some fine prizes indeed! A wily Scottish ruler would do well to be in a position where he could exploit such an opportunity. In addition, were you to conquer all the way to the Pyrenees -- which I realize may not be your initial aim, but it's a possibility to bear in mind -- you would then also be in a position to check any northward agression by whichever faction ends up controlling Iberia (usually the Almos or Castille-Leonese).

and, yes Martok, I am tempted to return to Pics and History to add my narrative efforts.

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Launch a crusade to the Holy Land and fulfil Robert de Bruce's wish.
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Sadly, the Scots cannot crusade, even in XL (unless VikingHorde has since changed that in the 3.0 version).

[Mouzafphaerre]

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Poor Scots.

But IIRC that's really easy to mod in.
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[King Kurt]

I see that many people suggested Scandanavia - good choice, sound reasons - which is why I decided to invade Normandy!! - I must admit I got a spare hour last night and dived in to see what happened.
My first go threw up a real oddity - I actualy attacked Flanders to lift the English seige of my French allies. This duely happened - I think the english retreated - I got a message saying the seige was lifted and the French sent their thanks - then I got a ransom demand from the French for my troops in Flanders!! - has this ever happened to anybody before? - I have often had help from allies when I have been beseiged and I never got a ransom!! As this would have meant the end of my campaign - there was 2 princes in army so I would have been bankrupt for years - so I restarted from a couple of years before. This time I invaded Normandy - only English there! Then I moved on to Britany then Aquitane. Things were tight as the Pope issued a hands off the English announcement but before the the excom came into effect I took Aquitane - King and all - while the French took Anjou - so end of the English and no excomm. As part of the campaign I had also worked an assassin up to 4 stars who took out the English King during my invasion of Aquitane. I tried to kill the successor who was in the castle in Aquitane at the same time as I assaulted but he got caught. I was bit over zealous here - it cost me a good assassin - but I liked the idea of killing 2 Kings in 2 Years!! and I was on a 50% chance of success. It was also a backup plan in case the English hung on somewhere as I felt sure that 2 dead Kings in 2 years would tip them into civil war or leave them with no hiers.
So next move - quick turtle then Norway here I come. I will keep you posted.

[King Kurt]

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Poor Scots.


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My thoughts exactly - but in some ways the challenge of expanding the Scotish empire without Crusades is what makes it interesting.

[macsen rufus]

I got a message saying the seige was lifted and the French sent their thanks - then I got a ransom demand from the French for my troops in Flanders!! - has this ever happened to anybody before?

Yes, it always happens if you can't retreat from the province. That's why I never cross the sea to help an ally, unless I hold a province with a land border to the one where the siege is. Usually your invasion destroys the port if there is one, so you can't ship out again.

[King Kurt]

Yes, it always happens if you can't retreat from the province. That's why I never cross the sea to help an ally, unless I hold a province with a land border to the one where the siege is. Usually your invasion destroys the port if there is one, so you can't ship out again.

Well - I never knew that!! As there was no battle, I assume that there was not a port in the first place - I must look the next time I fire up the campaign up. Seems a bit flaw really - it was annoying to be asked for over 9,000 florins after I had driven the English away!! I must admit I had gone to Flanders as I thought I might get the province if my force was bigger than the French - realised afterwards that would never happen as it was their's in the first place.

[macsen rufus]

It is a bit sucky, I agree, but once you expect it, you can at least avoid it I do tend to "lift the siege" the year after the stronghold has fallen: "Sorry guys, tried to help, you know what the roads are like these days, bit late, but anyway, I'll look after this bit of land that used to be yours..."

[r johnson]

I keep thinking more and more I should go back to xl, I miss the many factions. Is BKB any good?

[Roark]

Scandinavia???

Have you guys all lost the plot?

Flanders can fund an entire army with its income.

[Heidrek]

From humble begings the Scotts begin to dominate!

My own Scottish campaign has started to stabilise. I've held my ground against the French legions and fought off an attempt to lift my siege of Toulouse. 1800 French troops came to relieve the siege against my 1100 besiegers. I pulled off a crushing win, causing 7:1 losses to the French. 200 Scotts and 1400 French troops died that day including their general. Though I needed cash, I couldn't afford to let over 600 captured troops tke the field against me again so I executed all prisoners.

The side effect was that it reset the siege time though so I now have even longer to wait them out. In the mean time though my allies, the Castile-Leonese have rallied and driven the French from Iberia as I hoped they would! they have even struck out from Navarre to take Aquitane. The French have gathered in Anjou. There is a stalemate of sorts happening now as I try to build my forces back up and the french regroup. I have no idea whats happening to the east but hopefully there is more pressure coming from that side.

Meanwhile the French navy has destroyed mine totally. They have an invincible stack of 15 Barques with a 5* commander that destroyed by stack of 9 ships, 6 of which were Caravels led by a 3*. the french lost not a single ship!

[seireikhaan]

Scandinavia???

Have you guys all lost the plot?

Flanders can fund an entire army with its income.

Plot? Perhaps your games seem to go differently, but in my experience, leaving the Danes a chance to colonize the rest of the world with their massive navy is NOT a good idea. Once they're out of the way(along with Norse and Swedes), you can take Flanders later. Plus, Sweden's pretty solid for income in its own right.

[macsen rufus]

Flanders?

Yes, it's rich - but we are talking about XL where there's no landbridge. Expanding from there involves opening up more and more land borders, and neighbouring provinces can constantly pump ships into the English Channel, hence it's a lot more likely to become isolated. Being able to fund one army is not enough if you then need an extra army each for the next three provinces you need to take to seal its borders

[ArtistofWarfare]

Plot? Perhaps your games seem to go differently, but in my experience, leaving the Danes a chance to colonize the rest of the world with their massive navy is NOT a good idea. Once they're out of the way(along with Norse and Swedes), you can take Flanders later. Plus, Sweden's pretty solid for income in its own right.

Well, in my mind I agree with you...but it's this agreement that ironically leads to a difference in opinion as to how the situation should be handled.

You don't want anyone colonizing the most lucrative provinces on the map...obviously.

This fact however, does not lead me to attacking the northern waters/provinces as they're the source of colonial competition abroad. I'd rather spend my money/resources on campaigning for the very colonies themselves, rather than engaging in a full scale Scandinavian war to "prevent" those northern nations from becoming colonial entities.

If I were the OP, I would turtle in the sense that I would hunker down and protect my homelands, while building an appropriate navy/army to begin sending abroad to colonize.

I'd just much rather send a massive army/navy down to the med sea/iberian peninsula/northern africa/holy lands etc...and begin establishing a colonial empire...than perhaps spending 50 years in a major war for the Scandinavian/Viking lands.

Just my opinion of course...

[Roark]

Plot? Perhaps your games seem to go differently, but in my experience, leaving the Danes a chance to colonize the rest of the world with their massive navy is NOT a good idea. Once they're out of the way(along with Norse and Swedes), you can take Flanders later. Plus, Sweden's pretty solid for income in its own right.

Yeah, fair enough. Horses for course, eh.

But...

It takes 2 turns to conquer and own Flanders. That's not even enough time for the Danes to build an extra boat. Meanwhile, you've got the funds to build an extra army.

I reckon my games probably do go differently, because I've never actually seen the Danes build a massive fleet in XL.

[Roark]

Flanders?

Yes, it's rich - but we are talking about XL where there's no landbridge. Expanding from there involves opening up more and more land borders, and neighbouring provinces can constantly pump ships into the English Channel, hence it's a lot more likely to become isolated. Being able to fund one army is not enough if you then need an extra army each for the next three provinces you need to take to seal its borders

I understand your point, but I would assume that anyone whose capital was on the British Isles would have a decent navy in the Channel anyway.

Furthermore, I wasn't necessarily suggesting further expansion into mainland Europe, but just simply taking Flanders as a solo step in itself.

Flanders' income should easily be in excess of 1000 florins.

2 Royal Knights, 3 Halberdiers and 3 pavise arbalests can defend it for a runing cost of 321 florins per year.

Now that I put it in those terms, I can see that in fact TWO additional armies can be funded via Flanders.

It's pretty cost-effective, in my estimation.

[seireikhaan]

Yeah, fair enough. Horses for course, eh.

But...

It takes 2 turns to conquer and own Flanders. That's not even enough time for the Danes to build an extra boat. Meanwhile, you've got the funds to build an extra army.

I reckon my games probably do go differently, because I've never actually seen the Danes build a massive fleet in XL.

Yes, your games must go differently indeed. I almost always end up having to deal with, at the least, a very aggravating Danish nuisance, and sometimes, a behemoth I borderline have to cheat to defeat(inquisitors ). As for their navy, I see Danish ships in Gibraltar nearly every game when left a little time to develop, and its not uncommon to see Danish ships in the Nile coast and the Black sea.

[Roark]

Yowser... that's huge.

In my games, the naval spam tends to come from the English and Genoese, and the Genoese inevitably end up picking a fight with my boats just for the hell of it, even if we are allied!

[Martok]

Yes, your games must go differently indeed. I almost always end up having to deal with, at the least, a very aggravating Danish nuisance, and sometimes, a behemoth I borderline have to cheat to defeat(inquisitors ). As for their navy, I see Danish ships in Gibraltar nearly every game when left a little time to develop, and its not uncommon to see Danish ships in the Nile coast and the Black sea.

That was often my experience in the XL Mod as well. I'm not sure why, but for some reason the Danes tended to be a significant power -- both on land, and at sea. I remember one campaign as the Portuguese in which the Danes (who owned most of Scandanavia & central Europe at the time) had a pretty sizable fleet controlling Gibraltar; I think it was in the neighborhood of 25-30 ships.

[caravel]

The Danes are probably overpowered or their starting position is too good in XL. In vanilla they were underpowered, so this is probably a simple issue of balance.