Unit Stats How to Convert Debate.

[MangyElf]

The other thread didn't get bogged down, it ran out of steam. Since you wanted to pep the topic up I don't see why you couldn't have posted to the existing thread but it's not my call.

Anyway, just a quick comment or two on your alternate methods and their disadvantages.

1. Direct conversion

Disadvantages:

Impossible. There is no direct corellation between WH and TW stats, they are different games with different game mechanics.

However, you can approximate many stats by looking at the reasoning behind them and coming up with a reasonable conversion formula, as or similar to what I already suggested in the pre-existing thread.

2. The converstion equivalent of twinned towns

Disadvantages:

Working with subjective relationships is inefficient. Imagine writing all these subjective, non-formulaic conversions down as a reference material and you'll get the idea. They would need to be referred to or the risk is losing your place or train of thought during such a long process, not to mention coming back to it at a later date for additions or corrections.

It's definately inaccurate if you want to include other than human units. What does an orc compare to, or a dwarf? How about something way on out there as far as M2TW is concerned, like a rat ogre? You could get creative but why hammer square pegs into round holes if you don't have to?

[Underway]

I appologize for any misunderstanding in my thread. I just belived a clean break from the actual process of conversion (the nuts and bolts per say) to a more theoretical discussion of what we should concentrate on would be useful (an overview). The other thread seemed to become a discussion of nuts and bolts without a firm consensus of the best process.

It's definately inaccurate if you want to include other than human units. What does an orc compare to, or a dwarf? How about something way on out there as far as M2TW is concerned, like a rat ogre? You could get creative but why hammer square pegs into round holes if you don't have to?

Not necessarily. For example (this conversion would not be final) we can look at Peasants as the lowest in ability troops in the game. They are probably equivalent to skaven slaves who really really suck as well. Easy conversion. Skaven slaves with spears should have stats and moral like peasants, but with a faster movement as skaven slaves are fast moving. Who else has troops equivalent to skaven slaves in ability in WH. Well skellies' are that bad as well. They move slower, but cause fear and never break. Easy conversion as well. Taken a step further, skelli archers should have stats like peasant archers as they are bad archers, but they never break, and cause fear. With asp arrows (a building like practice range upgrade) they could have stats like longbowmen in an attack (but not the range or defence as that doesn't change with asp arrows).

Skaven slaves are also as WH stat similar to Brett Men at arms, but they have better armour, weapons and a shield. Same bad moral though. With this in mind then Town Militia stats would be a better fit to Men at arms due to the better weapon and shield.

Skinks are just skaven slaves (they have shields but lower toughness) but with javlins. So take the javlin missile unit missile attack but put peasant defence, and fast movement on them.

See what I mean.

For larger more powerful units then lets look at Brett Knights. Knights of the realm would be similar to Feudal Knights in power. KOTR are just as strong as trolls on a charge but weaker after the charge. Feudal Knights have a charge bonus so we add that charge bonus number to the Troll attack number. Then shave a point or two because trolls have a weaker WS. Trolls also have more attacks per model as KOTR do, how that is represented in the MTW I'm not sure but I think you can increase the attack rate of the models. If that is the case we do that as well. Trolls have more wounds than KOTR, more Toughness and regeneration. KOTR have better armour and the Ladies Blessing. Therefore you reduce the KOTR armour stat for the trolls 2 pts (to represent regeneration that is weaker than armour on a barded horse), remove shield pts altogether, but increase defence a bit because trolls are tougher.

Then once you get Trolls right you compare them to Ogres, Rat Ogres and Kroxigors in WH and modify the stats based upon that. Ogres are not a tough but carry big axes, they also have better moral. Rat Ogres are almost exactly the same as trolls in all their stats barring the regeneration, thus lower defence. Kroxigors have a similar defence and armour, but move fast and don't have as many attacks. They also use 2 handed weapons so have a much increased attack. Str 7 vs Str 5. Better moral here as well.

For Orcs and Dwarves, find an equivalent to an empire spearman. Itallian Militia are a good one. Dwarf warriors have a much better armour and slightly better attack, much better moral than empire spearmen. Orcs have a slightly better armour same attack, same movement, same moral.

[MangyElf]

I appologize for any misunderstanding in my thread. I just belived a clean break from the actual process of conversion (the nuts and bolts per say) to a more theoretical discussion of what we should concentrate on would be useful (an overview). The other thread seemed to become a discussion of nuts and bolts without a firm consensus of the best process.

It's all theory at this point because we've not been told anything is set in stone. I read any actual conversion stats in the original thread as illustrative of the conversion theories being proposed, certainly mine was and I did make that clear. I'm not bothered if the mod team and/or moderators aren't though, it just seemed a bit pointless, to me, to run the same discussion in two threads, even with a link to the original.

Not necessarily. For example (this conversion would not be final) we can look at Peasants as the lowest in ability troops in the game. They are probably equivalent to skaven slaves who really really suck as well.

That illustrates the problem in a nutshell because your example is arbitrary. Each step after your starting point will be arbitrary too. You have no means to be accurate when doing that and doing that is unavoidable.

For it work there also needs to be a M2TW unit for every WH unit. I haven't counted but surely there isn't one for each and of those that exist you're bound to be cramming square pegs into round holes unless you ignore those for which this is necessary, making even less to use in this way. If you have to start inventing any then you've just failed to use your suggested method of conversion.