Jailbreak in Gaza

[Papewaio]

'Their land'? Why any more so than third-generation Israelis living there now? Whatever it was sixty years ago, it's not theirs now.

vs

'Their land'? Why any more so than ninety-generation Palestinians living there now? Whatever it was since Roman occupation, it's not theirs now.

Consider that there are reports of Palestinians tending Olive trees that there ancestors planted and that some of these tress are dying from old age, methinks they may be firmly rooted to their land.

[Don Corleone]

Apartheid. Holocaust references. Facism. Yes, those nasty Israelis deserve all the scorn in the world, don't they Beirut? Why won't they just let those Palestinians blow up children at school and shut up about it? Why won't they just go away? Why won't they just shut up and die?

In all the years of arguing this topic with you, I've never once heard you offer a solution that doesn't coincide with the Palestinian solution... kill all the Israelis. Hmmm, and somehow, the Israelis are the thugs.

[Ice]

Apartheid. Holocaust references. Facism. Yes, those nasty Israelis deserve all the scorn in the world, don't they Beirut? Why won't they just let those Palestinians blow up children at school and shut up about it? Why won't they just go away? Why won't they just shut up and die?

In all the years of arguing this topic with you, I've never once heard you offer a solution that doesn't coincide with the Palestinian solution... kill all the Israelis. Hmmm, and somehow, the Israelis are the thugs.

It's fairly typical. I see it from both sides here actually.

Once again, both sides are at fault. The Israelis are starving the people of Gaza, while the government in Gaza allows and most likely funds rocket attacks in Israel. No one here is really in the right.

I guess pointless bickering about who has the moral high ground works better though than finding a solution.

[Ronin]

Apartheid. Holocaust references. Facism. Yes, those nasty Israelis deserve all the scorn in the world, don't they Beirut? Why won't they just let those Palestinians blow up children at school and shut up about it? Why won't they just go away? Why won't they just shut up and die?

In all the years of arguing this topic with you, I've never once heard you offer a solution that doesn't coincide with the Palestinian solution... kill all the Israelis. Hmmm, and somehow, the Israelis are the thugs.

they´re both thugs....both sides in that problem have long ago lost the right to call them selfs the "good guys"....I say try to keep the explosions to a minimum...and that´s as good as it´s gonna get.

[Beirut]

Apartheid. Holocaust references. Facism. Yes, those nasty Israelis deserve all the scorn in the world, don't they Beirut? Why won't they just let those Palestinians blow up children at school and shut up about it? Why won't they just go away? Why won't they just shut up and die?

I think you'll be hard pressed to find any post where I said that.

In all the years of arguing this topic with you, I've never once heard you offer a solution that doesn't coincide with the Palestinian solution... kill all the Israelis. Hmmm, and somehow, the Israelis are the thugs.

I think you wil be hard pressed to find any post where I said that either.

Anything else?

[Don Corleone]

I never said you advocate Hamas's exterminate all Jews policy. I said you've never offered an alternative, just that you agree with their conclusions. I've offered a 2-state solution as a compromise, and you've rejected it. You seem quite fixed on the idea that Jews must leave Israel. Where, according to superior powers of logic, should they go?

[Beirut]

I never said you advocate Hamas's exterminate all Jews policy. I said you've never offered an alternative, just that you agree with their conclusions. I've offered a 2-state solution as a compromise, and you've rejected it. You seem quite fixed on the idea that Jews must leave Israel.

I think the founding of Isreal where a population already lived was criminal. No bones about that. But I have said in the past, more than once, that since they're there, they're there, and they're going to stay there.

A two state solution is the way. I've said that before as well. But that means an independant Palestine, not a slave state permanently under the Israeli yoke and gun, which is what Israel wants.

You seem quite fixed on the idea that Jews must leave Israel.

You'll be hard pressd to find where I ever said that either.

Where, according to superior powers of logic, should they go?

Superior powers of logic? Arf! I think we'd need AdrianII in here for that.

[Xiahou]

Sounds like problem solved then. Egypt can surely take care of the oppressed Palestinians that they care so deeply about and with Gaza being abandoned, there will be no one to bother the Israelis. That was easy- should've done it decades ago.

[Beirut]

Sounds like problem solved then. Egypt can surely take care of the oppressed Palestinians that they care so deeply about and with Gaza being abandoned, there will be no one to bother the Israelis. That was easy- should've done it decades ago.

Egypt should help the Palestinians. So should every Arab country. It is shameful that the Arabs left the Palestinians to suffer under the Israelis for so long just to use them for political gain. With all that oil money they have, the Arabs (Iran as well) should be building schools and hospitals in Gaza by the dozens. Granted, the Israelis will blow them up as soon as they're built, but at least building them is a good start.

[Geoffrey S]

And as always Israelis become [insert adjective] Jews, murdering suicide bombers become freedom fighters, a debate becomes a series of disconnected attempts at justifying murder on either side, and I become rather bored...

[Paradox]

I'm glad Hosni Mubarak isn't being an ass about it this time, helping the Palestinians is something that not even our lazy middle-eastern governments care about.

[Husar]

And as always Israelis become [insert adjective] Jews, murdering suicide bombers become freedom fighters, a debate becomes a series of disconnected attempts at justifying murder on either side, and I become rather bored...

Why do you hate freedom?
Is that an attempt to stifle free speech? Are we here to entertain you?

That said, I do think the Palestinians have every right in the world to bomb Israel into the Pacific ocean and after that they have every right to take revenge on the UK who put the Israelis there in the first place, then they should nuke the US for supporting the UK and Israel, then Europe for trading with both and if they still feel a bit sad afterwards they can kill every Asian because they sold everybody their cheap goods. If that doesn't make up for their suffering I'd have to say that they're quite demanding but since I wouldn't exist anymore at that point, I won't have to think about that.

[Ice]

And as always Israelis become [insert adjective] Jews, murdering suicide bombers become freedom fighters, a debate becomes a series of disconnected attempts at justifying murder on either side, and I become rather bored...

Indeed.

We seem to be seeing eye to on this.

I keep wanting to post replies to both sides on this, but I just stop myself and decide it's really not worth the aggravation.

[Vladimir]

Whoever said genocide wasn't the answer is a fool. Kill the side that is less hostile to us.

Since this thread is based on emotion I might as well throw mine in. Given enough time no one will care.

Mind you none of this would have happen if Israel hadn't handed the land back to its "native" inhabitants.

(Last edit) There is no reason here thanks to the opening post.

[doc_bean]

Hamas and the terrorists are still supported by the people since Israel is still trying to expand and colonize Palestine further. The wall is often placed deep within what is officially palestine territory and there are several places entirely within palestine territory that are still occupied. Like Hebron, 400 settlers, 1100 soldiers to guard them.
No wonder the Palestians are still andry and still feel like they are fighting a war.

The Israeli government is imo still supported since they convinced the Israeli people that if they weaken for just the tiniest amount, they will all be killed by angry Arabs. Have you ever seen footage of Israeli soldiers guarding the wall ? Most of the ones I saw looked embarresed to be there. They have to be inhuman towards kids (who are not allowed to go the hospital if their papers aren't perfectly in order, even if they're bleeding half to death), and imo it kills most of them inside. I've heard a mother of a young man who was killed in a suicide attack say that she understands where the hatred from the Palestinians come from.

Both sides feel they have to be strong and tough, both sides support cruel and violent regimes. They have more in common than they'd ever want to admit

[x-dANGEr]

To the first, quite happily. Big mess all around largely caused by the Brits taking over, and the later Israelis capitalized on a situation in which the area was basically up for grabs.

Why should the Palestinian people take the hit when Britain promises and gives what it doesn't own?

[seireikhaan]

Don, are you telling me that depriving Palestinians of fuel and food is somehow going to deter attacks by radicals? You think sanctions which starve a populace is somehow going to make the average person LIKE Israel more, and thus diminish terrorist threats? Or do you think that getting revenge is more important than actually working towards peace?

[Don Corleone]

Gaza is an independentally controlled area. It's Palestine, if you're looking for a Res Publica to assign it to. Israel has no control there. What Israel has done is establish a wall where no weapons will pass from Egypt to Gaza. Sooner or later, when your neighbor continues to shell you, you try to limit his access to weaponry.

But if anybody read the link I posted (and for the record, don't let the name fool you, the Jerusalem Post is no Olmert apologist), Hamas has decreed as long as shipments are inspected, they'll consider that a boycott and no goods will be allowed.

This is, for lack of a better word, a self-inflicted 'famine', blamed on who else? Those filthy Jews, yet again.

[Beirut]

Gaza is an independentally controlled area. It's Palestine, if you're looking for a Res Publica to assign it to. Israel has no control there. What Israel has done is establish a wall where no weapons will pass from Egypt to Gaza. Sooner or later, when your neighbor continues to shell you, you try to limit his access to weaponry.

Israel has built a wall to control the people. Period. They want the Palestinians subjegated. Anything less is unacceptable. If the Palestinians "go free", it will show that Israel has been repressing an entire people for generations. Keep them locked up, keep them looking and acting like savages, then they can brutalize them at will and save face with the excuse of, "Oh, but they want to kill us all. Poor, poor us!"

This is, for lack of a better word, a self-inflicted 'famine', blamed on who else? Those filthy Jews, yet again.

A self-inflicted famine?

That's as extraordinary a statement as I have seen in my five-years at the Org.

And would you please stop calling them filthy Jews. The three kindest, gentlest, most humane people I have ever known were all Jewish, and none of them were filthy in any way.

[seireikhaan]

Gaza is an independentally controlled area. It's Palestine, if you're looking for a Res Publica to assign it to. Israel has no control there. What Israel has done is establish a wall where no weapons will pass from Egypt to Gaza. Sooner or later, when your neighbor continues to shell you, you try to limit his access to weaponry.

But if anybody read the link I posted (and for the record, don't let the name fool you, the Jerusalem Post is no Olmert apologist), Hamas has decreed as long as shipments are inspected, they'll consider that a boycott and no goods will be allowed.

This is, for lack of a better word, a self-inflicted 'famine', blamed on who else? Those filthy Jews, yet again.

Hmm? Did YOU read the article? A) I'm not sure I trust the Jerusalem post on an issue regarding Palestinians, B) It never stated ANYWHERE that Hamas inflicted any kind of famine on the people, only blackouts, and C) ITS HAMAS' JOB TO HELP THE PEOPLE THERE! OF COURSE HE'S GOING TO WANT THE SANCTIONS LIFTED, PEOPLE ARE GOING WITHOUT FREAKIN' FOOD, WATER, AND GASOLINE! Would you not expect your own regional leader to stand up for you if you were in the Palestinian position? And before you even go on about Hamas not being elected, how far do you think he'd get if he didn't get support from the populace?

[woad&fangs]

This will never get solved by politics. This ends when the country's youth look at each other and judge, not on the other persons religion, but on the content of each others character.* If the Palestinians are Ghettoed inside a wall(that bitter taste in your mouth is called hypocrisy. The remedy is to apologize and to tear down the wall) than the Israelis will see rockets instead of the people behind the wall. Rockets don't create friendships, people do.


*I'm on a MLK Jr. binge right now. Isreal could really benefit from a King Jr. like figure right now.

[woad&fangs]

This will never get solved by politics. This ends when the country's youth look at each other and judge, not on the other persons religion, but on the content of each others character.* If the Palestinians are Ghettoed inside a wall(that bitter taste in your mouth is called hypocrisy. The remedy is to apologize and to tear down the wall) than the Israelis will see rockets instead of the people behind the wall. Rockets don't create friendships, people do.


*I'm on a MLK Jr. binge right now. Plus, Isreal could really benefit from a King Jr. like figure right now.

[Beirut]

All I know is that the news tonight showed film of Palestinians buying food, getting fuel, and a couple of guys hauling a nice old Honda motorcycle over the remnants of the wall into Gaza. One family was all dressed up, just walking around, enjoying being free for a while.

It looked great!

[Ice]

All I know is that the news tonight showed film of Palestinians buying food, getting fuel, and a couple of guys hauling a nice old Honda motorcycle over the remnants of the wall into Gaza. One family was all dressed up, just walking around, enjoying being free for a while.

It looked great!

Yes, I'm sure it did. I don't really think anyone enjoys seeing innocent civilians suffer.

[Don Corleone]

And all I know is:

1) Hamas has admitted they played up the blackout/crackdown aspects http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

and 2) More rockets landed in Israel from Gaza today.



Sorry, unlike you, I don't feel like smiling.

[Beirut]

And all I know is:

1) Hamas has admitted they played up the blackout/crackdown aspects http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satelli...cle%2FShowFull

and 2) More rockets landed in Israel from Gaza today.

Sorry, unlike you, I don't feel like smiling.

If we're going to start exchanging photo albums of attrocities, this is going to be a long thread. I can dig up hundreds that show the Israelis being, shall we say, less than diplomatic with their Palestinian neighbours.

[Geoffrey S]

[quotes]
Consider that there are reports of Palestinians tending Olive trees that there ancestors planted and that some of these tress are dying from old age, methinks they may be firmly rooted to their land.

Clever. It might have been more useful if I'd been arguing that the Palestinians don't have a right to the land, which I wasn't.

Why should the Palestinian people take the hit when Britain promises and gives what it doesn't own?

They took the hit, just as an incredible amount of other people(s) did in the postcolonial period. The Israelis aren't going to move anytime soon; deal with it. You might notice that the more successful Third World areas are those that moved on from their past rather than engage in a futile rage in which civilians lose the most.

And as I pointed out earlier, the blame for the shoddy condition of Palestinians is certainly not solely at the doorstep of Israel. The humanitarian crisis has been prolonged, exacerbated and in many ways caused by the actions of surrounding Arab nations who over the decennia have quite cheerfully used the situation for the own (internal) political gains.

I might also add, I think similar accusations apply to a lot of the motives of foreign backers of Israel.

Edit: Xiahou, sounds like a plan. Build up the wall again and keep them with their supportive Arab brothers.

[Rodion Romanovich]

'Their land'? Why any more so than third-generation Israelis living there now? Whatever it was sixty years ago, it's not theirs now.

vs

Consider that there are reports of Palestinians tending Olive trees that there ancestors planted and that some of these tress are dying from old age, methinks they may be firmly rooted to their land.

How about a third option: giving Rome/Latium to either the Palestinians or Israelis? The romans have been the major cause of anti-semitism since the roman era (being partially or indirectly involved in almost every single instance of persecution up to the 19th century), they have never been punished for it, and never attempted to repair the damages they caused. I think there's greater chances of forming a successful new state out of nothing in a place where there is a casus belli against the current holders of it, than where it is currently located. This is a struggle between two parties where both have (also from an outside objective point of view) very good reasons to kill the other party, and with both sides having very good reasons to refuse to ever give up. Such a conflict is both impossible to mediate in and impossible to end, no matter how much support is given to either or both parties. Choosing to support either is about as objective as choosing which football team to support in the leagues. Both sides aruge that the other is demonic because of their choice of weapons to fight with, rather than because of the moral substance of their actions, which is quite equal (or else, one side would eventually accept surrendering, as demonisation of an opponent stops working when you realize you are worse AND have suffered greatly - the latter has already happened, the former not). Not to mention that neither side can tolerate being economically weaker than the other after a peace treaty, since they can't trust each other after so many years of fighting, and thus have a very difficult chance of living peacefully next to each other forever, even if peace would come - a bad peace unacceptable to either side would be followed by new war. Neither side could trust a 3rd party neutral peace keeping force from the UN either, since all so-called neutral parties have always supported one side slightly more than the other. The borders are also hard to defend, the terrain favors offense and preemptive striking over defense, making war more likely if trust can not be established. The involvement of the rest of the world is also absurd - both sides get huge sums of money to keep creating more weapons to slaughter each other: a Nash equilibrium putting us back at the same result as if neither side was supported in relative measures, but with more weaponry and death on both sides in absolute measures. That little piece of dirty soil is not worth risking a world war over, not to mention how many neutrals and outside parties that have already been killed by both sides for saying "the wrong things", not to mention the civilians on both sides that die every week. Only way to end the conflict is to find another piece of land for either side, land which is acceptable to the one who receives it, and there's a good excuse to take it from the current holder. Would be nice to see anyone with sufficient power having the guts to do the right thing. As it is now, all who are involved in the conflict are put under too heavy stress to think clearly, and all serious neutral parties trying to mediate have been murdered because on both sides there are smaller militant organizations who don't want peace. Perhaps time to put up an ultimatum, or do as good old Solomon and the baby...

[Somebody Else]

Jailbreak in Gaza

Does that mean that they're criminals?

[HoreTore]

Does that mean that they're criminals?

Don't have to be criminal to end up in jail