March For Life

[HoreTore]

Bah. Haven't they realized yet that banning abortion just isn't possible?

And, should you do that, instead of being lumped together with industrialized countries like France, Germany and England, you'll get lumped together with glorious countries like Talibanistan, Nobodycaresistan and Mudhutland...

[rory_20_uk]

I'm reminded of the song "Every Sperm is Sacred"...

I've probably come closer than most to the bundles of tissue that are very early pregnancies (abortions in the sense that the foetus was aborted, not often intentional except in non-viable pregnancies).

Medical abortions they don't even get that far but causes the pregnancy to fail, must like many early pregnancies fail anyway.

If there are people that think a sac of a few hundred or thousand cells is equivalent to a human bieng then I'll have to agree to disagree. I loose that may cells all the time as we all do.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Bah. Haven't they realized yet that banning abortion just isn't possible?

And, should you do that, instead of being lumped together with industrialized countries like France, Germany and England, you'll get lumped together with glorious countries like Talibanistan, Nobodycaresistan and Mudhutland...

So the legalized killing of the unborn is the ACME of culture/civilization? Even if I were to hold the same view as do you and Rory and many others as to the "start point" of life, I'm certain I wouldn't go quite that far.

I recognize that, for those who do not view life as having resulted at conception, the issue of abortion is completely different -- if it is not an independent life, than there is little moral difference between abortion and abdominoplasty. In fact, more of those who take the not-until-long-after-conception view of life would likely oppose the abdominoplasty as vane or a sign of poor self control but would consider the abortion a wise choice.


Note: For those of you who consistently repeat the mantra that "banning abortion isn't possible" or, "even if you make them illegal, abortions will still occur:"

Definitionally, you are correct. Abortion and abortificants pre-dated laws and moral efforts to stop abortion. Were abortion to be prohibited globally, it would still occur.

However, the rate of abortion per 1000 pregnancies is ALWAYS lower -- sometimes much lower -- when such a procedure is illegal. For those of you who view extant life as trumping an undeveloped tissue mass in all cases, you see this as a near-criminal restriction of individual rights. For those of us who take the conception view of life, however, a reduction of even 1 abortion per 1000 pregnancies -- or 1 abortion total globally -- is a success. So, even though banning the procedure will not eradicate it, the reduction in its use is seen as a triumph for life. The "abortions will happen anyway" argument thus fails to persuade any but the already convinced.


For those commenting on "spontaneous" abortion or failed implantation:

Yes, we who view life as having begun at conception recognize this as a death -- even when we are unaware of that death. Many catholics pray daily for the eternal peace of such souls. The Church advanced the concept of Limbo long since -- though it is little talked about today -- with the concept that, in God's time and mercy these souls too might be saved.

Morally however, a spontaneous abortion or failed implantation was NOT the result of a purposive action. No effort was made to end the life in question, and the "parents" were likely unaware that it had begun or concluded. It is an "accident" of life no different than were I to trip at the top of my stairs and break my neck. Though I hope that not too many of you are rooting for that event after this post.

[Ser Clegane]

So the legalized killing of the unborn is the ACME of culture/civilization?

The ACME of culture and civilisation would (should?) IMHO rather be that unwanted preganancies and abortions are an exception because

a) people of both gender properly take care of birth control if they do not want to raise a child

b) even if an unplanned pregnancy happens the child would be born into a society where its presence would not be considered to be detrimental to the well-being of the parents (i.e. negatice effect on economic situation, career, "life-style")

While I am pro-choice (within a certain time-period and/or under certain consitions), I'd rather prefer abortions to be an exception.

[KukriKhan]

I'll go one further, and suggest the ACME of civilization and culture will have been achieved when we KNOW when life begins (and ends, for that matter) in an individual human.

Today, we do not know. We guess. And we make the 'protect life' societal decisions based on that guesswork.

I'm neither a scientist, nor a theologian, just a citizen who has to help my society decide who gets to live and who gets to die, from the moment of conception to 90 days after apparent death. In between those two events, the society I live in today generally believes individual humans should be left to their own devices, with occasional help given, or hinderence imposed, by the rest of us, when it seems warranted - whether for the good of the individual, or the good of the group-at-large.

Since we today don't KNOW when life begins, and having seen inter-uterine photos of apparently viable beings at various stages of development, I fall back (temporarily, until we KNOW) to the default position of over-estimating the probable 'life-infusion event', and hold the position that societally-protected life begins moments after 'unprotected' sex.

A man's body is his own to do with what he will, generally. A woman's body is her own to do with what she will, also.

UNTIL a third body exists to take into consideration. Then those two people - who agreed to a union that might produce a third person, forfeit some control of their bodies in the interests of that third person, who's body is his or her own ALSO to do with that he or she will.

My 19.95.

[HoreTore]

So the legalized killing of the unborn is the ACME of culture/civilization? Even if I were to hold the same view as do you and Rory and many others as to the "start point" of life, I'm certain I wouldn't go quite that far.

Whether or not abortion is the "ACME of culture" doesn't matter, the fact will remain that should you ban it, the only countries with a similar law will be Talibanistan, Nobodycaresistan and Mudhutland.

But hey, if you wish to be mentioned in the same breath as Talibanistan and their likes; be my guest. I don't live in the US, so I really couldn't care what you do with your citizens.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

But hey, if you wish to be mentioned in the same breath as Talibanistan and their likes; be my guest. I don't live in the US, so I really couldn't care what you do with your citizens.

Given that a healthy slice of the "liberal" establishment in Europe holds precisely that view at present, what loss would it represent?

Note: I'm using "liberal" in USA parlance, which is not the same way my Euro friends use the term.

[Ironside]

Yes, we who view life as having begun at conception recognize this as a death -- even when we are unaware of that death. Many catholics pray daily for the eternal peace of such souls. The Church advanced the concept of Limbo long since -- though it is little talked about today -- with the concept that, in God's time and mercy these souls too might be saved.

I've never gotten away from the "kill your unborn/recently babtised child, making the ultimate sacrifice" problem though. The child goes to Limbo/Heaven and the parent ends up in hell.

Isn't Limbo out of Catholic teachings nowadays though, and not merely not spoken of?

Morally however, a spontaneous abortion or failed implantation was NOT the result of a purposive action. No effort was made to end the life in question, and the "parents" were likely unaware that it had begun or concluded. It is an "accident" of life no different than were I to trip at the top of my stairs and break my neck. Though I hope that not too many of you are rooting for that event after this post.

As I mentioned to Xiahou, to do nothing because it's an "accident" is the same as the medical personal leaving you to die because it was a natural incident. You usually don't do that to people.

Thanks for your answers

Tuff, as Tincow was into, the main flaw with the article is that it's still too wide of a concept. Those parts of your unborn twin Tincow mentioned or my personal wierdness favorites, twins where one has developed into what in practice is a parasite, would still be considered as human as any child or adult would be, by only using those guidelines.

Viking is accurate on the "1/3 of my generation is missing" of course, it ends up as a "what if" -scenario.

[Xiahou]

Isn't Limbo out of Catholic teachings nowadays though, and not merely not spoken of?

Off-topic, but afaik, it was never a Catholic teaching.

[Tribesman]

Off-topic, but afaik, it was never a Catholic teaching.

Sort of , it is a strange take it or leave it "teaching" , many priests (over here anyway) took it and passed it onto their parishoners as a teaching of the church .
Which was a bit of a bugger for their parishoners who lost a child before baptism .

[seireikhaan]

Hmm, do I dare throw my into the ring...?

Ah, what the heck.

Roe vs Wade? Not so good, imho. Think the court overstepped its bounds a bit, on account that the constitution states that things it doesn't cover should be left to states. Right to privacy? Well, I think its kind of a twisted argument there, on account that they kinda lost some of that when they conceived. Ask any parents with smaller children, and I'm sure they'll say they wish they had more privacy. I know mine did.

As for the moral issue...egh. I'm a bit conflicted. Personally, I think killing is one of the most atrotious things a person can do. On the other hand, allowing a person to just suffer because of a genetic defect feels just wrong too. When I get married, I must admit, if I found out my kid was gonna have some kind of serious birth defect, I'd say there's probably a 98% chance I'd abort the child. But that's years ahead of me, for now.

However, I must admit that I often get very annoyed with pro-life groups, as every one that I've met has only been concerned with abortion. War? Nah, not important enough for our efforts. In recent years, my high school(which is Catholic) has really gotten me riled up. We have a HUGE pro-life group. It is easily the biggest non-athletic club at our school. The club Pres does our schools announcements every day(except a few days when his idealogical mini-me of a younger brother does them), in addition to being the student body president as well. I can never get him, nor the club, to get any sort of interest in acting against the war, despite that, you know, people tend to die in it. Furthermore, our school, who claims to champion human dignity and the value of life, actually has FORBID an anti-war group from being formed at the school, so those folks have to do it on their own at each other's houses(btw, there's only four people who participate in it). So far the only reason I've ever been able to deduce from mostly elusive teachers is that the school doesn't want to appear anti-American. Well, GAH!

[ICantSpellDawg]

Hmm, do I dare throw my into the ring...?

Ah, what the heck.

Roe vs Wade? Not so good, imho. Think the court overstepped its bounds a bit, on account that the constitution states that things it doesn't cover should be left to states. Right to privacy? Well, I think its kind of a twisted argument there, on account that they kinda lost some of that when they conceived. Ask any parents with smaller children, and I'm sure they'll say they wish they had more privacy. I know mine did.

As for the moral issue...egh. I'm a bit conflicted. Personally, I think killing is one of the most atrotious things a person can do. On the other hand, allowing a person to just suffer because of a genetic defect feels just wrong too. When I get married, I must admit, if I found out my kid was gonna have some kind of serious birth defect, I'd say there's probably a 98% chance I'd abort the child. But that's years ahead of me, for now.

However, I must admit that I often get very annoyed with pro-life groups, as every one that I've met has only been concerned with abortion. War? Nah, not important enough for our efforts. In recent years, my high school(which is Catholic) has really gotten me riled up. We have a HUGE pro-life group. It is easily the biggest non-athletic club at our school. The club Pres does our schools announcements every day(except a few days when his idealogical mini-me of a younger brother does them), in addition to being the student body president as well. I can never get him, nor the club, to get any sort of interest in acting against the war, despite that, you know, people tend to die in it. Furthermore, our school, who claims to champion human dignity and the value of life, actually has FORBID an anti-war group from being formed at the school, so those folks have to do it on their own at each other's houses(btw, there's only four people who participate in it). So far the only reason I've ever been able to deduce from mostly elusive teachers is that the school doesn't want to appear anti-American. Well, GAH!

I appreciate your feelings and I respect them. I also appreciate that you see the Roe decision for what it is.

In reality, issues of compassion and humanitarianism need to hook you at a young age. This usually happens due to one focal point - for me that was the issue of abortion. It opened my eyes to other issues regarding both human decency and failings.

The abortion fight keeps me firmly grounded to my compassion. I focus on the life and health of children and the ceaseless struggle for their healthy and loving upbringing; whether this is protecting them before they can voice their opinions or protecting them from abuse and starvation.

This is my humanizing strong point. I am, in Ron Paul's words, and "unshakable foe of abortion". Due to the strength of other movements and my personal involvement in the abortion movement, that is my bulkhead and focus - I am devoted to it first and feel that I best serve the well being of children by focusing my efforts toward ending or severely limiting the practice.

As I learn to better multi-task other issues will grab my focus as well.