1.3 useful and useless fractions

[KrooK]

Lets divide on useful on gs and useless - here I'm talking about 1 vs 1

Useful
Papacy, Russia, Portugal, Wenice, Denmark, Milan

Useless
Turkey, Aztecs, Moors, Egypt, Mongols, Timurids

What do you think?

[Wolf_Kyolic]

Lets divide on useful on gs and useless - here I'm talking about 1 vs 1

Useful
Papacy, Russia, Portugal, Wenice, Denmark, Milan

Useless
Turkey, Aztecs, Moors, Egypt, Mongols, Timurids

What do you think?

I think you should play Retrofit. :)

[KrooK]

I played. Modders went wrong way. On retrofit fraction with good infantry and good medium cavarly are stronger (despite they were very strong on vanilla) while nations with good cavarly but weak inf and missile units are weaker.

Useful
Italian fractions and generall all fractions with pavs
Useless
Turkey, Poland, Egypt, England

And funniest on retrofit is that feudal sergeants (normal peasants) are stronger than foot knights.

[CeltiberoMordred]

I played. Modders went wrong way. On retrofit fraction with good infantry and good medium cavarly are stronger (despite they were very strong on vanilla) while nations with good cavarly but weak inf and missile units are weaker.

Useful
Italian fractions and generall all fractions with pavs
Useless
Turkey, Poland, Egypt, England

And funniest on retrofit is that feudal sergeants (normal peasants) are stronger than foot knights.

I played. Krook went wrong way testing retrofit and it's good to know how deep is the vision of Krook testing TW balances in order to rely in his statements. Now I can say all is clear :) .

This is what happens in Retrofit when you make an engagement between armoured sergeants (best spears for most christian factions) vs dismounted feudal knights (a common and not the best sword). Grassy flatland, good weather, both fresh, etc.

Armoured Sergeants                             DFK
75 men, 640 florins                      60 men, 540 florins
***number of kills***                  ***number of kills***
        28                                      64
        25                                      68
        31                                      73
        49                                      74
        26                                      73

It's just an example. The randomness range shows us that we can assume that Armoured sergeants NEVER win Vs DFK. Do we need to test DFK versus other worse spears too?

Krook can tell us that he doesn't like Retrofit and prefers vanilla, but he cannot lie and therefore confusing others. Maybe he doesn't lie and he is a good guy that tell us what he thinks. Maybe he tested another mod. But if he doesn't lie and he tested Retrofit really, then it means simply that he is as good as (put here whoever you want) testing TW games.

Enough said, and back to topic, M2TW vanilla balance is so simple that only are useful all those factions (or fractions heh) that allow you to recruit as many cavalries as possible. This profile is just what Italian factions are, with a good roster of several types of cheap medium cavalry. Bad factions are all those who relies in missile/horsearchery warfare and cannot recruit as many cavalries(or no cavalries at all) as italian factions, like Mongols/Timurids, Turks, Egypt, England, Aztecs, etc.

Regards.

[Wolf_Kyolic]

I played. Modders went wrong way.

Oh yes Krook. All the serious clans moved to Retrofit and they are all wrong as well. Wolves, Celtis, Aggonies, Devotio and all the others are wrong. Vanilla is better but they think Retro is better. Because they don't know the game.

Hf rushing on vanilla Krook. :)

[KrooK]

Heh - what an agression.

Congrats guys. So tell me plz why no one takes Turkey on retrofit :) Or Timurids - I'm playing retrofit since 2 months, maybe 6 weeks but I don't remember any game when someone used Timurids.

I wrote my point of view and you explained yours. Your suggestion about me are rather into bad taste. ESPECIALLY YOUR KYOLIC.
Some clans moved to retro, some didn't. Actually many strongest did not. Before you start talking how great clan Wolves are - play with some good clans from mtw 2. Then you can post.

Mordred - you are legend of total war. But legend status does not make you alpha and omega. Mod is bad balanced - some fractions are weak and some much stronger than into vanilla. Stronger fractions are mostly those who were strong into mtw 2 1.2 - like Italian fractions.
So plz don't tell about my lies when we can see your mistakes (I assume you were tester). Plz tell me, my dear legend how can I break Papacy using Turks (I call this fraction all the time cause I liked them on mtw 1). I'm only stupid liar and I don't know.

Lets compare (here I'm comparing 2 whole typical armies not comparison unit vs unit)

PAPACY - very good cavarly (cheap price, sword upgrades are very cheap)
very good missile units (pavs)
great infantry (papal guard breaks everything - only varagnian guard is better, upgrades are very cheap)

GL HF
Your looking for additional information
KrooK of SC

Turkey - medium cavarly with expensive upgrades
weak infantry - ottoman infantry bows are far too weak against pavs
medium missile units - but quite expensive

[Wolf_Kyolic]

Noone said Retrofit is perfect. But it is 10 times better than the Vanilla for sure. That is what we say. There is a plan for Retrofit 2.0 and all the remaining problems will be fixed.

RPS logic works there in Retrofit where that is BROKEN in vanilla. Some factions need to be balanced again (Turks are included in this... It is agreed that they are weak... Byz on the other hand is overpowered and etc...).

With version 2.0, all will be solved. However 1.3 will remain BROKEN forever! ;)


And again: Although its is not perfect, Retrofit is many times better than the vanilla.

Btw it is "faction" not "fraction".

See you my friendski. :)

[Lupu]

Retrofot 2.0?
cool!

[Wolf_Kyolic]

Retrofot 2.0?
cool!

Retrozot 2.0

Stay tuned. Coming soon.

[Tomisama]

Retrozot 2.0

Stay tuned. Coming soon.

Days, weeks, or months?

The CWC Royal Crown Retrofit Competition, with 24 three player Clan Teams, is about to hit the field.

If the upgrade were only a week away or so, it would to our great advantage to wait.

Any possibility to get a more definite report?

[zaher]

Here are some useless frictions:

I , personally dont like the taste of Kingdoms and Retrofit, its like plastic.

I, personally like Vanilla MTW2 and its metall taste.


Conclusion: doubling, tripling and crippling community will kill already weak MP. Cmon, stay together and play. I dont want changes anymore.

[Denali]

Here are some useless frictions:

wait hang on, Im confused, are we talking about fractions, factions or fricitions in this thread?
Im really becoming fractious now

[Wolf_Kyolic]

Days, weeks, or months?

The CWC Royal Crown Retrofit Competition, with 24 three player Clan Teams, is about to hit the field.

If the upgrade were only a week away or so, it would to our great advantage to wait.

Any possibility to get a more definite report?

Tomi it will be released after cwc. Cwc will be a perfect test for Retrofit since all the clans will dig it very hard there and find the oppurtunity to test their armies vs strong oponents. Then their opinions about the balance will be asked to help spotting the faults. And beside this, there is a patch coming for Kingdoms and Retrofit will have to be tweaked again after the patch. So at this point no need to rush. But that does not mean it will take Retrofit 2.0 months to get released.

So it is soon but not before cwc in any sense.

[KrooK]

Pierdole to


FRAKCJA FRAKCJA FRAKCJA

faction looks like fiction

[LadyAnn]

Here are some useless frictions:

I , personally dont like the taste of Kingdoms and Retrofit, its like plastic.

I, personally like Vanilla MTW2 and its metall taste.


Conclusion: doubling, tripling and crippling community will kill already weak MP. Cmon, stay together and play. I dont want changes anymore.

But... but... CA wants you to play Kingdoms and the only way to play kingdom is to play retrofit (else you would wait for days in Tetonic Campaign watching others play Crusade Campaign :D).

Wished CA patch up M2:TW (but then why should they?)

Annie

[zaher]

Does Retrofit attempting to make from MTW2 MTW1? It just seems ridiculous, Annie. I mean, CA can make also mumbo-umbo tribe with lots of HA, heavy cav units and polearmers with early infantry weakness.

The problem is that quantity abowe quality direction taken by developers destroying weak castle of MTW2 MP players. All I need is to see how improwing existing MTW2 MP and SP.

[LadyAnn]

Does Retrofit attempting to make from MTW2 MTW1? It just seems ridiculous, Annie.

If you think it is ridiculous, then may be it is. :D

Let me explain it a bit clearer. M2:TW balance (for MP) was broken, resulting to games with numerous rules (max 6 cavalry units and 3 horse archers, etc.) Although M:TW was played with some rules too (for example, no artillery), we could practically chose any type of faction or armies compositions without people start imposing rules (to limit exploits).

This is possible because an army composed of a lot of one kind (such as all cavalry army, or all missiles, or all infantry) is weaker than a composite army which has several types complementing each other. However, it wasn't a lot weaker than the "standard catholic" army, thus it was viable to bring variations to the battle field.

In M2:TW, single type army are either too weak or too strong. Given a game of "no rule" with sufficient florins, one can spam 20 units of heavy cavalry and beat the crap out of any one who didn't bring enough horses. Or you could bring a lot of horse archers to annoy the hell out of people.

So, I should have said "retrofit v1.0 brought M2:TW/K game balance back to the level of M:TW/Vi." Is it ridiculous? You tell me. After 3 years! :D

I do have hope that the modders of Retrofit would bring it to a better level with v2.0 (disclosure: I am not associated with these modders nor participate in their tests). I believe they could. I hope v2.0 will allow imaginative combinations of units that will give character to the factions (or a particular playing style).

M:TW/Vi(1.03) was not balanced either: the catholic army was still most optimum and adopted by many competitive players. That explains the preference for "high" era, because that's the era of pavise xbows, sword wielding heavy infantry, and lancer cavalry. However, as I said above, it was an acceptable "slight advantage" and some players would sacrifice that slight advantage for the fun of playing an unusual army, resulting in the fun of the unexpected.

Annie

[zaher]

There are always two sides for one coin. Who decided that in Chess game King can walk 1 space in turn and Queen can go everywhere ( almost )? Why Medieval or late Kings and Princes didnt decided to mod chess and make King walking everywhere? Who decided that Elephants can go only diagonal and Towers only strait? Why not the opposite? I always use archers in vanilla and mostly win so what? I never rush too and win, so what? I satisfied by Pikes and HA in vanilla, satisfied by xbows and heavy cav too. Try to get more than 10 heavy cav units for 10k florins - you cannot. And if you get 10 heavy cav - you will lose vs my mixed army. So, dunno what you all want from game - may be a norse axemen was your brother or dad? And he told you how it really was? He was payed 700 florins per year or month? How was a food in tavern? There was salt there?


Only the thing i wanted is official price fix for recruiting Danish (norse axemen, obudshaedr), German ( zweihanders, Forlrn hope ) and some other units (longbowmens, sipahi etc.), and properly distributed units for all eras, i mean , i want to see Nubian archers or Dismounted noble knights in game. Or zweihanders. And i want it not as a free present coming with Kingdoms too. I want just normal patch to MTW2 fixing all that. Be ready to buy Empire:Underwater Total War after you buy Empire: TW. You will be able to play Empire normally then, like most civilised people are. And remember to vote for " Underwater:TW" and not for " Moon : TW ". Because we know how to mod Underwater units and know nothing about space.

[Wolf_Kyolic]

I always use archers in vanilla and mostly win so what? I never rush too and win, so what?

Woaw!

[zaher]

Woaw!

Anything else?


P.S. Wolfes never can get easy the fact that somebody win. They still thinking that all victories in the world are and must be their. Scaring newbies with attitude like this.

[KrooK]

retrofit v1.0 brought M2:TW/K game balance back to the level of M:TW/Vi

Not all true - you are going into direction that came CA making mtw 1 but you are doing it worse. I remind that retrofit is not balanced (vide Papal - Turkey example). You made one mistake but it was great mistake.
According to my information you simply copied unit stats from Kingdoms to vanilla. This is your mistake. Stats that are balanced into small kingdoms campaigns will not be balanced into big campaign. Like Mongols or Turks.



Anyway I didn't like situation from mtw 1 at all. Cheap spearmen could stop elite knights. It's was joke :) I must tell that I got used to devastating charges:)

[Lupu]

Yeah, devastating charges capable of killing an army of inf charged by a unit costing 300 more than the inf units the army is consisted of :(
I never got used to those charges.

[Wolf_Kyolic]

Scaring newbies with attitude like this.

No don't be scared. We are good guys.

[KrooK]

Don't worry Lupu - most of Infantrymen hate it :P

[Wolf_Kyolic]

Krook the proud exploiter.

lol