Jailbreak in Gaza

[Beirut]

That is true, and it is even more true for their arab 'brothers'.

Agreed. The Palestinians have precious few friends anywhere.

But I'm one of them.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I agree. The Israelis treat the Palestinians like garbage. They took their land. They then took more land. Then they stated settling more land and set up outposts with armed citizens. They treat the Palestinians like wild animals.

Just like the British treated the Irish. I am very sympathetic with the Palestinians. The idea that we (The U.S.) support a country that excludes people based on their Religion is absurd.

It is safe to say that I would break out of the imposed prison if I couldn't buy food.

I'm a friend of the Palestinians also. Just like I supported the I.R.A. (until diplomacy started to work). Diplomacy doesn't work with Israel.

[caravel]

The simple facts remain: It's the Palestinians land, whether "Palestine" exists or not. The Palestinians are under illegal occupation by people that are technically immigrants, this is why they have the right to rebel. The terrorism is a different thing to the rebellion against the occupation. The terrorism exists as a direct result of the founding of the Israeli state, the occupation and brutal crushing of rebellion. Terrorism doesn't just appear out of thin air and most western countries seem to have very little understanding of it's causes as most are not exposed to it. Few western countries have suffered in the way that Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan have, so unless you're from one of these countries you're unlikely to understand as to why people become terrorists. These countries were pretty much terrorist free until the west got involved and started invading and dropping bombs.

[Fragony]

Well I am not a friend of the palestinian people, I am too old for imaginary friends the palestinians don't exist they are arabs who migrated there. Nobody owes them anything at all. If people care so much go to Iran where millions of arabs are being deported and live in much worse conditions, this is peanuts. I have zero sympathy for either side, but I absolutily detest everyone who wants to make a point out of it.

[Andres]

The simple facts remain: It's the Palestinians land, whether "Palestine" exists or not. The Palestinians are under illegal occupation by people that are technically immigrants, this is why they have the right to rebel. The terrorism is a different thing to the rebellion against the occupation. The terrorism exists as a direct result of the founding of the Israeli state, the occupation and brutal crushing of rebellion. Terrorism doesn't just appear out of thin air and most western countries seem to have very little understanding of it's causes as most are not exposed to it. Few western countries have suffered in the way that Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan have, so unless you're from one of these countries you're unlikely to understand as to why people become terrorists. These countries were pretty much terrorist free until the west got involved and started invading and dropping bombs.

Do you believe there exists a justification for, let's say, letting explode a bus filled with people, children included?

To make things clear: I don't think either site in this conflict is "right" or "wrong", they have both done despicable things.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Do you believe there exists a justification for, let's say, letting explode a bus filled with people, children included?

To make things clear: I don't think either site in this conflict is "right" or "wrong", they have both done despicable things.

Think about it like this.

Guy A is on top of a hill. guy B walks up next to him. Guy A says hi to guy B. Guy B then throws him off of the top of the hill and plants a flag stating that the top of the hill belongs to guy B - not guy A because he never planted a flag. When guy A protests, guy B starts moving down the hill and hitting guy A. Guy B goes ballistic. From the bottom of the hill, guy A starts throwing rocks at guy B. Guy B shoots guy A. Guy A shoots guy B. Back and Forth.

World Policeman comes over and tells guy A and guy B that they are being ridiculous. World Policeman tells Guy B that guy A has a right to stand in peace at the bottom of the hill without being shot. World policeman tells guy A that guy B has the right to stand at the top of the Hill without being shot because guy B has been through alot and his ancestors stood there 2,000 years ago. Guy A protests, saying that it his ancestors stood there for 2000 years and that he was recently thrown off of the top of the hill and punched and kicked.

But world policeman didn't hear Guy A because he was too busy listening to his police radio.

Years and years have gone by. Guy A and guy B both have sons and they are still at it. But now, guys B have bigger guns and guys A are covered in dirt and starving..

[LittleGrizzly]

the palestinians don't exist they are arabs who migrated there

like the anglo saxons who migrated to the bit of land to the north west of europe and insist on calling it britian

[Andres]

Think about it like this.

Guy A is on top of a hill. guy B walks up next to him. Guy A says hi to guy B. Guy B then throws him off of the top of the hill and plants a flag stating that the top of the hill belongs to guy B - not guy A because he never planted a flag. When guy A protests, guy B starts moving down the hill and hitting guy A. Guy B goes ballistic. From the bottom of the hill, guy A starts throwing rocks at guy B. Guy B shoots guy A. Guy A shoots guy B. Back and Forth.

World Policeman comes over and tells guy A and guy B that they are being ridiculous. World Policeman tells Guy B that guy A has a right to stand in peace at the bottom of the hill without being shot. World policeman tells guy A that guy B has the right to stand at the top of the Hill without being shot because guy B has been through alot and his ancestors stood there 2,000 years ago. Guy A protests, saying that it his ancestors stood there for 2000 years and that he was recently thrown off of the top of the hill and punched and kicked.

But world policeman didn't hear Guy A because he was too busy listening to his police radio.

Years and years have gone by. Guy A and guy B both have sons and they are still at it. But now, guys B have bigger guns and guys A are covered in dirt and starving..

Is that "yes" or "no" ?

[Fragony]

Guy B is still alive though, and so is guy A for some reason that defies all logic. I wonder how it would be if it was the other way around. Pitytude fits palestinians like a glove must be comforting in way to be without any prospects nothing like a bit of fatalism.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Is that "yes" or "no" ?

It didn't make sense? damn.

Yes I support the Palestinians and the children of the Israelis who robbed them of their land.

[Fragony]

like the anglo saxons who migrated to the bit of land to the north west of europe and insist on calling it britian

Well they went and insist on calling in Palestina but forgot they are with too many to make their precious little desert sustainable. Let's go oldschool, working land, raising cattle, pretty basic things. Never could it work, and it never did most came later. If they want a state they should be able actually be a state, but that would mean have a nice starvation, a little modesty would be splendid.

[LittleGrizzly]

I wonder how it would be if it was the other way around.

So you wonder how it would be if palestinians had the best land, most of the water, some powerful friends and one the best armys in the world, well lets think on that shall we ?

They wouldn't be anywhere near as angry im sure, full stomach, clean water and a warm bed. Control of thier own destiny lots of people seem to get angry about this one.

So the shoes on the other foot the palestinians have almost everything and the isrealis have nothing, so whats going to happen ? well nothing, they have everything! you only get these extremists wanting thier extermination because they have nothing, some well fed palestinian with a nice job, family and a house isn't going to be intrested in suicide bombing, take away all his prospects and you'd have a person capable of much worse actions

[Fragony]

So you wonder how it would be if palestinians had the best land, most of the water, some powerful friends and one the best armys in the world, well lets think on that shall we ?

We don't have to think about it because they did have that, quite the badboy that Nasser guy and his bouncing allies. Gambled and lost, not going to feel sorry for them, who pity's Germany after all. So now we will have to keep feeding them because their arab friends that care so deeply about them won't, any state they get will be no more then a zoo.

[LittleGrizzly]

We don't have to think about it because they did have that, quite the badboy that Nasser guy and his bouncing allies. Gambled and lost, not going to feel sorry for them, who pity's Germany after all. So now we will have to keep feeding them because their arab friends that care so deeply about them won't, any state they get will be no more then a zoo.

you seem to be talking about the arab-isreal war, this is not what i was reffering to.

you said I wonder how it would be if it was the other way around.

which i assumed meant the current situation in reversal rather than the situation some 30 odd years ago. and i'd like to point out that that was arab states rather than palestinians, though palestinians joined up with the invasion AFAIK.

In the current situation reversed i don't think the palestinians would do anything different from the israelis

[Fragony]

Well then there wouldn't be any jews in current Israel.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Vis a vis the idea that 'The Palestinians are being punished for the crimes of a few' - it is the Palestinians that elected Hamas, who's goal is to destroy Israel.

It's not a few crazy people launching the rockets into Israel. It is the government the Palestinians chose for themselves. The terrorists are the government.

Israel didn't 'steal' land from the Palestinians; they bought it and Israel was one country out of several formed from the ruins of the Ottoman Empire.

The Palestinians have systematically violated the agreements they have reached with Israel. They started this current cycle of violence.

Has Israel done wrong - certainly. But Hamas and Fatah could choose peace, and they do not.

CR

[Ice]

And as always Israelis become [insert adjective] Jews, murdering suicide bombers become freedom fighters, a debate becomes a series of disconnected attempts at justifying murder on either side, and I become rather bored...

Indeed.

We seem to be seeing eye to on this.

I keep wanting to post replies to both sides on this, but I just stop myself and decide it's really not worth the aggravation.

[caravel]

Do you believe there exists a justification for, let's say, letting explode a bus filled with people, children included?

To make things clear: I don't think either site in this conflict is "right" or "wrong", they have both done despicable things.

No I don't think there ever is a justification for killing any civilians either through terrorist attacks of any kind or through bombings/rocket attacks as Israel has done in the past in built up civilian areas while trying to take out terrorist leaders.

Hate breeds hate, and this is the problem here. This kind of terrorism gets itself ingrained into the culture and has be pulled out from the roots. The more Israel retaliate and attack the more hatred that is generated and the more young men (and young women) joining the ranks of the terrorist groups.

This problem will never be solved in any other way except through determined diplomacy, all past efforts have fizzled out when Israel have lost patience. Some kind of settlement has to be found. This should take the form of a seperate internationally recognised Palestinian state (whether they're capable to run it or farm it or whatever is not the issue, but they need their own state). There will always be rotten elements within the Palestinian state that will push for return to the old ways. Israel has always been ready to use these incidents as a pretext to reinvade Palestinian areas and renew hostilities. The old claim that the Palestinian Authority is not doing enough to contain the extremists and terrorists is recycled again and again.

Vis a vis the idea that 'The Palestinians are being punished for the crimes of a few' - it is the Palestinians that elected Hamas, who's goal is to destroy Israel.

A flawed argument, as in desperate times equally desperate people will vote for the extremes. Also it was not all of the Palestinians that voted for Hamas in the same way that all Americans did not vote for Bush.

[Vladimir]

Whoever said genocide wasn't the answer is a fool. Kill the side that is less hostile to us.

Since this thread is based on emotion I might as well throw mine in. Given enough time no one will care.

Mind you none of this would have happen if Israel hadn't handed the land back to its "native" inhabitants.

(Last edit) There is no reason here thanks to the opening post.

[doc_bean]

Hamas and the terrorists are still supported by the people since Israel is still trying to expand and colonize Palestine further. The wall is often placed deep within what is officially palestine territory and there are several places entirely within palestine territory that are still occupied. Like Hebron, 400 settlers, 1100 soldiers to guard them.
No wonder the Palestians are still andry and still feel like they are fighting a war.

The Israeli government is imo still supported since they convinced the Israeli people that if they weaken for just the tiniest amount, they will all be killed by angry Arabs. Have you ever seen footage of Israeli soldiers guarding the wall ? Most of the ones I saw looked embarresed to be there. They have to be inhuman towards kids (who are not allowed to go the hospital if their papers aren't perfectly in order, even if they're bleeding half to death), and imo it kills most of them inside. I've heard a mother of a young man who was killed in a suicide attack say that she understands where the hatred from the Palestinians come from.

Both sides feel they have to be strong and tough, both sides support cruel and violent regimes. They have more in common than they'd ever want to admit

[Crazed Rabbit]

Hamas and the terrorists are still supported by the people since Israel is still trying to expand and colonize Palestine further.

Oh, by making unilateral concessions like withdrawing from Gaza?

CR

[FactionHeir]

The question is whether it was a strategic move to withdraw from Gaza or a humanitarian one. I would guess the former.

From my reading, it seems that Israel won't really buck and if the government was to do so, their parliament would prevent such a move eventually by electing another. Let's face it, there are extremists on both sides. In fact, the Israeli (government) will not even let Palestinian refugees to return to their homes because "they would out number us poor Jews and destroy our notion of Jewish state". Well, go figure, drive them off their land and then say they cannot come back because then the occupiers wouldn't be the absolute majority anymore.

Going further, I wonder what would have happened if nations hadn't gone gung-ho blocking Palestine off, cutting aid and supplies after they democratically and in a non-rigged election voted Hamas into power. I imagine if the freedom-loving Western nations had stood by them regardless of their differences, there could be prospects for peace, but unfortunately there are lobbies and certain loud voices that would have caused some to not be re-elected, eh?

[Paradox]

the palestinians don't exist they are arabs who migrated there

like the anglo saxons who migrated to the bit of land to the north west of europe and insist on calling it britian

You're my hero.

IIRC, those Jews you were talking about, caravel, were in fact Arabs. In Islam, prophet Muhammed kicked the Jews out of Medina to where modern-day Palestine and Syria were, and they settled there. They were rich Arab families who lived peacefully with Muslims at one point. Let's say this war isn't mainly focusing on religion, but the nations themselves, whom did Palestine originally belong to? Arabs? Jews? BOTH! It's just that Isreal were excluded I guess.

This isn't really my field, so I think I've said enough as I don't know much about these subjects.

[Tribesman]

Gaza is an independentally controlled area. It's Palestine, if you're looking for a Res Publica to assign it to. Israel has no control there.

Complete bollox Don .
If it is an independantly controlled area it would collect its taxes , it would distribute its government revenue , it would have control over its borders , its security and its resources .
Since it has control over none of those and instead it is Israel that has it , how on earth can you claim that Israel has no control there ?

Oh, by making unilateral concessions like withdrawing from Gaza?

Rubbish rabbit , utter tripe , agreement is what is needed , not one sided unilateral action .
It wasn't a "concession" Israel made , it was an action it took by itself for its own financial benefit .
Patrolling inside the camp and paying Israeli settlers to live there (and providing extra security for those it paid to move there) was too expensive . They decided it was cheaper to move the patrols to the perimeter instead and move the settlers to where they would take less subsidisation .

Israel didn't 'steal' land from the Palestinians; they bought it

They bought very little land Rabbit , but they did buy some , they were also allocated some and also stole some more .
Even now they are still stealing land , the Israeli high court has said so many many times , even last week it ruled again that the ongoing land siezures are illegal .
If you illegally sieze something it means you have stolen it .
If the Israeli courts say it is stealing land then who are you to claim that Israel doesn't steal land ?

[x-dANGEr]

The idea in the Palestinian conflict doesn't really revolve around Jews. It revolves around Israel. Palestinian Jews are more than welcome to stay in what is also their land.

Have you ever been to Palestine? West bank? Gaza? If not, I suggest you go there to understand the amount of aggravation the Palestinian people goes through each day. To try and give the "least" idea: Mahmoud Abbas (A person who I think really is bad) needs a permission from Israeli forces to get out of his residence in Ramallah. Go figure how the rest fare. Ahmad Qrei' was held on an Israeli check point/block for an hour and a half on his way to meet and negotiate with an Israeli counter party. Again, go figure how the rest fare.

More on it, Fateh has been negotiating with Israel diplomatically and on peace basis for 15 years. Go look at what they achieved: More colonies, more land stolen/taken, more settlers, more road blocks, more palestinians captured/prisoned, no palestinians released, more palestinian bodies (citizens) and let's not forget less no authority. And you'd ask why would the people elect Hamas.

[Vladimir]

Another one for your moral relativists out there:

One man's terrorist

http://worldblog.msnbc.msn.com/archi...23/601213.aspx

[caravel]

You're my hero.

IIRC, those Jews you were talking about, caravel, were in fact Arabs. In Islam, prophet Muhammed kicked the Jews out of Medina to where modern-day Palestine and Syria were, and they settled there. They were rich Arab families who lived peacefully with Muslims at one point. Let's say this war isn't mainly focusing on religion, but the nations themselves, whom did Palestine originally belong to? Arabs? Jews? BOTH! It's just that Isreal were excluded I guess.

This isn't really my field, so I think I've said enough as I don't know much about these subjects.

I made no historical references and certainly no references to "jews" so I think you may be misquoting me or referring to the member you had quoted in that post.

[LittleGrizzly]

Vis a vis the idea that 'The Palestinians are being punished for the crimes of a few' - it is the Palestinians that elected Hamas, who's goal is to destroy Israel.

You could say the same of isrealis they elect thier goverment and are punished for the actions of it, Most recent isreali goverments seem to have a goal of destroying palestine doing it bit by bit but they don't state it as thier manifesto, Hamas just seem a bit more honest about it....

The terrorists are the government.

i think that could easily apply to both goverments, at least under the definition of both causing terror.

Has Israel done wrong - certainly. But Hamas and Fatah could choose peace, and they do not.

Fatah have had several attempts at peace talks over the years which didn't work out, blame for that can be put on both sides as they are both unwilling to be reasonable, and the blame for that can be put on the populations of isreal and palestine.

They both need to learn that the response to extremism isn't to be more extreme, they need to elect moderates who want peace not terrorists who revel in it, both sets of leaders have thier own reasons for wanting to continue the conflict but even if both of sets of leaders wanted the peace thier repsective populations parliments ect. would reject it.

They should both be cut off from the world forced to wipe each other out or work together, or maybe just round up the extremists from each side and let them wipe each other out and just leave the reasonable citizens who want peace left.

Incase anyone was wondering the reason i seem to end up on the palestinian side is because the palestinians die more than isrealis, isrealis have job's cars houses a fairly comfortable lifestyle whereas the palestinians are poor, the isrealis have the means to agree a peace (an organised goverment controlling the army ect.) whereas the palestinians are not an organised entity and can't stop the aggression as easily.

Both sides feel they have to be strong and tough, both sides support cruel and violent regimes. They have more in common than they'd ever want to admit

completely agree, what i was trying to say but couldn't think how to put it.

You're my hero.

That's got to go in my signature!

[Beirut]

The terrorists are the government.

When Jewish terrorists who murdered Allied soldiers during WWII became Prime Ministers of Israel (who then complained that the Allies didn't do enough to save the Jews during WWII, figure that one out) they got an American Express card with a $30 billion limit and no monthly payments, unlimited UN support, as well as enough fighter planes, tanks, guns, and bombs to invade Russia twice over

But if the Palestinians have any terrorists in their government, they get "self-inflicted famine" and are left to rot with the women and children in prison camps?

Perhaps the pigs at Animal Farm were right; some are more equal than others.

[Fragony]

Goverments give what terrorists want every day. It's a tiny piece of land and I say they earned it by now. What can they do, Palestina is a very modern weapon it's publicity. If they do nothing they will be labeled as ripe, and if they act they are nazi's. There is nothing you can do the right way there I think.