Elite Africans

[anubis88]

Ok... here it goes.
The Carthaginian units, know as the elite africans used roman armour and shields... That's how much i know.
So the first units obviusly took the arms of dead romans.
But what happend after that? Did the Carthaginians start to make a lot of armours and shields at their own smiths? to make them like the roman ones?
And were they really so superior? I mean, the largest trading city in the world must have heard about the romans shields and weapons... why didn't they starting using them at once once they've seen how well they do?
They accepted the best of the succesor armys easilly enough, why did it take them to loose the greatest war of ancient times to figure it out?

I hope the post makes sense, since it's late and i dunno how my english sounds at this hour

Any insight would be very appreciated

[Watchman]

I'm guessing they just hadn't earlier found it necessary to copy-paste the legionary kit - their Iberian and Celtic mercs and clients fought in a pretty similar manner anyway. Hannibal probably came to the conclusion the current tactical envelope of the African troops (generally the best trained and most loyal part of their armies) was a bit too limited as it was and did something about the matter.

[Maeran]

As I understand it, the armour in question was chain-mail (lorica hamata). mail was adopted by the Romans after more conflicts with the Gauls, such as the battle of Telamon.

Telamon happened in 225BC, after the first Punic War but before the second.
So the Punic commanders did not encounter mail-clad legionaries until at least 217BC when Hannibal killed a lot of them. However, since the Romans got the idea of mail from their Gallic neighbours, and those Cisalpine Gauls were Hannibals allies, Hannibal must have seen the stuff on the backs of Gauls before he saw it on Romans.

Perhaps the Roman style mail differed from the Gauls? Or more likely after Lake Tresimene there was suddenly a lot of Roman chainmail available to Hannibal.

[pezhetairoi]

Okay, now I'm confused.

If the Romans were at least partially mail-clad by 217BC, why is the Polybian reform set at a earliest date of 208BC? o.O

[Maeran]

Where has 208 come from?

From 242BC for conditional requirements and 210BC for unconditional (i.e. AI, since any human can meet the requirements long before then) Polybian reforms

[Watchman]

Perhaps the Roman style mail differed from the Gauls?

It did actually, although the practical difference didn't amount to much. The Celtic version had the shouler doubling as a separate "cape" worn over the shoulders, whereas the Romans had it attached to the upper back and going over the shoulders in a "cut" very similar to the shoulder-pieces of the linothorax.

Or more likely after Lake Tresimene there was suddenly a lot of Roman chainmail available to Hannibal.

Likely the primary reason. Didn't he also rearm his Numidian horse with Roman shortswords while he was at it ? The Celtic and Iberian mercs probably got an equipement upgrade on the side too.

However, since the Romans got the idea of mail from their Gallic neighbours, and those Cisalpine Gauls were Hannibals allies, Hannibal must have seen the stuff on the backs of Gauls before he saw it on Romans.

Well sure, but he was after all only passing through the Gallic lands on his way to fight the Romans so the aquaintance there would have been quite brief - and in Italy conversely the Roman "cut" of the long mail shirt was the one most commonly available as booty and from allies.

[pezhetairoi]

Where has 208 come from?

From 242BC for conditional requirements and 210BC for unconditional (i.e. AI, since any human can meet the requirements long before then) Polybian reforms

Good point there, I just remembered this morning it was 242, and am now trying to figure out where 208 came from myself. O.O My mind short-circuits itself sometimes.

[Strategy]

Hannibal's army was in Rome, operating in enemy territory, with the only friends being Celts and Rebellious Italian communities. It stands to reason that Hannibal's army ended up looking like Gauls/Romans/Italians. They were supplied with clothes by a friendly Gallic chief while crossing the alps. They looted arms and equipment from the fallen Roman dead (of which there would have been a lot of equipment, fairly early on in the war). Hannibal's army was made up of mercenaries; one should not expect that they were equipped with the very best of equipment. It stands to reason that they would jump to the chance of getting a nice good chainmail shirt or fine Italian cuirrass (an ornate Oscan triple-disc cuirrass was found in Africa - probably war booty) if they got the chance. Shields wore out quickly - the Italian Scutum would be the obvious replacement (they are not likely to have shipped in new ones from Carthage). The same goes for helmets; Roman and Italian helmets are the obvious replacements for the helmets worn out by long service.

It must have been extremely common that armies finished campaigns looking very, very different from when they started. Caesar mentions how Pompey's troops had become very "hispanic" in their fighting style. His own troops no doubt looked more like Celts than proper Romans (having campaigned for so many years in Gaul).

There is no reason to suppose that Hannibal's troops adopted Roman gear because the equipment of the Roman legionaries was uniformly somehow "superior" to their own. The troops looted the dead, and took use of the rich gear that they found - such as the expensive chain mails (keep in mind that many - if not most - of the Romans would have been using pretty poor gear; their armor would have been a simple bronze pectorale). Roman armies were not uniformly equipped. The African infantry, having a proper breastplate of Linen would probably have considered themselves equally well protected as a Roman infantryman with a pectorale (though obviously - not compared to one with a chain mail shirt).

[konny]

Opposing armies tend to mix in their equippement after some time of campaigning. For example Rommel had once been driving with a British convoy for hours because he mistook the wild mixture of German and British vehicels for one of his own convoys. The same was for the East Front where soldiers could often only be distinguished by the shape of their helmets, if at all. The rest, boots, trousers, coat, weapon, bags, could be any mix in origin.

And that was in a periode when railroad made supplying soldiers with the "correct" pretty easy. So, one can image who far mixing went in ancient times. I have read that Karthagian soldiers did not like to use Roman shields because the shape of the shield was the only way to distinguish them from the enemy.

[Chris1959]

And correct me if I'm wrong but working the other after the fall of Carthage in 3rd Punic the Romans found 200,000 full sets of armour!

[Goth47]

For example Rommel had once been driving with a British convoy for hours because he mistook the wild mixture of German and British vehicels for one of his own convoys..

Never knew that,sure would like to know your source for that happening, I would just like to read about the event.

Cheers
Goth

[General Appo]

Hehe, I can imagine that. He´s been sitting in the back of his jeep driving with a strong convoy for a couple of hourse without suspecting anything, when a soldier shouts at the driver "Oy Mac, give me a lift ey?".
Just imagine the look on his face.

[overweightninja]

Hehe, I can imagine that. He´s been sitting in the back of his jeep driving with a strong convoy for a couple of hourse without suspecting anything, when a soldier shouts at the driver "Oy Mac, give me a lift ey?".
Just imagine the look on his face.

I'd like to see his exit

"Um...ja....excuse mich chaps....I hef too play zee cricket ja..." *legs it*

[konny]

Never knew that,sure would like to know your source for that happening, I would just like to read about the event.

I am sorry, because it's to long ago that I have read this I have to guess which book it was, may be Fry/Sibley's biography what was very detailed regarding the desert war and might have come up with this anectode. I recall, but that might not be correct either, that it was during one of the British counter attacks from Egypt while he was sieging Tobruk the first time.

[mAIOR]

It's quite credible and not hard to believe at all!!! When Rommel started to Blitzkrieg the hell out of the British in Africa, His flanking maneuvers went as far as entering the British headquarters! I have a book called "German campaigns of WWII" if I'm not mistaken, wich speaks of a battle that was such a mess that Rommel only won due to his stubborness :p .
I guess that's what happens when you have a battlefield the size of Germany all by yourself...


Cheers...

[konny]

Rommel was also notorious for doing a lot of scouting on his own, rushing up and down the desert by car and aircraft. He is also said to have visited a British POW camp far behind the front once. And yes, his battles were usually an awfull mess starting with flank marches of several hundred kilometres, targeting the enemy lines of supply and communication and columns from both sides rushing suprisingly into each other. Rommel won by leading "from the front" and sorting out the chaos with quick - but not always best - decisions, while the generals on the other still tried to figure out what was going on.