Guantanamo camp, and the so-called "secret prisons"

[x-dANGEr]

What is "Guantanamo Bay detention camp"?! A place to hold in people suspected to be "terrorists"?! But how is that so, when the definition of "terrorism" is not agreed upon by all the world's countries. Who gets to decide who's a terrorist?! What's the "point" of this camp?! Can it be related in any form to "secret prisons" and all the theories about those? (Btw: Do "secret prisons" exist?! )

I'm not sure if this is an appropiate way to start a thread. I apologize if it isn't, but I hope you get where I'm going.

[Vladimir]

What is "Guantanamo Bay detention camp"?! A place to hold in people suspected to be "terrorists"?! But how is that so, when the definition of "terrorism" is not agreed upon by all the world's countries. Who gets to decide who's a terrorist?! What's the "point" of this camp?! Can it be related in any form to "secret prisons" and all the theories about those? (Btw: Do "secret prisons" exist?! )

I'm not sure if this is an appropiate way to start a thread. I apologize if it isn't, but I hope you get where I'm going.

No, it's not the way to start but I know where you're going. Look at your post with a critical eye instead of an emotional heart. It would also help to do some reading on the subject.

[Fragony]

Since when do captive soldiers have to go to trial for the decisions of their leaders? This is a war. They are captives.

[ICantSpellDawg]

Guantanamo is legit. What's the problem?

[Ser Clegane]

captive soldiers

But they are not considered to be capitve soldiers by their captors.

[ICantSpellDawg]

But they are not considered to be capitve soldiers by their captors.

Most are not - they are they are "non-state actor enemy combatants"

[Lemur]

Guantanamo is legit. What's the problem?

If the situation is as cut-and-dried as you make it sound, why does everyone, including the POTUS, want to close it? Why has it been a non-stop public relations disaster? Why does every tin-pot dictator make reference to it to justify the outrage of the week? If it's just "legit," what's the problem?

[Vladimir]

If the situation is as cut-and-dried as you make it sound, why does everyone, including the POTUS, want to close it?

Hello, McFly!

Why has it been a non-stop public relations disaster?

[Husar]

It's rather easy, the stronger one makes the rules.

[Rodion Romanovich]

What is "Guantanamo Bay detention camp"?! A place to hold in people suspected to be "terrorists"?! But how is that so, when the definition of "terrorism" is not agreed upon by all the world's countries. Who gets to decide who's a terrorist?! What's the "point" of this camp?! Can it be related in any form to "secret prisons" and all the theories about those? (Btw: Do "secret prisons" exist?! )

I'm not sure if this is an appropiate way to start a thread. I apologize if it isn't, but I hope you get where I'm going.

Guantanamo Bay detention camp is the tip of the iceberg of illegal, anti-democratic camps for detaining people without any trial whatsoever with torturing them and keeping them in cells smaller than what you're allowed to have dogs in in most countries.

It holds people who haven't received trial, who don't receive any time limit for their stay there, and don't receive any information for what crime they have been put there.

Secret prisons have been uncovered all over Europe, most of them in East Europe. The Abu ghraib prison in Iraq, previously used by torture by orders from Saddam Hussein, was another secret prison until discovered. In this prison, the American troops tortured many innocent Iraqi civilians without any conclusive proof of guilt of any crime at all. Some of these prisoners died as a result of the torture. The torture, which has also been seen at Guantanamo, included stressing a dog to attack the prisoners while they were naked, and biting them all over the body, with the genitals possibly targeted by the dogs in some cases. It also included fake drowning and other forms of fake execution. Some were also beaten heavily, unclear if with heavy objects involved in the beating.

Some have been released from Guantanmo after around 5 years of detention, after it was found beyond all reasonable doubt that they were innocent. They received no compensation whatsoever for having 5 years of their lives stolen.

http://graphics.boston.com/bonzai-fb...92844_3013.jpg
"Honor bound to defend freedom"... yeah right - and "arbeit macht frei"
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/...tmachtfrei.jpg

If you're an American, and have any desire at all to be able to be proud of your nation: go sign a namelist against the Guantanamo camp NOW!

[TevashSzat]

Also, alot of the flack aimed at it is that alot of the prisoners are just kept there because the CIA/US government doesn't want to be embarassed due to their pathetic lack of any evidence.

During trials, the defendents and their lawyers can't look at the evidence, refute any charges, or basically do anything that might actually affect the trial. Alot of the evidence ends up being hearsay, or very vague too.

There was one story I remember of this Geman man being held there. His lawyer managed to appeal to US courts to look at the evidence. He was held apparently because he had a friend in Germany who was a suicide bomber and blew himself up.

Within something like 48 hours, the lawyer had German officials attest that there is no such connection and this supposed "dead" terrorist friend called and made sure everyone knew that he did not kill himself.

[Xiahou]

Guantanamo Bay detention camp is the tip of the iceberg of illegal, anti-democratic camps for detaining people without any trial whatsoever with torturing them and keeping them in cells smaller than what you're allowed to have dogs in in most countries.

detention camps usually aren't democratic...

The Abu ghraib prison in Iraq, previously used by torture by orders from Saddam Hussein, was another secret prison until discovered.

Abu Ghraib was a lot of things, but it wasn't a secret prison.

Some have been released from Guantanmo after around 5 years of detention, after it was found beyond all reasonable doubt that they were innocent. They received no compensation whatsoever for having 5 years of their lives stolen.

Some were also released because they were no longer believed to be a threat. Some of those were also later recaptured or killed in combat against coalition forces.

I'm not particularly interested in again wading into the "right" or "wrong" argument, but I wanted to inject some facts into the growing hysteria in this thread.

Hello, McFly!

I was thinking the same thing.

[Crazed Rabbit]

If the situation is as cut-and-dried as you make it sound, why does everyone, including the POTUS, want to close it? Why has it been a non-stop public relations disaster? Why does every tin-pot dictator make reference to it to justify the outrage of the week? If it's just "legit," what's the problem?

For the same reason a five minute talk with the average voter is the best argument against democracy.

CR

[Lemur]

CR, doesn't Winston Churchill deserve credit when quoted?

[HoreTore]

Winston Churchill was an upper class fascist joke, he deserves no credit.

[KrooK]

Secret prisons - of course thye must exist. How do you think we can fight with terrorists when they can do more than we. Imagine that terrorist is being catched and imprisoned into this secret prison. This great warrior of Allah after 2 hours of investigation suddenly realise that he is not so tough anymore. He is telling what he wanted destroy and who is his boss.

[Geoffrey S]

For pure practical goals I can see their uses. Shame that it means the US has to give up the moral high ground to have them, a position I think is somewhat more helpful in the long run than any number of illegal prison camps.

[Husar]

Secret prisons - of course thye must exist. How do you think we can fight with terrorists when they can do more than we. Imagine that terrorist is being catched and imprisoned into this secret prison. This great warrior of Allah after 2 hours of investigation suddenly realise that he is not so tough anymore. He is telling what he wanted destroy and who is his boss.

Exactly, he wanted to die for his cause but then he decides after two hours to throw his cause away and become a traitor to his god because mommy doesn't know where he is.
That's why they have caught Osama bin Laden already, because all those terrorists they caught were blabbering like little children after two hours of torture, especially those who aren't really terrorists and don't know a thing.

[x-dANGEr]

This great warrior of Allah after 2 hours of investigation suddenly realise that he is not so tough anymore. He is telling what he wanted destroy and who is his boss.

Kudos for writing "Islam" all over "terrorism". Though really, why is the camp still operating ? It hasn't achieved anything I know of, except a lot of flak and bad publicity for the US, I guess. And it isn't that good for the families of the detainees, who are also kept there for rather "silly" reasons. It's weird how a camp doing no good to any side is still operating. Or not?

[rory_20_uk]

To play Devil's Advocate, do you really think we'd be told if the camps were giving us masses of information? It would make the information redundant very quickly.

[Ironside]

To play Devil's Advocate, do you really think we'd be told if the camps were giving us masses of information? It would make the information redundant very quickly.

That would give the goverment the opportunity to remove the prisoners from their current stasis without to much hassle (aka convict them, release them or whatever). Besides, 5 years old intel is usually quite redundant anyway.

[HoreTore]

To play Devil's Advocate, do you really think we'd be told if the camps were giving us masses of information? It would make the information redundant very quickly.

If I think Bush and his cronies responsible for the system would show the world that they got valuable information out of it? Yes, I believe they would. Would we get the exact information, no, but we sure would be told things like "we got information from a prisoner which lead to the capture/killing of x number of terrorists".

[Xiahou]

If I think Bush and his cronies responsible for the system would show the world that they got valuable information out of it? Yes, I believe they would. Would we get the exact information, no, but we sure would be told things like "we got information from a prisoner which lead to the capture/killing of x number of terrorists".

You think they haven't said that?

[Leet Eriksson]

السلام عليكم

يا حبيبي اكس دينجر شو القضية معاك؟
أنا برأيي موضوع غونتانامو معقدة أكثر من السؤال اللي طرحته حتى الولايات ما تعرف توضح الأمر بأكمله ؤ برأيي ما كان المفروض تفتح هذا الثريد أصلا لأنه مغناطيس لردود فعل سلبية

هذا رأيي فقط ولا قصد بلاإهانة

شكرا

والسلام عليكم

[Crazed Rabbit]

CR, doesn't Winston Churchill deserve credit when quoted?

I just thought everyone knew the quote. It'd be redundant, like noting it was MLK who said "I have a dream".

CR

[Vladimir]

Dear Mother,

I'm having a lovely time in Cuba.
The food and weather are quite nice however the accommodations are quite small. Despite my love for my brothers in Morocco, I've found that orange just isn't my color.

Best to you and brother Achmed,

Sincerely,

Muhammad Jamal ibin Rasheed

[Leet Eriksson]

Just honest to god advice to x-danger, no anti-american remarks in there

[LittleGrizzly]

It hasn't achieved anything I know of, except a lot of flak and bad publicity for the US,

This is why i just can't understand Gauntanamo at all, is it because it would look like USA losing face (or Bush) that it does'nt close down ?

The place seems like a PR nightmare one of the main moral high grounds democracy has over terrorists and the type of states they reside in is how well we treat our prisnors and the most important part Innocent until proven guilty.

I only think Gauntanamo must have some point even if it is just a face saving point.

I hope all wrongly incarcerated there get thier day in court (either to try and prove thier innocence or to take them for every penny they've got)

[Mooks]

[B]

I hope all wrongly incarcerated there get thier day in court (either to try and prove thier innocence or to take them for every penny they've got)

Thats one of the most basic rights of humans.

The whole thing is a sham. Torturing people and holding them indefinetely? How can any goverment who considers itself the epitome of freedom and democracy in the world own such a place?

[Vladimir]

Thats one of the most basic rights of humans.

The whole thing is a sham. Torturing people and holding them indefinetely? How can any goverment who considers itself the epitome of freedom and democracy in the world own such a place?

(no violin)