1133 AD: Mid Campaign Questions

[ArtistofWarfare]

Esteemed members of the MTW: VI War Council:

Well, my Italian campaign continues...and I have to say, for my first serious campaign in over 1.5 years, things are going pretty well. I do however have some questions...

Just to recap: It's 1133, I hold 8 provinces. The 6 starting Italian provinces and in addition I control Naples and Rhodes. I have (had) complete mercantile control of the mediterranean, agean and black seas although I've lost a couple of connecting routes recently (storms, ship attack)...but these will be reinforced ASAP.

Until just the last 2 years, I was allied with every catholic faction who was not allied with a Muslim faction, including the Papacy. The sicilians were not my ally as I did not choose to form a bond with them, due to the fact that I fully intended on invading Sicily/Malta quite soon. I try to make it a practice not to be an unreliable/untrustworthy ally until later in the game when I don't really need strong allies anymore.

I am the richest faction...Famines in multiple provinces, an earthquake, an enemy moving into Venice for 1 turn, and a couple broken trade routes have certainly dropped income massively, but I still have about 52,000 florins in the bank and I am still profiting. The issues that have occurred are almost immediately back under control and we're restabilizing after taking 2 provinces and dealing with the aforementioned issues.

I took Naples from a 3 unit group of rebels...very minor engagement and it lead to over 175 enemies killed and over 210 taken prisoner. After the conflict for the province ended, we executed the ringleaders and let the rest of the rebels go free.

Rhodes was taken from rebels as well. Rhodes and Cyprus have both broken away from the Byzantine Empire after rebel uprisings and we have already managed to take, garrison, and fully control Rhodes...as well as begin converting the population to Christianity with 2 bishops in the province. I should note: The Byzantines are an ally of mine (after me, they have the largest naval presence and I appreciate/value their trade...I don't want or need any problems with them any time soon, especially since the provinces of theirs that I want are revolting/breaking away from their empire anyway). Lastly, related to Rhodes, there was already an Inn constructed when I captured it and I now have access to some very valuable mercenary units (horse archers, artillery pieces, etc). Rhodes is also a +1 to all Hospitaller foot knights...so another long term objective is in place by controlling the island.

So that's how I'm up to 8 provinces.

At 1133 now, with these 8 provinces in control and my army positioned in Rhodes (after just taking it) the Hungarians (who I must admit, were really the only faction I wasn't paying much attention to) who were not allies, invaded Venice with their prince and about 4 units of Horseman, 2 archers, and 2 peasant units. I moved the garrison in Venice inside the castle, and lost control of the province (but not the castle) to the Hungarians. However, due to naval control and mobility, as well as good preplanning with garrison troops for expansion, I was able to garrison Rhodes and Napals both, and still in the same turn bounce my army back to Venice from Rhodes, the same turn the Hungarians attacked. Result: The Hungarians decided to retreat from Venice and moved back to Hungarian lands. No enemies in our provinces again.

This brings us to question #1: They "controlled" Venice for 1 turn when they were in the province and I moved the garrison back into the castle. I forgot how this works in MTW since I last dealt with this. I couldn't build, current construction was cancelled, and the taxes were lowered from very high to high and I couldn't adjust them. After the Hungarians moved out of the province, everything is back to normal and I have control over Venice completely. Question: What are the effects of losing "partial" control over the province like this? Can an invading army destroy any buildings while I'm under siege in the castle? Can they do anything? Do they get the profits from the province that turn? Did they control the taxes that one turn? How exactly does this work, when an army has invaded and besieged a castle/keep, but doesn't take it and has to retreat. I just don't recall the specifics of how this works...Main concern: It doesn't look like anything was altered, but COULD they have destroyed buildings? What can an army like them do to a province like mine in that situation? Anything?

Now...after this happened (you know, the Hungarians making total fools out of themselves on the world stage and being out manuevered) I expect the Pope to warn them and for any mutual allies the Hungarians and I have to side with me. My power, wealth, national piety and control of the mediterranean should dictate just that.

Not exactly. But close: I decided Sicily, who I had been antagonizing (assassin sitting in Sicily for 3 years and a large border army/garrison sitting in Naples..not to mention my huge naval presence around that whole area) should now become an ally...as I'll be dealing with the Hungarians immediately...not them. I figured I would get one of their princesses (sicily) to marry into my faction, solidify an alliance, protect my southern front, protect my trade, and most importantly- Prevent any coalition from forming against me and keep diplomatic power. Result? Sicily turned down my offer and instead attacked my Galley sitting in the straight of Sicily and also my ship sitting up in the Black Sea. They sunk the ship near sicily, but we sunk their ship in the black sea. Again, a surprise attack did nothing for them but get us out of 1 sea lane and lose them their trade into the black sea.

So now we have Sicily and Hungary at war with me. Two unprovoked (officially, I mean I was leaning on Sicily a little but I didn't actually do anything to justify being attacked like this...and Hungary? I did NOTHING to them) attacks on me by fellow christian nations. One of them attacking and beseiging Venice...a province with about 60% catholic zeal and both a monestary and church. This is as I take Rhodes, and erode the Byzantine Empire (while being allied to them as well...I mean how smart), set up a great path for Catholic Crusades, and in just 3 years convert 12% of an ALL ORTHODOX population in Rhodes to Christianity.

Clearly, I'm on the side of Christianity and in the right on this one aren't I?

What happens? The Pope, who I have decided is merely a puppet and not a leader of Christianity, sides with the Sicilians and Hungarians (remaining allied to both of them) and leaves the alliance they had in place with me. What follows is a massive diplomatic fracturing by almost all the factions of the world. The good news is that other than the Danes and the Papacy, everyone else (almost the entire world) who had a mutual alliance with Sicily/Hungary and myself (Italy) sided with me. Further, when Hungary invaded Venice, I stole their ally...the Egyptians. My first Muslim ally. It should be noted that BOTH sicily and the hungarians were allied to muslims before this all started. I mention that because I thought maybe the pope sided with them because I scooped up Egypt as an ally, but not possible as his new "allies" have been allied to muslims all game long.

So here we are now with the Papacy, Sicily and Hungary all bordering lands of mine and 2 of the 3 being at war with me, and the Pope himself allying with my enemies.

More questions:

Question #2: Why did the Pope make the diplomatic decision that he did? Further, how on earth can that be justified considering all of the circumstances that I detailed above?

Question #3: Does this mean the Sicilians and Hungarians have total freedom to wage a war against me now? Can I assume that the Pope has warned them as he almost certainly would have done to me if I attacked a Christian nation?

Question #4: Can I defend myself freely now? What happens when I respond to this? Can I expect to get warnings/threats from the Papacy?

The last thing I want to inquire about here is in regards to war with the pope himself.

Look, obviously as we all know- The whole of Italy, Sicily and eventually, what is Hungary now, were all targets of mine anyway. Some were planned to be invaded sooner than others, but obviously I was going to be trying to conquer all of these lands anyway at some point. The thing is that it's only 1133...and I did not intend on this major, multi faction war taking place this early. I DID intend on provoking the Sicilians into attacking me. What I did not plan on was them having an ally in this (Hungary) and the Pope siding with these two aggressors.

Now that this has happened, it brings up this question:

Question #5: I've done some reading today on how excommunication works. Still, I need more details. As I've already asked, I need to know how this "choosing sides" by the papacy works. More importantly, I need to know how war with the papacy works and how actually taking over control of the papacy works. The Pope has Rome and the Papal States. What would be the result of invading? What would be the result of taking one province, but not the other? How exactly can I "take over" the Papacy? And again- How can I expect this whole mess to go diplomatically when/if I respond to Sicily/Hungary via invasion to their lands?

As I said above- It's only 1133. My intentions were to scoop up the islands that were fragmenting away from the Byzantine Empire, while avoiding war with anyone but Sicily, who I wanted to provoke into attacking me so I could freely take Sicily and Malta and destroy the Sicilian faction for now. Obviously, what has occurred the past 2 turns has changed all of this. I'll be reformulating a new strategy. Again, I DID expect to be in a battle for control of these regions, and the Papacy itself at some point...but NOWHERE near this early.

Now don't get me wrong- I'm prepared. 52,000 florins in the bank and everything else I told you makes this a fact. We could flip into a wartime economy in 1 turn and ...just become insanely powerful on the battlefield. But I was, if possible, trying to dig in and get a bigger powerbase going for as long as possible before this major war. So I'm trying to get these questions I've laid out answered in order to figure out/formulate my plans going forward.

Perhaps it's not a major war. Perhaps after what has occurred Hungary and Sicily plan to back off. Personally, I don't know what either one of them are thinking. Except that a) we're too aggressive and we're getting too powerful too fast and b) they figured better attack us sooner or later since this is where it's going to go eventually anyway c) my troop increases for expansion to middle eastern islands, along with my "leaning" on the Sicilians got them worried that I was invading soon. I'll also add that my military production capabilities are quite high tech for this point in the game. I can just field higher quality troops than they can. As far as I know (almost positive).

Or perhaps, just perhaps, even though it's early- maybe it IS "time". Depending on the answers to my questions, I may decide to just "do it" and cut to the chase- Go after the papacy and sicilian islands now. I mean, I don't even know to what extent I can "control" the Papacy if I take their lands, so as of now, I can't make these kinds of decisions.

This is why I need your help

Let me also mention, because it very well may be relevant: As said, we have the upper hand diplomatically, with the exception being the Papacy. Everyone but the Danes and Pope sided with us over the Sicilians/Hungarians. Even the HRE. Speaking of HRE, and this is what I wanted to mention- The HRE and France have been in, from what I can see (which is a fair amount) an unbelievably intense war (not battle, this is a full blown war) for this early in the game. It's been going on...many years now. No end in sight. France is also, and has been, at war with England. When we were allied to France and England as well as the HRE all at once, we were France's only ally. When the hostilities broke out between France/England, we sided with England (obviously, they had multiple allies, France just had us) and left France with no allies again. A few turns later is when Germany attacked France. From what I can tell (again, quite a bit) I think France has been winning the war against Germany...although Germany has another stack or so on the way over to French provinces. That war looks to continue as it's been going...All of that said- Just this past turn, when all of this hodepodge I've written about occurred, the French allied with the Sicilians and Hungarians. Obviously, payback for us hanging them out to dry earlier in the game (although, it was still the right thing to do).

Thank you for taking the time to read this book I've just written and thank you for any answers that follow. I doubt I'll be playing my campaign tonight as I have some work to do here at home but I'll most likely be back down to it tomorrow night late or Monday afternoon.

I just figured it would be best to consult the community here before moving any further...as I have some major decisions to make...

Thanks again!

added w/ edit:

Question #6: Almost forgot this one but it's really simple- IIRC, in MTW, there is no gifting other factions or anyone with money. This was introduced in RTW and followed in M2TW...correct?

Diplomacy is limited to status (at war, neutral, allied) or faction marriages correct?

[caravel]

This brings us to question #1: They "controlled" Venice for 1 turn... ...but COULD they have destroyed buildings? What can an army like them do to a province like mine in that situation? Anything?

Yes, the faction controlling the province has control over taxes. While they are there you can derive no income from it and all building is suspended. They could not have destroyed buildings as all buildings are inside the castle.

Question #2: Why did the Pope make the diplomatic decision that he did? Further, how on earth can that be justified considering all of the circumstances that I detailed above?

As to the diplomacy, well that is notoriously unpredictable. Don't expect it to act logically.

Question #3: Does this mean the Sicilians and Hungarians have total freedom to wage a war against me now? Can I assume that the Pope has warned them as he almost certainly would have done to me if I attacked a Christian nation?

The papacy warn the larger factions and tends to let the small factions get away with aggressions. The Sicilians and Hungarians will probably be able to get away with waging war against you yes.

Question #4: Can I defend myself freely now? What happens when I respond to this? Can I expect to get warnings/threats from the Papacy?

You can defend yourself, but be careful when trying to retake your provinces as the Papacy will see this as an aggression on your part and deliver a warning. If you are warned assault and take the province before the 2 year limit expires or attack another faction to get warned again, this will reset the previous warning and buy you some time. (exploit)

Question #5: I've done some reading today on how excommunication works. Still, I need more details. As I've already asked, I need to know how this "choosing sides" by the papacy works. More importantly, I need to know how war with the papacy works and how actually taking over control of the papacy works. The Pope has Rome and the Papal States. What would be the result of invading? What would be the result of taking one province, but not the other? How exactly can I "take over" the Papacy? And again- How can I expect this whole mess to go diplomatically when/if I respond to Sicily/Hungary via invasion to their lands?

Firstly you cannot "take over the Papacy" by any means. The Papacy can be wiped out by invading both provinces (and any other provinces they may have gained) but will eventually return in their former provinces in force to torment you once again. You cannot wipe them out through assassinating the Pope as a new one will always be elected. This is why as a catholic faction it's important to learn to live with the Papacy.

While the Papacy are gone a "Puppet Pope" sits on the throne, this simply means that the Pope is inactive and plays no further part until he reappears. This means that:

a) No crusades, though existing ones can continue. (unassigned crusade markers are also useless until the Papacy reappear).

b) Catholic factions can make war on each other without fear of excommunication.

c) All current excommunications are declared null and void.

Secondly the result of making war on the Papacy is excommunication. The Papacy will then encourage a crusading free for all against your faction. Other catholic factions will be able to crusade against you. Excommunicated Catholics temporarily take on the "broken cross" excommunicated catholic religion.

Thirdly making war on catholic factions is almost always going to get you into trouble with the Papacy, especially if you're the larger faction. Always be on the look out for opportunities to attack excommunicated Catholics or if you're desperate brave the excommunication and go it alone. When this happens you've nothing to lose by attacking Rome and pushing the Papacy into the Papal States. If you do adopt this approach you'll need to have your "happy buildings" constructed and a decent spy in every province to help maintain loyalty. More importantly you'll have to be very well prepared militarily. This is why this is not such a good idea until your faction is much stronger.

Early on the best method is to assassinate a rival into oblivion then fight the resulting rebels and/or invade, siege and assault within the two year period and then wait ten years before attacking again.

As the Italians I tend to go straight for Naples and then use spies and assassination against the Sicilians with a view to taking their provinces indirectly. After this build a strong enough naval force to defend your coasts and fortify the Northern borders and wait for the HRE to attack you. The HRE are larger and will always get warned by the Papacy. Just let them siege one of your provinces for long enough and you will achieve the desired result and will be able to freely go against provinces such as Provence and Tyrolia etc.

The Hungarians are always going to be the thorn in your side. I have never played a campaign as the Italians yet where the Hungarians have not invaded Venice. The trick is to get a decent garrison including (Italian Infantry) in there and hold them off as long as you can. I usually take Serbia using the "invade, siege, assault", then leave them to it. Losing Serbia weakens them and breaks their connection to the Sea. It can also force them to turn their attention to other enemies if you're lucky.

[ArtistofWarfare]

Caravel,

A great thanks to you for your answers...they were all spot on and extremely helpful to me.

One quick question remaining...of course, regarding "taking over the papacy".

So I can't take it over...I got that part. He'll reappear etc.

But this "puppet pope" status you speak of. To render the "real pope" (the one who is in control of the papacy right now) powerless, which province do I have to take...the Papal States or Rome (or both)? That's the part that is still hazy.

Further, who becomes the "puppet pope"? Is it my King, my conquering general (of the appropriate papal province) or the governor I put in place after I conquer said province? Or is it none of the above and instead just some randomly generated non player character that the game seats in the puppet pope role?

Thanks again...

added w/ edit: Might as well knock out the last couple of questions here...

1) So I should expect the HRE to be attacking me at some point, regardless of any diplomatic approach I take with them? I'm obviously, totally uninterested in any hostilities with them for literally, 100+ more years. The north is a total non target right now.

2) I understand that "defending" lost provinces is still viewed as a hostile action/attack on my behalf. (retaking). However, I haven't lost any provinces as the Hungarians were pushed right back out after one turn, never taking the castle. I very well may be invading Hungary period at this point (as the Sicilians really just don't have the capabilities to be anything more than an irritation right now...if that). You're saying, I should fully expect the Pope's warning the first turn I move into a Hungarian province?

3) Can the Pope attack me? I played a little M2TW at one point with HRE and remember when I was holding lands north of Rome, he attacked along with Italy and the Hungarians. I don't remember exactly how it works in MTW. To clarify: Not attack me when I'm holding Rome or the Papal States...I mean now. Could he invade Venice or Tuscany for example?

[Martok]

But this "puppet pope" status you speak of. To render the "real pope" (the one who is in control of the papacy right now) powerless, which province do I have to take...the Papal States or Rome (or both)? That's the part that is still hazy.

You must completely eliminate the Papacy as a faction, which means taking over any and all provinces owned by them. (So in your case, you'll need to conquer both Rome & the Papal Sates.)

Further, who becomes the "puppet pope"? Is it my King, my conquering general (of the appropriate papal province) or the governor I put in place after I conquer said province? Or is it none of the above and instead just some randomly generated non player character that the game seats in the puppet pope role?

No one is the puppet pope per se. Anytime the Papacy is destroyed -- either by you or an AI player -- you'll receive a message stating something to the effect of "A puppet Pope has been installed, and no new Crusades can be declared until the rightful Pope has regained his Papal throne". (I'm paraphrasing; that's not the exact quote.) That's it.

1) So I should expect the HRE to be attacking me at some point, regardless of any diplomatic approach I take with them? I'm obviously, totally uninterested in any hostilities with them for literally, 100+ more years. The north is a total non target right now.

Maybe, maybe not. As caravel pointed out, the diplomatic AI in MTW is notoriously fickle & unpredictable, so you can't count on the other factions to always behave rationally.

That said, if the HRE is locked in a fierce war with the French, they're not likely to bother you for now. (Indeed, if they end up losing territory to France -- which is a very good possibility -- the Germans could very well break up into civil war, thus relieving you of having to worry about them for a long time.) Still, you should remain at least somewhat prepared for them to double-cross you....just in case.

2) I understand that "defending" lost provinces is still viewed as a hostile action/attack on my behalf. (retaking). However, I haven't lost any provinces as the Hungarians were pushed right back out after one turn, never taking the castle. I very well may be invading Hungary period at this point (as the Sicilians really just don't have the capabilities to be anything more than an irritation right now...if that). You're saying, I should fully expect the Pope's warning the first turn I move into a Hungarian province?

Yes. You will receive a warning from His Holiness.

To further elaborate: Any time a faction attacks another faction -- even if the smaller faction attacked first -- and the smaller faction has only half as many provinces (or fewer) than the larger faction, then the larger faction will be receive the warning. So in your specific case, if you attack the Hungarians and they have 4 or fewer provinces, you will receive a Papal warning (since you currently own 8 provinces).

3) Can the Pope attack me? I played a little M2TW at one point with HRE and remember when I was holding lands north of Rome, he attacked along with Italy and the Hungarians. I don't remember exactly how it works in MTW. To clarify: Not attack me when I'm holding Rome or the Papal States...I mean now. Could he invade Venice or Tuscany for example?

Yes, the Pope can attack you in MTW. It doesn't happen often, but every now and then the Papacy will go on a major expansionist bent. On a couple of very rare occasions, I've even seen him become a full-blown superpower, taking over Italy and a substantial chunk of Europe.

[Aldgilles]

Just a few remarks on contesting a province: As long as you are in your castle and the Hungarians are in the province, you are under siege. If this continues for a couple of years some constructions will be destroyed or damaged (downgraded) each year (for instance, you started with a castle and after the siege this has become a keep). Also, as long as two parties are in a province neither will receive any income from this province. Furthermore, if you attack a province you get the Papal warning that you have to abandon the province within two years. If you manage to conquer the province within those two years (for instance, the enemy abandons) you're solid; no more sanctions will follow (unless you launch another attack within this ten year period). One more thing: if you received a warning for attacking the Hungarians, you can attack the Sicilians without worries; his Holiness gives only one warning at the time.

[ArtistofWarfare]

Caravel, Martok and Aldgilles - Thank you for the replies...great information in this thread.

This is really going to help me out. I didn't want to make decisions only to "learn as I go" as the hindsight would've driven me nuts.

The thing that really stands out here is the fact that the pope can only issue one warning at a time to a faction. Being that I'm getting attacked by a 2 faction coalition, with Papal diplomatic support...this very well may be how I go about responding.

I haven't looked at my campaign map since last night but IIRC this is still a situation that is going to require some thought.

Perhaps, the best idea is to do nothing for now- I'm the economic power of the world. I could remain defensive here and continue resupplying/rotating my naval units as I save up some more florins and plan to go to war in 15+ years.

The reason why I might do this (just a thought as of now) is that the Hungarians have enough troops to bring into any province of theirs that I invade right now, to make it an approximately 1400 man on 900 man+ standoff in the province. Not that I'd shy away from a battle this early, but I don't know if the casualties would be worth it in that situation. Further, if something went wrong and we lost our army, we'd be vulnerable for several years while we re-recruited and the influence/loyalty hit would be an irritation.

This leaves the Sicilians...and I doubt I want to get into a castle assault over Sicily. So that leaves the Island of Malta, which very well may be the target I go after here. The one hesitation I have in my mind is the chance of my army getting stranded on Malta, only to have the Hungarians re-attack Venice as soon as this occurs. That's a total non-option.

And as we've gone over here, any papal attack is auto-excommunication so that option is taken off the table as well for now too.

I'll be sitting down to the campaign later tonight and I'll make some decisions.

As said though, I have the economic power and the diplomatic power, and as of right now- am really not vulnerable at all due to garrisons and a 1400 man army sitting in Venice, which can reach any province of mine immediately due to naval lines.

They've attacked, and withdrawn...They have troops sitting around, being totally unused right now. They've lost diplomatic support by everyone but the Danes and Papacy. Assumably, they're taking significant financial hits. I need nothing from them or out of them right now. I don't think, as of now, any "offensive to be defensive" strategy really applies here. Further, as we all know, the position of defender is the envied position in a battle. Perhaps we let the attacks continue a little bit more (or see if they don't) and prepare for a MASSIVE counter attack loaded with artillery to take down fortifications. It would only take a few years for me to have about another stack recruited along with some artillery.

I'll think about things and certainly report the next steps here...

Thanks again guys...I appreciate the free intelligence