Jailbreak in Gaza

[Beirut]

I never said you advocate Hamas's exterminate all Jews policy. I said you've never offered an alternative, just that you agree with their conclusions. I've offered a 2-state solution as a compromise, and you've rejected it. You seem quite fixed on the idea that Jews must leave Israel.

I think the founding of Isreal where a population already lived was criminal. No bones about that. But I have said in the past, more than once, that since they're there, they're there, and they're going to stay there.

A two state solution is the way. I've said that before as well. But that means an independant Palestine, not a slave state permanently under the Israeli yoke and gun, which is what Israel wants.

You seem quite fixed on the idea that Jews must leave Israel.

You'll be hard pressd to find where I ever said that either.

Where, according to superior powers of logic, should they go?

Superior powers of logic? Arf! I think we'd need AdrianII in here for that.

[woad&fangs]

This will never get solved by politics. This ends when the country's youth look at each other and judge, not on the other persons religion, but on the content of each others character.* If the Palestinians are Ghettoed inside a wall(that bitter taste in your mouth is called hypocrisy. The remedy is to apologize and to tear down the wall) than the Israelis will see rockets instead of the people behind the wall. Rockets don't create friendships, people do.


*I'm on a MLK Jr. binge right now. Plus, Isreal could really benefit from a King Jr. like figure right now.

[x-dANGEr]

To the first, quite happily. Big mess all around largely caused by the Brits taking over, and the later Israelis capitalized on a situation in which the area was basically up for grabs.

Why should the Palestinian people take the hit when Britain promises and gives what it doesn't own?

[seireikhaan]

Don, are you telling me that depriving Palestinians of fuel and food is somehow going to deter attacks by radicals? You think sanctions which starve a populace is somehow going to make the average person LIKE Israel more, and thus diminish terrorist threats? Or do you think that getting revenge is more important than actually working towards peace?

[Don Corleone]

Gaza is an independentally controlled area. It's Palestine, if you're looking for a Res Publica to assign it to. Israel has no control there. What Israel has done is establish a wall where no weapons will pass from Egypt to Gaza. Sooner or later, when your neighbor continues to shell you, you try to limit his access to weaponry.

But if anybody read the link I posted (and for the record, don't let the name fool you, the Jerusalem Post is no Olmert apologist), Hamas has decreed as long as shipments are inspected, they'll consider that a boycott and no goods will be allowed.

This is, for lack of a better word, a self-inflicted 'famine', blamed on who else? Those filthy Jews, yet again.

[Beirut]

Gaza is an independentally controlled area. It's Palestine, if you're looking for a Res Publica to assign it to. Israel has no control there. What Israel has done is establish a wall where no weapons will pass from Egypt to Gaza. Sooner or later, when your neighbor continues to shell you, you try to limit his access to weaponry.

Israel has built a wall to control the people. Period. They want the Palestinians subjegated. Anything less is unacceptable. If the Palestinians "go free", it will show that Israel has been repressing an entire people for generations. Keep them locked up, keep them looking and acting like savages, then they can brutalize them at will and save face with the excuse of, "Oh, but they want to kill us all. Poor, poor us!"

This is, for lack of a better word, a self-inflicted 'famine', blamed on who else? Those filthy Jews, yet again.

A self-inflicted famine?

That's as extraordinary a statement as I have seen in my five-years at the Org.

And would you please stop calling them filthy Jews. The three kindest, gentlest, most humane people I have ever known were all Jewish, and none of them were filthy in any way.

[seireikhaan]

Gaza is an independentally controlled area. It's Palestine, if you're looking for a Res Publica to assign it to. Israel has no control there. What Israel has done is establish a wall where no weapons will pass from Egypt to Gaza. Sooner or later, when your neighbor continues to shell you, you try to limit his access to weaponry.

But if anybody read the link I posted (and for the record, don't let the name fool you, the Jerusalem Post is no Olmert apologist), Hamas has decreed as long as shipments are inspected, they'll consider that a boycott and no goods will be allowed.

This is, for lack of a better word, a self-inflicted 'famine', blamed on who else? Those filthy Jews, yet again.

Hmm? Did YOU read the article? A) I'm not sure I trust the Jerusalem post on an issue regarding Palestinians, B) It never stated ANYWHERE that Hamas inflicted any kind of famine on the people, only blackouts, and C) ITS HAMAS' JOB TO HELP THE PEOPLE THERE! OF COURSE HE'S GOING TO WANT THE SANCTIONS LIFTED, PEOPLE ARE GOING WITHOUT FREAKIN' FOOD, WATER, AND GASOLINE! Would you not expect your own regional leader to stand up for you if you were in the Palestinian position? And before you even go on about Hamas not being elected, how far do you think he'd get if he didn't get support from the populace?

[Xiahou]

Sounds like problem solved then. Egypt can surely take care of the oppressed Palestinians that they care so deeply about and with Gaza being abandoned, there will be no one to bother the Israelis. That was easy- should've done it decades ago.

[Geoffrey S]

[quotes]
Consider that there are reports of Palestinians tending Olive trees that there ancestors planted and that some of these tress are dying from old age, methinks they may be firmly rooted to their land.

Clever. It might have been more useful if I'd been arguing that the Palestinians don't have a right to the land, which I wasn't.

Why should the Palestinian people take the hit when Britain promises and gives what it doesn't own?

They took the hit, just as an incredible amount of other people(s) did in the postcolonial period. The Israelis aren't going to move anytime soon; deal with it. You might notice that the more successful Third World areas are those that moved on from their past rather than engage in a futile rage in which civilians lose the most.

And as I pointed out earlier, the blame for the shoddy condition of Palestinians is certainly not solely at the doorstep of Israel. The humanitarian crisis has been prolonged, exacerbated and in many ways caused by the actions of surrounding Arab nations who over the decennia have quite cheerfully used the situation for the own (internal) political gains.

I might also add, I think similar accusations apply to a lot of the motives of foreign backers of Israel.

Edit: Xiahou, sounds like a plan. Build up the wall again and keep them with their supportive Arab brothers.

[Beirut]

Sounds like problem solved then. Egypt can surely take care of the oppressed Palestinians that they care so deeply about and with Gaza being abandoned, there will be no one to bother the Israelis. That was easy- should've done it decades ago.

Egypt should help the Palestinians. So should every Arab country. It is shameful that the Arabs left the Palestinians to suffer under the Israelis for so long just to use them for political gain. With all that oil money they have, the Arabs (Iran as well) should be building schools and hospitals in Gaza by the dozens. Granted, the Israelis will blow them up as soon as they're built, but at least building them is a good start.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Israel has built a wall to control the people. Period. They want the Palestinians subjegated. Anything less is unacceptable. If the Palestinians "go free", it will show that Israel has been repressing an entire people for generations. Keep them locked up, keep them looking and acting like savages, then they can brutalize them at will and save face with the excuse of, "Oh, but they want to kill us all. Poor, poor us!"

Geez, Beirut. Do you really think all that BS is real?

They built the wall to stop the Palestinians from sending suicide bombers into Israel. And guess what - it works. What have Hamas and Fatah done after the recent unilateral concessions by Israel? Continued the terrorism. What makes you think they'll stop before they kill all the Israelis? If they had the power Israel had over Palestine, they'd kill every Israeli.

And would you please stop calling them filthy Jews.

How nice of you only to slander Israelis as pure evil.

CR

[seireikhaan]

How nice of you only to slander Israelis as pure evil.

CR

How nice of you to only slander Palestinians as pure evil.

KK

[Crazed Rabbit]

@kk

Anyways, for you 'poor palestinians, they just want their land back', you are arguing an near exact example of a logical fallacy:

Jane: "Did you hear about those terrorists killing those poor people? That sort of killing is just wrong."
Sue: "Those terrorists are justified. After all, their land was taken from them. It is morally right for them to do what they do."
Jane: "Even when they blow up busloads of children?"
Sue: "Yes."

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...e-a-right.html



CR

[Fragony]

Ah wall? omghowcouldthey

[Husar]

Poor wall.

[Rodion Romanovich]

'Their land'? Why any more so than third-generation Israelis living there now? Whatever it was sixty years ago, it's not theirs now.

vs

Consider that there are reports of Palestinians tending Olive trees that there ancestors planted and that some of these tress are dying from old age, methinks they may be firmly rooted to their land.

How about a third option: giving Rome/Latium to either the Palestinians or Israelis? The romans have been the major cause of anti-semitism since the roman era (being partially or indirectly involved in almost every single instance of persecution up to the 19th century), they have never been punished for it, and never attempted to repair the damages they caused. I think there's greater chances of forming a successful new state out of nothing in a place where there is a casus belli against the current holders of it, than where it is currently located. This is a struggle between two parties where both have (also from an outside objective point of view) very good reasons to kill the other party, and with both sides having very good reasons to refuse to ever give up. Such a conflict is both impossible to mediate in and impossible to end, no matter how much support is given to either or both parties. Choosing to support either is about as objective as choosing which football team to support in the leagues. Both sides aruge that the other is demonic because of their choice of weapons to fight with, rather than because of the moral substance of their actions, which is quite equal (or else, one side would eventually accept surrendering, as demonisation of an opponent stops working when you realize you are worse AND have suffered greatly - the latter has already happened, the former not). Not to mention that neither side can tolerate being economically weaker than the other after a peace treaty, since they can't trust each other after so many years of fighting, and thus have a very difficult chance of living peacefully next to each other forever, even if peace would come - a bad peace unacceptable to either side would be followed by new war. Neither side could trust a 3rd party neutral peace keeping force from the UN either, since all so-called neutral parties have always supported one side slightly more than the other. The borders are also hard to defend, the terrain favors offense and preemptive striking over defense, making war more likely if trust can not be established. The involvement of the rest of the world is also absurd - both sides get huge sums of money to keep creating more weapons to slaughter each other: a Nash equilibrium putting us back at the same result as if neither side was supported in relative measures, but with more weaponry and death on both sides in absolute measures. That little piece of dirty soil is not worth risking a world war over, not to mention how many neutrals and outside parties that have already been killed by both sides for saying "the wrong things", not to mention the civilians on both sides that die every week. Only way to end the conflict is to find another piece of land for either side, land which is acceptable to the one who receives it, and there's a good excuse to take it from the current holder. Would be nice to see anyone with sufficient power having the guts to do the right thing. As it is now, all who are involved in the conflict are put under too heavy stress to think clearly, and all serious neutral parties trying to mediate have been murdered because on both sides there are smaller militant organizations who don't want peace. Perhaps time to put up an ultimatum, or do as good old Solomon and the baby...

[Somebody Else]

Jailbreak in Gaza

Does that mean that they're criminals?

[HoreTore]

That its their persistence in attempted genocide that has led to their current state?

So......

In other words, you mean that a crime made by the few justifies the punishment of the many?

If one guy commits murder, it's OK to jail 15 people?

[HoreTore]

Does that mean that they're criminals?

Don't have to be criminal to end up in jail

[Geoffrey S]

And as always Israelis become [insert adjective] Jews, murdering suicide bombers become freedom fighters, a debate becomes a series of disconnected attempts at justifying murder on either side, and I become rather bored...

[Paradox]

I'm glad Hosni Mubarak isn't being an ass about it this time, helping the Palestinians is something that not even our lazy middle-eastern governments care about.

[Husar]

And as always Israelis become [insert adjective] Jews, murdering suicide bombers become freedom fighters, a debate becomes a series of disconnected attempts at justifying murder on either side, and I become rather bored...

Why do you hate freedom?
Is that an attempt to stifle free speech? Are we here to entertain you?

That said, I do think the Palestinians have every right in the world to bomb Israel into the Pacific ocean and after that they have every right to take revenge on the UK who put the Israelis there in the first place, then they should nuke the US for supporting the UK and Israel, then Europe for trading with both and if they still feel a bit sad afterwards they can kill every Asian because they sold everybody their cheap goods. If that doesn't make up for their suffering I'd have to say that they're quite demanding but since I wouldn't exist anymore at that point, I won't have to think about that.

[seireikhaan]

@kk

Anyways, for you 'poor palestinians, they just want their land back', you are arguing an near exact example of a logical fallacy:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...e-a-right.html



CR

Hmm, yes. Now I think I understand your position if you're Israel.

"CR, sir, we've news that Hamas rebels have fired rockets into Israeli territory and killed eight of our citizens. What do we do?

"Well, its obvious, isn't it? We're going to carpet bomb the area they may have come from and kill about 50 or so Palestinians. Then build an extension of the wall over where a bunch of houses used to be. Oh, and just to make sure they hate us nice and good and can get plenty of sympathizers who'll join Hamas, lets put some sanctions on them so we can starve the rest of them so they have no food or water or gas. That'll teach 'em nice and good to not mess with us!"



CR, perhaps you haven't heard, but, believe it or not, the vast majority of Palestinians are just mostly regular people, trying to support their families and earn a decent living. Amazingly enough, they aren't all foaming at the mouth, crazed, trying for a mass extinction of Israel. Yes, there are some crazies, but all Israel's heavy handed policies do is give those crazies more ammo to work with and turn more and more of moderate muslims against them.

[Fragony]

CR, perhaps you haven't heard, but, believe it or not, the vast majority of Palestinians are just mostly regular people, trying to support their families and earn a decent living. Amazingly enough, they aren't all foaming at the mouth, crazed, trying for a mass extinction of Israel. Yes, there are some crazies, but all Israel's heavy handed policies do is give those crazies more ammo to work with and turn more and more of moderate muslims against them.

Who would have thought, well let me present my masterplan for peace, stop backing Hamas and stop firing firecrackers. chopchop hadihadi nobelprice for peace don't have to wrap it up I'll just take it like that.

[Andres]

There is no justification for any type of attrocity commited to human beings. It's as simple as that. Instead of every party involved in the conflict claiming to have some sort of moral justification for their despicable behavior, it would be better if all would just stop their madness.

Guess that's too much to ask, eh

Stupid, naive Andres who still believes in goodness and simple solutions

[Husar]

Why do you want to tell other people how to live their life, Andres?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

On a serious note, you're right.

[Beirut]

Geez, Beirut. Do you really think all that BS is real?

I absolutely believe that the Isreali government see it as in their own best interests to keep the Palestinians a subjegated people.

They built the wall to stop the Palestinians from sending suicide bombers into Israel. And guess what - it works. What have Hamas and Fatah done after the recent unilateral concessions by Israel? Continued the terrorism. What makes you think they'll stop before they kill all the Israelis? If they had the power Israel had over Palestine, they'd kill every Israeli.

No, they built the wall to stop the Palestinians from going into Egypt. If you're speaking about the other wall they built, they built that to keep out attackers and to steal parts of the West Bank.

By the by, what is this ongoing illusion some people have about "The death of every living Jew!" whenever someone talks about the Palestinans having rights? Israel is a military superpower. They have nuclear weapons. They have a world class air force. They have access to the top tiers of military and spy technology. They are masters at infiltration, espionage, psychological warfare, assasination, interrogation (Hello? Torture?), and for the past few decades have had an American Express card with a $30 billion limit and no monthly payments.

All this, and if Joe Palestine, who lives in a bombed out building with no electricity or water is free to go for a walk with his kids in Egypt and buy some ice cream, it's the death of Isreal? C'mon.

How nice of you only to slander Israelis as pure evil.

I thought it was pretty big of me.

[HoreTore]

Why do people mix "israelis" together with "israeli government"?

[Fragony]

I absolutely believe that the Isreali government see it as in their own best interests to keep the Palestinians a subjegated people.

That is true, and it is even more true for their arab 'brothers'.

[LittleGrizzly]

Anyways, for you 'poor palestinians, they just want their land back', you are arguing an near exact example of a logical fallacy

do you not see the irony here ?

The isrealis subscribe as much to this as the palestinians.

one for you 'poor isrealis they're just defending themselves' you are arguing an near exact example of a logical fallacy

http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...e-a-right.html

Theres not much morale high ground for either side to claim the one thing i will say is that Isreal as a country can control its actions things like building the wall bombing palestinians is all done from the top down in an organised command, The Palestinians are much less organised and in control of thier activities.

for example in recent times in Ireland with the peace deals trying to deal with the IRA was difficult, even if the leaders of the IRA wanted to halt terrorist activities they couldn't keep everyone in line, most recent example being the bank robbery not long ago this is after the IRA supposedly gave up criminal activities years ago. But the British goverment had to be above this, we could have turned time back 20 years and say look they're doing this, this and this so we have to defend ourselves, but goverments must be held to a higher standard than terrorist organisations.

i do realise hamas is a goverment (technically) but they're army and such like come from thier terrorist group rather than thier goverment.