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Thread: March For Life

  1. #61
    Praefectus Fabrum Senior Member Anime BlackJack Champion, Flash Poker Champion, Word Up Champion, Shape Game Champion, Snake Shooter Champion, Fishwater Challenge Champion, Rocket Racer MX Champion, Jukebox Hero Champion, My House Is Bigger Than Your House Champion, Funky Pong Champion, Cutie Quake Champion, Fling The Cow Champion, Tiger Punch Champion, Virus Champion, Solitaire Champion, Worm Race Champion, Rope Walker Champion, Penguin Pass Champion, Skate Park Champion, Watch Out Champion, Lawn Pac Champion, Weapons Of Mass Destruction Champion, Skate Boarder Champion, Lane Bowling Champion, Bugz Champion, Makai Grand Prix 2 Champion, White Van Man Champion, Parachute Panic Champion, BlackJack Champion, Stans Ski Jumping Champion, Smaugs Treasure Champion, Sofa Longjump Champion Seamus Fermanagh's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    Bah. Haven't they realized yet that banning abortion just isn't possible?

    And, should you do that, instead of being lumped together with industrialized countries like France, Germany and England, you'll get lumped together with glorious countries like Talibanistan, Nobodycaresistan and Mudhutland...
    So the legalized killing of the unborn is the ACME of culture/civilization? Even if I were to hold the same view as do you and Rory and many others as to the "start point" of life, I'm certain I wouldn't go quite that far.

    I recognize that, for those who do not view life as having resulted at conception, the issue of abortion is completely different -- if it is not an independent life, than there is little moral difference between abortion and abdominoplasty. In fact, more of those who take the not-until-long-after-conception view of life would likely oppose the abdominoplasty as vane or a sign of poor self control but would consider the abortion a wise choice.


    Note: For those of you who consistently repeat the mantra that "banning abortion isn't possible" or, "even if you make them illegal, abortions will still occur:"

    Definitionally, you are correct. Abortion and abortificants pre-dated laws and moral efforts to stop abortion. Were abortion to be prohibited globally, it would still occur.

    However, the rate of abortion per 1000 pregnancies is ALWAYS lower -- sometimes much lower -- when such a procedure is illegal. For those of you who view extant life as trumping an undeveloped tissue mass in all cases, you see this as a near-criminal restriction of individual rights. For those of us who take the conception view of life, however, a reduction of even 1 abortion per 1000 pregnancies -- or 1 abortion total globally -- is a success. So, even though banning the procedure will not eradicate it, the reduction in its use is seen as a triumph for life. The "abortions will happen anyway" argument thus fails to persuade any but the already convinced.


    For those commenting on "spontaneous" abortion or failed implantation:

    Yes, we who view life as having begun at conception recognize this as a death -- even when we are unaware of that death. Many catholics pray daily for the eternal peace of such souls. The Church advanced the concept of Limbo long since -- though it is little talked about today -- with the concept that, in God's time and mercy these souls too might be saved.

    Morally however, a spontaneous abortion or failed implantation was NOT the result of a purposive action. No effort was made to end the life in question, and the "parents" were likely unaware that it had begun or concluded. It is an "accident" of life no different than were I to trip at the top of my stairs and break my neck. Though I hope that not too many of you are rooting for that event after this post.
    Last edited by Seamus Fermanagh; 01-28-2008 at 14:48.
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  2. #62
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    So the legalized killing of the unborn is the ACME of culture/civilization?
    The ACME of culture and civilisation would (should?) IMHO rather be that unwanted preganancies and abortions are an exception because

    a) people of both gender properly take care of birth control if they do not want to raise a child

    b) even if an unplanned pregnancy happens the child would be born into a society where its presence would not be considered to be detrimental to the well-being of the parents (i.e. negatice effect on economic situation, career, "life-style")

    While I am pro-choice (within a certain time-period and/or under certain consitions), I'd rather prefer abortions to be an exception.

  3. #63
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    I'll go one further, and suggest the ACME of civilization and culture will have been achieved when we KNOW when life begins (and ends, for that matter) in an individual human.

    Today, we do not know. We guess. And we make the 'protect life' societal decisions based on that guesswork.

    I'm neither a scientist, nor a theologian, just a citizen who has to help my society decide who gets to live and who gets to die, from the moment of conception to 90 days after apparent death. In between those two events, the society I live in today generally believes individual humans should be left to their own devices, with occasional help given, or hinderence imposed, by the rest of us, when it seems warranted - whether for the good of the individual, or the good of the group-at-large.

    Since we today don't KNOW when life begins, and having seen inter-uterine photos of apparently viable beings at various stages of development, I fall back (temporarily, until we KNOW) to the default position of over-estimating the probable 'life-infusion event', and hold the position that societally-protected life begins moments after 'unprotected' sex.

    A man's body is his own to do with what he will, generally. A woman's body is her own to do with what she will, also.

    UNTIL a third body exists to take into consideration. Then those two people - who agreed to a union that might produce a third person, forfeit some control of their bodies in the interests of that third person, who's body is his or her own ALSO to do with that he or she will.

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  4. #64
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
    Interestingly, if you apply the definition of "human being" that your wikipedia-article on homicide links to, your statement that abortion clearly is "homicide" is quite incorrect.
    "Humans, or human beings, are bipedal primates belonging to the mammalian species Homo sapiens"

    Is it alive? What species is it?

    Could you consider someone born with no legs as a bi-pedal primate? It sounds as if they'd be disqualified as human begins according to the wiki article.

    What about conjoined twins? Who's body is that? If they are both healthy together, but only one would survive if separated, who can make the choice? Just the one that can live on its own?

    Hypothetical:

    Now lets say that they will separate naturally in nine months and the other twin will be able to survive. Should the healthy twin unilaterally have the option to do the separation in advance if it will mean the death of the other?

    Is it reasonable to require them to wait?

    Tell me the differences between a fetus at 5 months and a brand new infant. Both are technically able to live outside of the uterus (only with state or parental aid). Does this call into question the viability of the infant? Does it call into question the viability of the fetus?

    The sick part is that people view the termination of the pregnancy as the "choice", and make little mention of the choice that they already made to create the baby. I would support state funded birth control if they would make all abortion except to save the life of the mother illegal.


    Remember this?

    Dred Scott v. Sanford (1857)
    Supreme Court decides that slaves are property and Congress cannot deprive citizens of their property. Slaves are “not citizens of any state” and “have no rights a court must respect.”

    Yet another good call in U.S. history...
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 01-28-2008 at 15:59.
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  5. #65
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    "Humans, or human beings, are bipedal primates belonging to the mammalian species Homo sapiens"

    Is it alive? What species is it?

    Could you consider someone born with no legs as a bi-pedal primate? It sounds as if they'd be disqualified as human begins according to the wiki article.

    What about conjoined twins? Who's body is that? If they are both healthy together, but only one would survive if separated, who can make the choice? Just the one that can live on its own?
    I am fully with you with regard to how sloppy the wiki definition for "human being" is. I just thought it would be interesting that you then refer to this source to support your claim that abortion "clearly" is homicide

  6. #66
    This comment is witty! Senior Member LittleGrizzly's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    The sick part is that people view the termination of the pregnancy as the "choice", and make little mention of the choice that they already made to create the baby. I would support state funded birth control if they would make all abortion except to save the life of the mother illegal.

    a number of minor things can happen like the condom breaking or an operation to make you infertile not working but ill ignore these for the momet as they make up a tiny percentage (i would guess)

    Almost everyone seems to agree to it when the mother life is in danger or it is the result of a rape.

    The main problem and the majority are people who have abortions are people who chose to have sex, that is the choice they made they didn't chose to have the baby. People enjoy having sex and younger have more of it and being young are less responsible about it. So my point is people shouldn't b punished for choosing to have sex they didn't want the bay to start with.
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  7. #67
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
    I am fully with you with regard to how sloppy the wiki definition for "human being" is. I just thought it would be interesting that you then refer to this source to support your claim that abortion "clearly" is homicide
    I was just pointing to what a homicide is:



    Main Entry:
    ho·mi·cide
    Pronunciation:
    \ˈhä-mə-ˌsīd, ˈhō-\
    Function:
    noun
    Etymology:
    in sense 1, from Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin homicida, from homo human being + -cida -cide; in sense 2, from Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin homicidium, from homo + -cidium -cide
    Date:
    14th century

    1 : a person who kills another
    2 : a killing of one human being by another


    The source really doesn't mean much - that is the common understanding of the word



    Quote Originally Posted by LittleGrizzly
    So my point is people shouldn't b punished for choosing to have sex they didn't want the babyy to start with.
    Especially the baby. People have a responsibility to protect a child from being killed. Use protection or avoid sex. If a child comes out of the experience, he/she is your responsibility - or you can have it killed at this point in time.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 01-28-2008 at 16:50.
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  8. #68
    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    Especially the baby. People have a responsibility to protect a child from being killed. Use protection or avoid sex. If a child comes out of the experience, he/she is your responsibility - or you can have it killed at this point in time.

    A fetus is no more a baby than a baby is an adult.
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  9. #69
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking
    A fetus is no more a baby than a baby is an adult.
    Actually, that isn't true. Numerous dictionaries include fetuses as babies. I'll use Child or Infant instead for the sake of argument. You can have a newborn infant/baby or a premature infant/baby, but for some reason if the same child was still in utero, he/she would not be an infant/baby? That sounds like semantics rather than science to me. Is the umbilical cord the qualifier?


    Check out this little essay. I liked it, but I would.

    Are the Unborn Human?
    Jonathan Krive
    http://www.hscca.org/articles/aretheunbornhuman.html

    One third of my generation is missing. One third of those who would have been born after 1973, are not here today. One third of my generation has been aborted. In 1973, the Supreme Court decided that the right to privacy included the right of a woman to abort her pregnancy. In order to extend this right to abortion, the Supreme Court held that the unborn were not human.

    The abortion debate is made overly complex. Those who are pro-life sometimes fail to present concise, logical support for their assertions. As a result, few people realize the simplicity of the abortion debate. Allow me to present a simple, but logical argument for the pro-life position. First I will look at the most important question in the abortion debate. Then, I will explore, from both a biological and philosophical perspective, the humanity of the unborn. Last, I will examine some objections to the pro-life position, and why they are not justification for abortion.

    However, I believe that the entire abortion debate can be resolved by taking a trip to the kitchen. Imagine that you are washing dishes and your child comes up behind you and asks, “Daddy or Mommy, can I kill this?” What would be your first response? Something like, “What is it?” If it is a snail or ant, then you probably won’t have any problem. However, if it is his younger brother, or baby sister, then your response would change dramatically.

    You see, the ultimate question is, “What are the unborn?” If the unborn are not human, then no justification for elective abortion is necessary; but if the unborn are human, then no justification for elective abortion is adequate.

    So are the unborn human? I propose that when you as a person were conceived, you were a distinct, self-integrated, whole, human being. We can substantiate this idea in two ways: First lets take a look at the biological aspect, and then we’ll look at the philosophical aspect.

    Former abortionist Dr. Beverly McMillan states, “The baby is human from the moment of conception. When the one cell it is made of has the characteristic 46 chromosomes of the human species, it is unique from that moment. Eighteen days after conception [the] baby's heart is already beating, often pumping a different blood type than [the mother’s]. According to the Journal of the American Medical Association, “Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days. If you touch a little baby's nose at that point it will draw its head back.” In half a month after conception, a baby has a heart. After a little over a month, the unborn are thinking.

    Furthermore, we can look to the Law of Biogenesis, which states, living things reproduce after their own kind, meaning: dogs reproduce dogs, cats reproduce cats, and humans reproduce humans. If you want to find out what species something is, just look at its parents. Humans cannot reproduce a “clump of cells” or a “potential human,” because a potential X, must be an actual Y. If the unborn aren’t human, then what are they? Biologically, the unborn must be human.

    Now, lets address the philosophical aspect. Most people agree that the newborn are completely human; yet, the unborn differ from the newborn in only four ways, none of which are relevant to its status as a human. Steven Schwartz outlines these differences in his book The Moral Question of Abortion: Size, Level of development, Environment, and Degree of dependency. If you don’t meet these 4 criteria are you less human? Let’s take a look:

    First, size: The unborn are smaller than the newborn, but does size have anything to do with whether or not you are human? If so, then it would seem men are more human then women because they are generally bigger, and pro-basketball players like Shaquille o’ Neil have are the most human of all. Clearly size is not a criterion.

    Second, Level of Development: The unborn are less developed than the newborn, but the newborn are less developed than children, and children are less developed than adults. In fact, you don’t reach your peak of mental development until age 40, so if level of development is a criterion for being human, then everyone under 40 is still gaining their humanity. Just because you aren’t fully developed does not mean you are less human.

    Environment: Again, the unborn are located in a different place, but how does location suddenly change you into a non-human? The only difference between a newborn baby, and an unborn baby is 8 inches of birth canal. How does moving 8 inches, suddenly change a blob of tissue into a human?

    Last, Degree of Dependency: If viability is what makes one human, then everyone who is dependent on a pace maker, or some form of medication would be declared non-human. Perhaps you heard about the Siamese twins from Egypt who were in the news last year. One of the twins was physically dependent on the other twin; does this fact mean that one of the twins was not human? Dependency is not a criterion for being human.

    Philosophically speaking, the unborn are not different from the newborn in any way that would disqualify them from being human. The four differences of size, level of development, environment, and degree of dependency are not criteria for being a human. The unborn are just as human as the newborn.

    So from both a biological and philosophical perspective, the unborn are human. How does this fact affect the abortion debate? Let’s analyze some of the many objections to the pro-life position.

    The primary justification for abortion is the mother’s right to choose. A mother should have the right to abort her pregnancy. But does a mother have the right to choose to abort her unborn child? Let me ask the same question in a different context. Does a mother have a right to choose to terminate her newborn baby? We all realize that killing a newborn child is murder, but why is it murder? Because that child is human, and as such, has the same rights as you and I do.

    Yet, we must ask the question, what is the difference between the human unborn, and the human already born? This question brings us to another objection. Many people assert that personhood is conferred upon birth. It is questionable why moving 8 inches would suddenly change a blob of tissue into a human. But furthermore, this criterion is wholly arbitrary. In November of 1992, Discover Magazine ran a feature story on fetal surgery where doctors repaired herniated diaphragms and spinal disks on unborn babies 21 to 24 weeks old. They would partially remove these babies from the womb, perform this surgery, and then put them back in the womb. The obvious question is, did these babies become human during the operation outside the womb, and then become non-human because they were put back in the womb? No justification is adequate for taking innocent human life.

    We must realize our right to life is not given by any human source. It is not up to the choice of the mother, or the father; the right to life is not based on the choice of the president, or even the Supreme Court. The right to life is an endowment from almighty God, and no one has the right to choose to take it away.

    However, every day, according to Planned Parenthood, approximately 3,700 unborn children lose their lives. Imagine the outrage we would feel if terrorists committed another September 11 th type attack on America. Now imagine what we would feel if that type of attack happened every day, because it does.

    The next time you look at the United States flag, count each of the 50 stars, because each star represents one million unborn babies who have been aborted. The number of abortions since 1973 is rapidly approaching 50 million. One third of my generation is missing. One third of those who would have been born after 1973, are not here today. One third of my generation has been aborted.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 01-28-2008 at 17:53.
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  10. #70
    Bureaucratically Efficient Senior Member TinCow's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Alright, I'll finally toss in my actual opinion on this, since it has been an interesting discussion. That last article was particularly good and I agree with much of it.

    My personal opinion is simply that a zygote is not an entity worthy of legal protection. I agree it is human and I agree it is not the same being as either the mother or the father. However, it is still a single-celled organism. I do not believe that a single-celled organism is worthy of legal protection simply because it has different genes than the other cells around it. I also do not believe that a zygote is sentient and thus I do not believe that it can suffer when aborted.

    By analogy, it is not uncommon for one fetus to 'absorb' another while it is in the womb. Many times, this results in bits and pieces of the absorbed fetus, such as teeth and hair, developing inside the absorber. These bits and pieces can have entirely different genes from the absorber and are in all practical respects part of a different person. I do not believe that removing these stray parts of an absorbed twin is bad, even though it kills them. Killing a zygote seems to me to be no different than removing these stray bits of an absorbed fetus.

    I also know that a fetus becomes a full-fledged human long before it is born. I believe it is wrong to abort the fetus at this point, because I know it is a sentient being. However, I have no idea when the fetus goes from being a non-sentient being to a sentient being. All I know is that I do not believe it is sentient at the moment of conception, but it does become sentient later. Therefore, with a lack of scientific evidence to guide me, I take an educated guess and go with the first trimester as my cut-off point because that is the bar that has been most commonly accepted as far as I am aware. If the majority of scientific opinion were to conclude that even a zygote is a fully self-aware being, I would change my mind on the issue.

    I also understand and sympathize with those who believe differently than me. It makes sense to me that anyone who views a zygote as a complete, sentient person would believe that an abortion of that zygote would be a bad thing. I simply believe differently and that for me is the deciding factor. I also understand that some people who have views similar to my own are against aborting even the single-celled zygote because they consider their very lack of knowledge about when it becomes a sentient being to be enough to warrant the utmost caution. This is also a worthy belief and one I can sympathize with, as I hold similar views in relation to the death penalty. All I can say to this is that I personally believe that the risks of aborting a sentient being during this first trimester are low enough (again, in my opinion) to be outweighed by the benefits to society from preventing unwanted pregnancies.

    Again, this is my personal opinion and it does not mean I am correct. I am just describing what I think and why I think that way, so that it can be understood by those who think differently. For the record, I also believe that a proper interpretation of the Constitution and common law would require abortions to be illegal. This is does not change my opinion on the propriety of the process itself, but it gives me a great deal of sympathy with those who believe that Roe v. Wade was a flawed decision. I agree and also believe it was a flawed decision. In my opinion abortion should be legalized through a Constitutional Amendment, not through SCOTUS.
    Last edited by TinCow; 01-28-2008 at 19:36.


  11. #71
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by TinCow
    Alright, I'll finally toss in my actual opinion on this, since it has been an interesting discussion. That last article was particularly good and I agree with much of it.

    My personal opinion is simply that a zygote is not an entity worthy of legal protection. I agree it is human and I agree it is not the same being as either the mother or the father. However, it is still a single-celled organism. I do not believe that a single-celled organism is worthy of legal protection simply because it has different genes than the other cells around it. I also do not believe that a zygote is sentient and thus I do not believe that it can suffer when aborted.

    By analogy, it is not uncommon for one fetus to 'absorb' another while it is in the womb. Many times, this results in bits and pieces of the absorbed fetus, such as teeth and hair, developing inside the absorber. These bits and pieces can have entirely different genes from the absorber and are in all practical respects part of a different person. I do not believe that removing these stray parts of an absorbed twin is bad, even though it kills them. Killing a zygote seems to me to be no different than removing these stray bits of an absorbed fetus.

    I also know that a fetus becomes a full-fledged human long before it is born. I believe it is wrong to abort the fetus at this point, because I know it is a sentient being. However, I have no idea when the fetus goes from being a non-sentient being to a sentient being. All I know is that I do not believe it is sentient at the moment of conception, but it does become sentient later. Therefore, with a lack of scientific evidence to guide me, I take an educated guess and go with the first trimester as my cut-off point because that is the bar that has been most commonly accepted as far as I am aware. If the majority of scientific opinion were to conclude that even a zygote is a fully self-aware being, I would change my mind on the issue.

    I also understand and sympathize with those who believe differently than me. It makes sense to me that anyone who views a zygote as a complete, sentient person would believe that an abortion of that zygote would be a bad thing. I simply believe differently and that for me is the deciding factor. I also understand that some people who have views similar to my own are against aborting even the single-celled zygote because they consider their very lack of knowledge about when it becomes a sentient being to be enough to warrant the utmost caution. This is also a worthy belief and one I can sympathize with, as I hold similar views in relation to the death penalty. All I can say to this is that I personally believe that the risks of aborting a sentient being during this first trimester are low enough (again, in my opinion) to be outweighed by the benefits to society from preventing unwanted pregnancies.

    Again, this is my personal opinion and it does not mean I am correct. I am just describing what I think and why I think that way, so that it can be understood by those who think differently. For the record, I also believe that a proper interpretation of the Constitution and common law would require abortions to be illegal. This is does not change my opinion on the propriety of the process itself, but it gives me a great deal of sympathy with those who believe that Roe v. Wade was a flawed decision. I agree and also believe it was a flawed decision. In my opinion abortion should be legalized through a Constitutional Amendment, not through SCOTUS.
    Reasonable. I would be ecstatic if they made it a law that it was permissible in the first 1 or 2 months ONLY and after that was permissible in an effort to save the life of the mother.

    Ideally, I would like the law to be drawn at conception because I think it leaves little room for error, but I know that it is a hard sell to a number of people. I would still fight for the issue, but maybe I could put it further down the list.

    I also agree that Roe v. Wade was a bad decision
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 01-28-2008 at 19:53.
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  12. #72
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Anyone have any new ideas for backroom discussion? These old faithfuls are getting repetitive.


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  13. #73
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    And boring.


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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    C'mon, topics are for the poster (in this case ME). If you want to talk, talk - if you don't, don't - and start another one. If you are posting in an effort to convey the frustration that you feel in having to listen to this debate time and time again without any real or attainable legislative way of solving it - I totally understand.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 01-28-2008 at 20:17.
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    Hǫrðar Member Viking's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    Actually, that isn't true. Numerous dictionaries include fetuses as babies. I'll use Child or Infant instead for the sake of argument. You can have a newborn infant/baby or a premature infant/baby, but for some reason if the same child was still in utero, he/she would not be an infant/baby? That sounds like semantics rather than science to me. Is the umbilical cord the qualifier?
    It is really semantics. A human being is relative; it is undergoing evolution during its whole life. A cluster of cells may have the potential of becoming humans, but that does not make them humans Are sperm cells and egg cells half-humans? They certainly have the potential.


    Check out this little essay. I liked it, but I would.
    A faulty argument there:

    One third of my generation is missing. One third of those who would have been born after 1973, are not here today. One third of my generation has been aborted.
    a) Those humans would not been there either if the woman did not have sex in the first place. The embryo gets killed, and we're back to where we were before. The generation is not "missing". He could just about complain about those who used birth control as well.

    By taking abortion, one deny a certain person his/her life. The same is the case when one does not have sex for the purpose of reproduction. Humans can only come into existence with that certain egg cell and that certain sperm cell. If my DNA was slightly different, I would also be slightly different. Me is only possibel through a certain combination of DNA.
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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Viking
    If my DNA was slightly different, I would also be slightly different. Me is only possibel through a certain combination of DNA.
    So you, or your humanity are determined by your specific DNA?
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
    -Eric "George Orwell" Blair

    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
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  17. #77
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    I wonder how many children have died in hunger around the world, while the debate in this thread has been ongoing. If we are so worried about human lives, should we not first care of those that are actually born and are dying in disease and hunger, or is it just that the birth is a right so special and after that everybody is on their own?
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  18. #78
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha
    I wonder how many children have died in hunger around the world, while the debate in this thread has been ongoing. If we are so worried about human lives, should we not first care of those that are actually born and are dying in disease and hunger, or is it just that the birth is a right so special and after that everybody is on their own?
    We don't care about them because it doesn't affect us. Or at least not until someone pastes their faces on TV.


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  19. #79
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha
    I wonder how many children have died in hunger around the world, while the debate in this thread has been ongoing. If we are so worried about human lives, should we not first care of those that are actually born and are dying in disease and hunger, or is it just that the birth is a right so special and after that everybody is on their own?
    That's a deflection. Some people can debate one thing AND Debate another. It is a groundbreaking thought. Start a thread.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
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    "If the policy of the government, upon vital questions affecting the whole people, is to be irrevocably fixed by decisions of the Supreme Court...the people will have ceased to be their own rulers, having to that extent practically resigned the government into the hands of that eminent tribunal."
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  20. #80
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha
    I wonder how many children have died in hunger around the world, while the debate in this thread has been ongoing.
    Since you wondered: the thread was started about 74 hours ago. The global death-rate (not just hungry kids, but including all death) runs about 8.67 deaths annually, per 1,000 population (a 2006 estimation based on census). So, about 519,149, give or take a few hundred, people have died since Tuffy posted the OP.

    The W.Health Org might have numbers on the percentage of deaths = hungry children.

    That said, point taken. We say life is sacrosanct, but sometimes we don't concern ourselves too much with the quality of life of our contemporaries.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  21. #81
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    Since you wondered: the thread was started about 74 hours ago. The global death-rate (not just hungry kids, but including all death) runs about 8.67 deaths annually, per 1,000 population (a 2006 estimation based on census). So, about 519,149, give or take a few hundred, people have died since Tuffy posted the OP.

    The W.Health Org might have numbers on the percentage of deaths = hungry children.

    That said, point taken. We say life is sacrosanct, but sometimes we don't concern ourselves too much with the quality of life of our contemporaries.
    I agree. Yet another eminently important topic. One that should not be used as a weapon to quiet the discussion of the other.
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  22. #82
    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    I agree. Yet another eminently important topic. One that should not be used as a weapon to quiet the discussion of the other.
    I don't think Kage's query was meant to quiet discussion. I took it as (in fine backroom tradition) introducing yet another variable to consider in the discussion of abortion.

    He introduced the "incongruity factor": that we concern ourselves with the legality, morality, and practical application of the premise all life is sacred, and should be protected, whilst being comparatively unconcerned with the life-threatening factors of those already born.

    I think it's a fair observation that we should look to the ultimate sincerity of our positions, and their applicability to the issue at hand.

    If we got 5 or 6 subsequent posts about hunger, THAT would be a derailment, I agree; and I would step in. I think we're OK so far.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

  23. #83
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Seamus Fermanagh
    So the legalized killing of the unborn is the ACME of culture/civilization? Even if I were to hold the same view as do you and Rory and many others as to the "start point" of life, I'm certain I wouldn't go quite that far.
    Whether or not abortion is the "ACME of culture" doesn't matter, the fact will remain that should you ban it, the only countries with a similar law will be Talibanistan, Nobodycaresistan and Mudhutland.

    But hey, if you wish to be mentioned in the same breath as Talibanistan and their likes; be my guest. I don't live in the US, so I really couldn't care what you do with your citizens.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  24. #84
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    I don't think Kage's query was meant to quiet discussion. I took it as (in fine backroom tradition) introducing yet another variable to consider in the discussion of abortion.

    He introduced the "incongruity factor": that we concern ourselves with the legality, morality, and practical application of the premise all life is sacred, and should be protected, whilst being comparatively unconcerned with the life-threatening factors of those already born.

    I think it's a fair observation that we should look to the ultimate sincerity of our positions, and their applicability to the issue at hand.

    If we got 5 or 6 subsequent posts about hunger, THAT would be a derailment, I agree; and I would step in. I think we're OK so far.
    Right. The march for life focuses on abortion because it is the anniversary of the Roe decision.

    If this was a thread about the pro-life movement, that would be one thing, but we are talking about something specifically related to the case at hand, surrounding cases and the unwillingness of the media to cover the march.

    The pro-life movement attempts to defend all life from individual and government stances against life. From euthanasia, abortion and starvation to war and the spread of life threatening diseases.

    It seemed to me that the poster brought up his point to illustrate a perceived insignificant relationship that the anti-abortion movement has with other problems of the day. The intent seemed to guilt posters into quiting the discussion due to what he labeled as more pressing problems. You didn't see it that way?

    Find me someone who is strongly pro-life and doesn't believe in attacking world hunger. Non-issue for this discussion, unless you are using it as an excuse for population control through the use of abortion.

    Also - calling people who are against abortion as kins of the taleban is a pretty weak argument, eh hore?
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 01-28-2008 at 21:52.
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  25. #85
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Thanks for the detailed information Kukri Sama.
    I didnt mean to sound like i would be on high horse in this issue. It was just an honest question about priorities, see i have personal experiences about the issues at hand.
    I have been the other side of a couple who made abortion. Back in 2001, after my back then, ex got pregnant after contraception failed and we decided to have an abortion. Because i can never go inside other persons head, i cant say for sure, but after talking with her a lot, i think we both didnt want the child. What im sure about is that i didnt want it and my stance on the issue probably effected her opinion also. Now i was lot younger then but not that young, 22 years old.
    The reason for me not wanting the child was simply that i felt i wasnt ready for it. Now looking back, what was my motive? Id say greed. I was greedy to have my own youth and not start a family. Maybe i was selfish and immature and made a intentional decision to deny the child his or hers life. Now does that make me and my ex murderers? I dont know. Does it make me a worse person? Maybe. I make decisions, some are bad, some are good, some hurt me, some hurt others.Do i regret that decision? Sometimes yes and its hard to explain the emotion it creates inside me. Do i want legistlation that decides for me what to do in that kind of situation? No.I think its a decision individuals should do themselves. Will i carry that decision with me for the rest of my life? Definitely yes.
    Now those of you who see abortion as murder are free to hate me for what ive done. Here you have a person, not some faceless evil. If this issue turns me into a disgusting person, thats the prize i have to pay for my decision.Thats all i have to say in the issue.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  26. #86
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha
    Thanks for the detailed information Kukri Sama.
    I didnt mean to sound like i would be on high horse in this issue. It was just an honest question about priorities, see i have personal experiences about the issues at hand.
    I have been the other side of a couple who made abortion. Back in 2001, after my back then, ex got pregnant after contraception failed and we decided to have an abortion. Because i can never go inside other persons head, i cant say for sure, but after talking with her a lot, i think we both didnt want the child. What im sure about is that i didnt want it and my stance on the issue probably effected her opinion also. Now i was lot younger then but not that young, 22 years old.
    The reason for me not wanting the child was simply that i felt i wasnt ready for it. Now looking back, what was my motive? Id say greed. I was greedy to have my own youth and not start a family. Maybe i was selfish and immature and made a intentional decision to deny the child his or hers life. Now does that make me and my ex murderers? I dont know. Does it make me a worse person? Maybe. I make decisions, some are bad, some are good, some hurt me, some hurt others.Do i regret that decision? Sometimes yes and its hard to explain the emotion it creates inside me. Do i want legistlation that decides for me what to do in that kind of situation? No.I think its a decision individuals should do themselves. Will i carry that decision with me for the rest of my life? Definitely yes.
    Now those of you who see abortion as murder are free to hate me for what ive done. Here you have a person, not some faceless evil. If this issue turns me into a disgusting person, thats the prize i have to pay for my decision.Thats all i have to say in the issue.
    My aim isn't to hate people who feel pressure and listen to those who say that abortion isn't murder. Blame lies with numerous parties. The victim is already deceased and it seems as though nobody mourns the loss of a child - mother and father simply purged an inconvenient growth. You won't be charged with a crime; blame and hate will do little to remedy that situation.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 01-28-2008 at 22:05.
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  27. #87
    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    What this world needs is a HEAVY dose of birth control. Human beings are indeed a virus, and we're breeding and spreading out of control, full of ourselves and our arrogance believing this planet is ours by right of divine gift or some other mystical being.

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  28. #88
    Shadow Senior Member Kagemusha's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    My aim isn't to hate people who feel pressure and listen to those who say that abortion isn't murder. Blame lies with numerous parties. The victim is already deceased and it seems as though nobody mourns the loss of a child - mother and father simply purged an inconvenient growth. You won't be charged with a crime; blame and hate will do little to remedy that situation.
    Well you are free to think as you like. If you are talking about victims, it already shows what you think. I hope i would live in a world, where there are good answers for all the questions and everybody would only make good decisions that wouldnt cause harm to anyone else. Sadly i dont live in that kind of world.
    Ja Mata Tosainu Sama.

  29. #89
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha
    Well you are free to think as you like. If you are talking about victims, it already shows what you think. I hope i would live in a world, where there are good answers for all the questions and everybody would only make good decisions that wouldnt cause harm to anyone else. Sadly i dont live in that kind of world.
    We can try to make it better. Part of that is putting a respect for life in the forefront even if it isn't convenient. It will lead to less war and less starvation. The abortion issue is the building block to more compassion across the board.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
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  30. #90
    Amphibious Trebuchet Salesman Member Whacker's Avatar
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    Default Re: March For Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Kagemusha
    Well you are free to think as you like. If you are talking about victims, it already shows what you think. I hope i would live in a world, where there are good answers for all the questions and everybody would only make good decisions that wouldnt cause harm to anyone else. Sadly i dont live in that kind of world.
    This right here is the sticking point that our neoconservative christian "friends" don't get. In a perfect world, abortion would rarely ever happen. People wouldn't have unprotected sex, rape doesn't happen, no babies out of wedlock/whatever is appropriate for the culture/etc, medical complications are rare. In short, in some kind of fantasy existence, I'd agree. The problem is that women are raped all the time, "boyfriends" impregnate and then leave girls, often mentally or physically abusing them, in most current legal situations the man has little to no say given the situation even though half ot it is his DNA (I knew 2 men who had girlfriends who got pregnant purposefully and vindictively in spite of them), families abandon or push away girls who violate social stigmas by getting pregnant purposefully or accidentally, the list goes on and on. I've unfortunately experienced most all of those with women (girls) who've been related to close to me. It's the stuff of nightmares that ruins lives. Tincow already wrote a very thoughtful post that mirrors quite a bit of my personal opinion, which goes "well" with my life experiences. In short, the old adage "You'll wish you'd never been born" is the best way to sum it up. The quality of life for the child-to-be in any circumstances, as well as the mental and psychological damage that the child, mother, and others suffer would far outweight any "positives" had they been born.

    I guess it just annoys the hell out of me when I see self-righteous bible-thumpers standing on their pulpits shouting "MURDERERS!" at others that have been through far, far worse than they could ever imagine in their sheltered little lives.

    My $199.95 USD.

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