Jailbreak in Gaza

[Fragony]

CR, perhaps you haven't heard, but, believe it or not, the vast majority of Palestinians are just mostly regular people, trying to support their families and earn a decent living. Amazingly enough, they aren't all foaming at the mouth, crazed, trying for a mass extinction of Israel. Yes, there are some crazies, but all Israel's heavy handed policies do is give those crazies more ammo to work with and turn more and more of moderate muslims against them.

Who would have thought, well let me present my masterplan for peace, stop backing Hamas and stop firing firecrackers. chopchop hadihadi nobelprice for peace don't have to wrap it up I'll just take it like that.

[Andres]

There is no justification for any type of attrocity commited to human beings. It's as simple as that. Instead of every party involved in the conflict claiming to have some sort of moral justification for their despicable behavior, it would be better if all would just stop their madness.

Guess that's too much to ask, eh

Stupid, naive Andres who still believes in goodness and simple solutions

[Husar]

Why do you want to tell other people how to live their life, Andres?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

On a serious note, you're right.

[caravel]

The simple facts remain: It's the Palestinians land, whether "Palestine" exists or not. The Palestinians are under illegal occupation by people that are technically immigrants, this is why they have the right to rebel. The terrorism is a different thing to the rebellion against the occupation. The terrorism exists as a direct result of the founding of the Israeli state, the occupation and brutal crushing of rebellion. Terrorism doesn't just appear out of thin air and most western countries seem to have very little understanding of it's causes as most are not exposed to it. Few western countries have suffered in the way that Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan have, so unless you're from one of these countries you're unlikely to understand as to why people become terrorists. These countries were pretty much terrorist free until the west got involved and started invading and dropping bombs.

[Fragony]

Well I am not a friend of the palestinian people, I am too old for imaginary friends the palestinians don't exist they are arabs who migrated there. Nobody owes them anything at all. If people care so much go to Iran where millions of arabs are being deported and live in much worse conditions, this is peanuts. I have zero sympathy for either side, but I absolutily detest everyone who wants to make a point out of it.

[Andres]

The simple facts remain: It's the Palestinians land, whether "Palestine" exists or not. The Palestinians are under illegal occupation by people that are technically immigrants, this is why they have the right to rebel. The terrorism is a different thing to the rebellion against the occupation. The terrorism exists as a direct result of the founding of the Israeli state, the occupation and brutal crushing of rebellion. Terrorism doesn't just appear out of thin air and most western countries seem to have very little understanding of it's causes as most are not exposed to it. Few western countries have suffered in the way that Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan have, so unless you're from one of these countries you're unlikely to understand as to why people become terrorists. These countries were pretty much terrorist free until the west got involved and started invading and dropping bombs.

Do you believe there exists a justification for, let's say, letting explode a bus filled with people, children included?

To make things clear: I don't think either site in this conflict is "right" or "wrong", they have both done despicable things.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Do you believe there exists a justification for, let's say, letting explode a bus filled with people, children included?

To make things clear: I don't think either site in this conflict is "right" or "wrong", they have both done despicable things.

Think about it like this.

Guy A is on top of a hill. guy B walks up next to him. Guy A says hi to guy B. Guy B then throws him off of the top of the hill and plants a flag stating that the top of the hill belongs to guy B - not guy A because he never planted a flag. When guy A protests, guy B starts moving down the hill and hitting guy A. Guy B goes ballistic. From the bottom of the hill, guy A starts throwing rocks at guy B. Guy B shoots guy A. Guy A shoots guy B. Back and Forth.

World Policeman comes over and tells guy A and guy B that they are being ridiculous. World Policeman tells Guy B that guy A has a right to stand in peace at the bottom of the hill without being shot. World policeman tells guy A that guy B has the right to stand at the top of the Hill without being shot because guy B has been through alot and his ancestors stood there 2,000 years ago. Guy A protests, saying that it his ancestors stood there for 2000 years and that he was recently thrown off of the top of the hill and punched and kicked.

But world policeman didn't hear Guy A because he was too busy listening to his police radio.

Years and years have gone by. Guy A and guy B both have sons and they are still at it. But now, guys B have bigger guns and guys A are covered in dirt and starving..

[Andres]

Think about it like this.

Guy A is on top of a hill. guy B walks up next to him. Guy A says hi to guy B. Guy B then throws him off of the top of the hill and plants a flag stating that the top of the hill belongs to guy B - not guy A because he never planted a flag. When guy A protests, guy B starts moving down the hill and hitting guy A. Guy B goes ballistic. From the bottom of the hill, guy A starts throwing rocks at guy B. Guy B shoots guy A. Guy A shoots guy B. Back and Forth.

World Policeman comes over and tells guy A and guy B that they are being ridiculous. World Policeman tells Guy B that guy A has a right to stand in peace at the bottom of the hill without being shot. World policeman tells guy A that guy B has the right to stand at the top of the Hill without being shot because guy B has been through alot and his ancestors stood there 2,000 years ago. Guy A protests, saying that it his ancestors stood there for 2000 years and that he was recently thrown off of the top of the hill and punched and kicked.

But world policeman didn't hear Guy A because he was too busy listening to his police radio.

Years and years have gone by. Guy A and guy B both have sons and they are still at it. But now, guys B have bigger guns and guys A are covered in dirt and starving..

Is that "yes" or "no" ?

[Fragony]

Guy B is still alive though, and so is guy A for some reason that defies all logic. I wonder how it would be if it was the other way around. Pitytude fits palestinians like a glove must be comforting in way to be without any prospects nothing like a bit of fatalism.

[LittleGrizzly]

the palestinians don't exist they are arabs who migrated there

like the anglo saxons who migrated to the bit of land to the north west of europe and insist on calling it britian

[Fragony]

like the anglo saxons who migrated to the bit of land to the north west of europe and insist on calling it britian

Well they went and insist on calling in Palestina but forgot they are with too many to make their precious little desert sustainable. Let's go oldschool, working land, raising cattle, pretty basic things. Never could it work, and it never did most came later. If they want a state they should be able actually be a state, but that would mean have a nice starvation, a little modesty would be splendid.

[Paradox]

the palestinians don't exist they are arabs who migrated there

like the anglo saxons who migrated to the bit of land to the north west of europe and insist on calling it britian

You're my hero.

IIRC, those Jews you were talking about, caravel, were in fact Arabs. In Islam, prophet Muhammed kicked the Jews out of Medina to where modern-day Palestine and Syria were, and they settled there. They were rich Arab families who lived peacefully with Muslims at one point. Let's say this war isn't mainly focusing on religion, but the nations themselves, whom did Palestine originally belong to? Arabs? Jews? BOTH! It's just that Isreal were excluded I guess.

This isn't really my field, so I think I've said enough as I don't know much about these subjects.

[caravel]

Do you believe there exists a justification for, let's say, letting explode a bus filled with people, children included?

To make things clear: I don't think either site in this conflict is "right" or "wrong", they have both done despicable things.

No I don't think there ever is a justification for killing any civilians either through terrorist attacks of any kind or through bombings/rocket attacks as Israel has done in the past in built up civilian areas while trying to take out terrorist leaders.

Hate breeds hate, and this is the problem here. This kind of terrorism gets itself ingrained into the culture and has be pulled out from the roots. The more Israel retaliate and attack the more hatred that is generated and the more young men (and young women) joining the ranks of the terrorist groups.

This problem will never be solved in any other way except through determined diplomacy, all past efforts have fizzled out when Israel have lost patience. Some kind of settlement has to be found. This should take the form of a seperate internationally recognised Palestinian state (whether they're capable to run it or farm it or whatever is not the issue, but they need their own state). There will always be rotten elements within the Palestinian state that will push for return to the old ways. Israel has always been ready to use these incidents as a pretext to reinvade Palestinian areas and renew hostilities. The old claim that the Palestinian Authority is not doing enough to contain the extremists and terrorists is recycled again and again.

Vis a vis the idea that 'The Palestinians are being punished for the crimes of a few' - it is the Palestinians that elected Hamas, who's goal is to destroy Israel.

A flawed argument, as in desperate times equally desperate people will vote for the extremes. Also it was not all of the Palestinians that voted for Hamas in the same way that all Americans did not vote for Bush.