1133 AD: Mid Campaign Questions

[ArtistofWarfare]

Esteemed members of the MTW: VI War Council:

Well, my Italian campaign continues...and I have to say, for my first serious campaign in over 1.5 years, things are going pretty well. I do however have some questions...

Just to recap: It's 1133, I hold 8 provinces. The 6 starting Italian provinces and in addition I control Naples and Rhodes. I have (had) complete mercantile control of the mediterranean, agean and black seas although I've lost a couple of connecting routes recently (storms, ship attack)...but these will be reinforced ASAP.

Until just the last 2 years, I was allied with every catholic faction who was not allied with a Muslim faction, including the Papacy. The sicilians were not my ally as I did not choose to form a bond with them, due to the fact that I fully intended on invading Sicily/Malta quite soon. I try to make it a practice not to be an unreliable/untrustworthy ally until later in the game when I don't really need strong allies anymore.

I am the richest faction...Famines in multiple provinces, an earthquake, an enemy moving into Venice for 1 turn, and a couple broken trade routes have certainly dropped income massively, but I still have about 52,000 florins in the bank and I am still profiting. The issues that have occurred are almost immediately back under control and we're restabilizing after taking 2 provinces and dealing with the aforementioned issues.

I took Naples from a 3 unit group of rebels...very minor engagement and it lead to over 175 enemies killed and over 210 taken prisoner. After the conflict for the province ended, we executed the ringleaders and let the rest of the rebels go free.

Rhodes was taken from rebels as well. Rhodes and Cyprus have both broken away from the Byzantine Empire after rebel uprisings and we have already managed to take, garrison, and fully control Rhodes...as well as begin converting the population to Christianity with 2 bishops in the province. I should note: The Byzantines are an ally of mine (after me, they have the largest naval presence and I appreciate/value their trade...I don't want or need any problems with them any time soon, especially since the provinces of theirs that I want are revolting/breaking away from their empire anyway). Lastly, related to Rhodes, there was already an Inn constructed when I captured it and I now have access to some very valuable mercenary units (horse archers, artillery pieces, etc). Rhodes is also a +1 to all Hospitaller foot knights...so another long term objective is in place by controlling the island.

So that's how I'm up to 8 provinces.

At 1133 now, with these 8 provinces in control and my army positioned in Rhodes (after just taking it) the Hungarians (who I must admit, were really the only faction I wasn't paying much attention to) who were not allies, invaded Venice with their prince and about 4 units of Horseman, 2 archers, and 2 peasant units. I moved the garrison in Venice inside the castle, and lost control of the province (but not the castle) to the Hungarians. However, due to naval control and mobility, as well as good preplanning with garrison troops for expansion, I was able to garrison Rhodes and Napals both, and still in the same turn bounce my army back to Venice from Rhodes, the same turn the Hungarians attacked. Result: The Hungarians decided to retreat from Venice and moved back to Hungarian lands. No enemies in our provinces again.

This brings us to question #1: They "controlled" Venice for 1 turn when they were in the province and I moved the garrison back into the castle. I forgot how this works in MTW since I last dealt with this. I couldn't build, current construction was cancelled, and the taxes were lowered from very high to high and I couldn't adjust them. After the Hungarians moved out of the province, everything is back to normal and I have control over Venice completely. Question: What are the effects of losing "partial" control over the province like this? Can an invading army destroy any buildings while I'm under siege in the castle? Can they do anything? Do they get the profits from the province that turn? Did they control the taxes that one turn? How exactly does this work, when an army has invaded and besieged a castle/keep, but doesn't take it and has to retreat. I just don't recall the specifics of how this works...Main concern: It doesn't look like anything was altered, but COULD they have destroyed buildings? What can an army like them do to a province like mine in that situation? Anything?

Now...after this happened (you know, the Hungarians making total fools out of themselves on the world stage and being out manuevered) I expect the Pope to warn them and for any mutual allies the Hungarians and I have to side with me. My power, wealth, national piety and control of the mediterranean should dictate just that.

Not exactly. But close: I decided Sicily, who I had been antagonizing (assassin sitting in Sicily for 3 years and a large border army/garrison sitting in Naples..not to mention my huge naval presence around that whole area) should now become an ally...as I'll be dealing with the Hungarians immediately...not them. I figured I would get one of their princesses (sicily) to marry into my faction, solidify an alliance, protect my southern front, protect my trade, and most importantly- Prevent any coalition from forming against me and keep diplomatic power. Result? Sicily turned down my offer and instead attacked my Galley sitting in the straight of Sicily and also my ship sitting up in the Black Sea. They sunk the ship near sicily, but we sunk their ship in the black sea. Again, a surprise attack did nothing for them but get us out of 1 sea lane and lose them their trade into the black sea.

So now we have Sicily and Hungary at war with me. Two unprovoked (officially, I mean I was leaning on Sicily a little but I didn't actually do anything to justify being attacked like this...and Hungary? I did NOTHING to them) attacks on me by fellow christian nations. One of them attacking and beseiging Venice...a province with about 60% catholic zeal and both a monestary and church. This is as I take Rhodes, and erode the Byzantine Empire (while being allied to them as well...I mean how smart), set up a great path for Catholic Crusades, and in just 3 years convert 12% of an ALL ORTHODOX population in Rhodes to Christianity.

Clearly, I'm on the side of Christianity and in the right on this one aren't I?

What happens? The Pope, who I have decided is merely a puppet and not a leader of Christianity, sides with the Sicilians and Hungarians (remaining allied to both of them) and leaves the alliance they had in place with me. What follows is a massive diplomatic fracturing by almost all the factions of the world. The good news is that other than the Danes and the Papacy, everyone else (almost the entire world) who had a mutual alliance with Sicily/Hungary and myself (Italy) sided with me. Further, when Hungary invaded Venice, I stole their ally...the Egyptians. My first Muslim ally. It should be noted that BOTH sicily and the hungarians were allied to muslims before this all started. I mention that because I thought maybe the pope sided with them because I scooped up Egypt as an ally, but not possible as his new "allies" have been allied to muslims all game long.

So here we are now with the Papacy, Sicily and Hungary all bordering lands of mine and 2 of the 3 being at war with me, and the Pope himself allying with my enemies.

More questions:

Question #2: Why did the Pope make the diplomatic decision that he did? Further, how on earth can that be justified considering all of the circumstances that I detailed above?

Question #3: Does this mean the Sicilians and Hungarians have total freedom to wage a war against me now? Can I assume that the Pope has warned them as he almost certainly would have done to me if I attacked a Christian nation?

Question #4: Can I defend myself freely now? What happens when I respond to this? Can I expect to get warnings/threats from the Papacy?

The last thing I want to inquire about here is in regards to war with the pope himself.

Look, obviously as we all know- The whole of Italy, Sicily and eventually, what is Hungary now, were all targets of mine anyway. Some were planned to be invaded sooner than others, but obviously I was going to be trying to conquer all of these lands anyway at some point. The thing is that it's only 1133...and I did not intend on this major, multi faction war taking place this early. I DID intend on provoking the Sicilians into attacking me. What I did not plan on was them having an ally in this (Hungary) and the Pope siding with these two aggressors.

Now that this has happened, it brings up this question:

Question #5: I've done some reading today on how excommunication works. Still, I need more details. As I've already asked, I need to know how this "choosing sides" by the papacy works. More importantly, I need to know how war with the papacy works and how actually taking over control of the papacy works. The Pope has Rome and the Papal States. What would be the result of invading? What would be the result of taking one province, but not the other? How exactly can I "take over" the Papacy? And again- How can I expect this whole mess to go diplomatically when/if I respond to Sicily/Hungary via invasion to their lands?

As I said above- It's only 1133. My intentions were to scoop up the islands that were fragmenting away from the Byzantine Empire, while avoiding war with anyone but Sicily, who I wanted to provoke into attacking me so I could freely take Sicily and Malta and destroy the Sicilian faction for now. Obviously, what has occurred the past 2 turns has changed all of this. I'll be reformulating a new strategy. Again, I DID expect to be in a battle for control of these regions, and the Papacy itself at some point...but NOWHERE near this early.

Now don't get me wrong- I'm prepared. 52,000 florins in the bank and everything else I told you makes this a fact. We could flip into a wartime economy in 1 turn and ...just become insanely powerful on the battlefield. But I was, if possible, trying to dig in and get a bigger powerbase going for as long as possible before this major war. So I'm trying to get these questions I've laid out answered in order to figure out/formulate my plans going forward.

Perhaps it's not a major war. Perhaps after what has occurred Hungary and Sicily plan to back off. Personally, I don't know what either one of them are thinking. Except that a) we're too aggressive and we're getting too powerful too fast and b) they figured better attack us sooner or later since this is where it's going to go eventually anyway c) my troop increases for expansion to middle eastern islands, along with my "leaning" on the Sicilians got them worried that I was invading soon. I'll also add that my military production capabilities are quite high tech for this point in the game. I can just field higher quality troops than they can. As far as I know (almost positive).

Or perhaps, just perhaps, even though it's early- maybe it IS "time". Depending on the answers to my questions, I may decide to just "do it" and cut to the chase- Go after the papacy and sicilian islands now. I mean, I don't even know to what extent I can "control" the Papacy if I take their lands, so as of now, I can't make these kinds of decisions.

This is why I need your help

Let me also mention, because it very well may be relevant: As said, we have the upper hand diplomatically, with the exception being the Papacy. Everyone but the Danes and Pope sided with us over the Sicilians/Hungarians. Even the HRE. Speaking of HRE, and this is what I wanted to mention- The HRE and France have been in, from what I can see (which is a fair amount) an unbelievably intense war (not battle, this is a full blown war) for this early in the game. It's been going on...many years now. No end in sight. France is also, and has been, at war with England. When we were allied to France and England as well as the HRE all at once, we were France's only ally. When the hostilities broke out between France/England, we sided with England (obviously, they had multiple allies, France just had us) and left France with no allies again. A few turns later is when Germany attacked France. From what I can tell (again, quite a bit) I think France has been winning the war against Germany...although Germany has another stack or so on the way over to French provinces. That war looks to continue as it's been going...All of that said- Just this past turn, when all of this hodepodge I've written about occurred, the French allied with the Sicilians and Hungarians. Obviously, payback for us hanging them out to dry earlier in the game (although, it was still the right thing to do).

Thank you for taking the time to read this book I've just written and thank you for any answers that follow. I doubt I'll be playing my campaign tonight as I have some work to do here at home but I'll most likely be back down to it tomorrow night late or Monday afternoon.

I just figured it would be best to consult the community here before moving any further...as I have some major decisions to make...

Thanks again!

added w/ edit:

Question #6: Almost forgot this one but it's really simple- IIRC, in MTW, there is no gifting other factions or anyone with money. This was introduced in RTW and followed in M2TW...correct?

Diplomacy is limited to status (at war, neutral, allied) or faction marriages correct?

[caravel]

This brings us to question #1: They "controlled" Venice for 1 turn... ...but COULD they have destroyed buildings? What can an army like them do to a province like mine in that situation? Anything?

Yes, the faction controlling the province has control over taxes. While they are there you can derive no income from it and all building is suspended. They could not have destroyed buildings as all buildings are inside the castle.

Question #2: Why did the Pope make the diplomatic decision that he did? Further, how on earth can that be justified considering all of the circumstances that I detailed above?

As to the diplomacy, well that is notoriously unpredictable. Don't expect it to act logically.

Question #3: Does this mean the Sicilians and Hungarians have total freedom to wage a war against me now? Can I assume that the Pope has warned them as he almost certainly would have done to me if I attacked a Christian nation?

The papacy warn the larger factions and tends to let the small factions get away with aggressions. The Sicilians and Hungarians will probably be able to get away with waging war against you yes.

Question #4: Can I defend myself freely now? What happens when I respond to this? Can I expect to get warnings/threats from the Papacy?

You can defend yourself, but be careful when trying to retake your provinces as the Papacy will see this as an aggression on your part and deliver a warning. If you are warned assault and take the province before the 2 year limit expires or attack another faction to get warned again, this will reset the previous warning and buy you some time. (exploit)

Question #5: I've done some reading today on how excommunication works. Still, I need more details. As I've already asked, I need to know how this "choosing sides" by the papacy works. More importantly, I need to know how war with the papacy works and how actually taking over control of the papacy works. The Pope has Rome and the Papal States. What would be the result of invading? What would be the result of taking one province, but not the other? How exactly can I "take over" the Papacy? And again- How can I expect this whole mess to go diplomatically when/if I respond to Sicily/Hungary via invasion to their lands?

Firstly you cannot "take over the Papacy" by any means. The Papacy can be wiped out by invading both provinces (and any other provinces they may have gained) but will eventually return in their former provinces in force to torment you once again. You cannot wipe them out through assassinating the Pope as a new one will always be elected. This is why as a catholic faction it's important to learn to live with the Papacy.

While the Papacy are gone a "Puppet Pope" sits on the throne, this simply means that the Pope is inactive and plays no further part until he reappears. This means that:

a) No crusades, though existing ones can continue. (unassigned crusade markers are also useless until the Papacy reappear).

b) Catholic factions can make war on each other without fear of excommunication.

c) All current excommunications are declared null and void.

Secondly the result of making war on the Papacy is excommunication. The Papacy will then encourage a crusading free for all against your faction. Other catholic factions will be able to crusade against you. Excommunicated Catholics temporarily take on the "broken cross" excommunicated catholic religion.

Thirdly making war on catholic factions is almost always going to get you into trouble with the Papacy, especially if you're the larger faction. Always be on the look out for opportunities to attack excommunicated Catholics or if you're desperate brave the excommunication and go it alone. When this happens you've nothing to lose by attacking Rome and pushing the Papacy into the Papal States. If you do adopt this approach you'll need to have your "happy buildings" constructed and a decent spy in every province to help maintain loyalty. More importantly you'll have to be very well prepared militarily. This is why this is not such a good idea until your faction is much stronger.

Early on the best method is to assassinate a rival into oblivion then fight the resulting rebels and/or invade, siege and assault within the two year period and then wait ten years before attacking again.

As the Italians I tend to go straight for Naples and then use spies and assassination against the Sicilians with a view to taking their provinces indirectly. After this build a strong enough naval force to defend your coasts and fortify the Northern borders and wait for the HRE to attack you. The HRE are larger and will always get warned by the Papacy. Just let them siege one of your provinces for long enough and you will achieve the desired result and will be able to freely go against provinces such as Provence and Tyrolia etc.

The Hungarians are always going to be the thorn in your side. I have never played a campaign as the Italians yet where the Hungarians have not invaded Venice. The trick is to get a decent garrison including (Italian Infantry) in there and hold them off as long as you can. I usually take Serbia using the "invade, siege, assault", then leave them to it. Losing Serbia weakens them and breaks their connection to the Sea. It can also force them to turn their attention to other enemies if you're lucky.

[ArtistofWarfare]

Caravel,

A great thanks to you for your answers...they were all spot on and extremely helpful to me.

One quick question remaining...of course, regarding "taking over the papacy".

So I can't take it over...I got that part. He'll reappear etc.

But this "puppet pope" status you speak of. To render the "real pope" (the one who is in control of the papacy right now) powerless, which province do I have to take...the Papal States or Rome (or both)? That's the part that is still hazy.

Further, who becomes the "puppet pope"? Is it my King, my conquering general (of the appropriate papal province) or the governor I put in place after I conquer said province? Or is it none of the above and instead just some randomly generated non player character that the game seats in the puppet pope role?

Thanks again...

added w/ edit: Might as well knock out the last couple of questions here...

1) So I should expect the HRE to be attacking me at some point, regardless of any diplomatic approach I take with them? I'm obviously, totally uninterested in any hostilities with them for literally, 100+ more years. The north is a total non target right now.

2) I understand that "defending" lost provinces is still viewed as a hostile action/attack on my behalf. (retaking). However, I haven't lost any provinces as the Hungarians were pushed right back out after one turn, never taking the castle. I very well may be invading Hungary period at this point (as the Sicilians really just don't have the capabilities to be anything more than an irritation right now...if that). You're saying, I should fully expect the Pope's warning the first turn I move into a Hungarian province?

3) Can the Pope attack me? I played a little M2TW at one point with HRE and remember when I was holding lands north of Rome, he attacked along with Italy and the Hungarians. I don't remember exactly how it works in MTW. To clarify: Not attack me when I'm holding Rome or the Papal States...I mean now. Could he invade Venice or Tuscany for example?

[Martok]

But this "puppet pope" status you speak of. To render the "real pope" (the one who is in control of the papacy right now) powerless, which province do I have to take...the Papal States or Rome (or both)? That's the part that is still hazy.

You must completely eliminate the Papacy as a faction, which means taking over any and all provinces owned by them. (So in your case, you'll need to conquer both Rome & the Papal Sates.)

Further, who becomes the "puppet pope"? Is it my King, my conquering general (of the appropriate papal province) or the governor I put in place after I conquer said province? Or is it none of the above and instead just some randomly generated non player character that the game seats in the puppet pope role?

No one is the puppet pope per se. Anytime the Papacy is destroyed -- either by you or an AI player -- you'll receive a message stating something to the effect of "A puppet Pope has been installed, and no new Crusades can be declared until the rightful Pope has regained his Papal throne". (I'm paraphrasing; that's not the exact quote.) That's it.

1) So I should expect the HRE to be attacking me at some point, regardless of any diplomatic approach I take with them? I'm obviously, totally uninterested in any hostilities with them for literally, 100+ more years. The north is a total non target right now.

Maybe, maybe not. As caravel pointed out, the diplomatic AI in MTW is notoriously fickle & unpredictable, so you can't count on the other factions to always behave rationally.

That said, if the HRE is locked in a fierce war with the French, they're not likely to bother you for now. (Indeed, if they end up losing territory to France -- which is a very good possibility -- the Germans could very well break up into civil war, thus relieving you of having to worry about them for a long time.) Still, you should remain at least somewhat prepared for them to double-cross you....just in case.

2) I understand that "defending" lost provinces is still viewed as a hostile action/attack on my behalf. (retaking). However, I haven't lost any provinces as the Hungarians were pushed right back out after one turn, never taking the castle. I very well may be invading Hungary period at this point (as the Sicilians really just don't have the capabilities to be anything more than an irritation right now...if that). You're saying, I should fully expect the Pope's warning the first turn I move into a Hungarian province?

Yes. You will receive a warning from His Holiness.

To further elaborate: Any time a faction attacks another faction -- even if the smaller faction attacked first -- and the smaller faction has only half as many provinces (or fewer) than the larger faction, then the larger faction will be receive the warning. So in your specific case, if you attack the Hungarians and they have 4 or fewer provinces, you will receive a Papal warning (since you currently own 8 provinces).

3) Can the Pope attack me? I played a little M2TW at one point with HRE and remember when I was holding lands north of Rome, he attacked along with Italy and the Hungarians. I don't remember exactly how it works in MTW. To clarify: Not attack me when I'm holding Rome or the Papal States...I mean now. Could he invade Venice or Tuscany for example?

Yes, the Pope can attack you in MTW. It doesn't happen often, but every now and then the Papacy will go on a major expansionist bent. On a couple of very rare occasions, I've even seen him become a full-blown superpower, taking over Italy and a substantial chunk of Europe.

[Aldgilles]

Just a few remarks on contesting a province: As long as you are in your castle and the Hungarians are in the province, you are under siege. If this continues for a couple of years some constructions will be destroyed or damaged (downgraded) each year (for instance, you started with a castle and after the siege this has become a keep). Also, as long as two parties are in a province neither will receive any income from this province. Furthermore, if you attack a province you get the Papal warning that you have to abandon the province within two years. If you manage to conquer the province within those two years (for instance, the enemy abandons) you're solid; no more sanctions will follow (unless you launch another attack within this ten year period). One more thing: if you received a warning for attacking the Hungarians, you can attack the Sicilians without worries; his Holiness gives only one warning at the time.

[ArtistofWarfare]

Caravel, Martok and Aldgilles - Thank you for the replies...great information in this thread.

This is really going to help me out. I didn't want to make decisions only to "learn as I go" as the hindsight would've driven me nuts.

The thing that really stands out here is the fact that the pope can only issue one warning at a time to a faction. Being that I'm getting attacked by a 2 faction coalition, with Papal diplomatic support...this very well may be how I go about responding.

I haven't looked at my campaign map since last night but IIRC this is still a situation that is going to require some thought.

Perhaps, the best idea is to do nothing for now- I'm the economic power of the world. I could remain defensive here and continue resupplying/rotating my naval units as I save up some more florins and plan to go to war in 15+ years.

The reason why I might do this (just a thought as of now) is that the Hungarians have enough troops to bring into any province of theirs that I invade right now, to make it an approximately 1400 man on 900 man+ standoff in the province. Not that I'd shy away from a battle this early, but I don't know if the casualties would be worth it in that situation. Further, if something went wrong and we lost our army, we'd be vulnerable for several years while we re-recruited and the influence/loyalty hit would be an irritation.

This leaves the Sicilians...and I doubt I want to get into a castle assault over Sicily. So that leaves the Island of Malta, which very well may be the target I go after here. The one hesitation I have in my mind is the chance of my army getting stranded on Malta, only to have the Hungarians re-attack Venice as soon as this occurs. That's a total non-option.

And as we've gone over here, any papal attack is auto-excommunication so that option is taken off the table as well for now too.

I'll be sitting down to the campaign later tonight and I'll make some decisions.

As said though, I have the economic power and the diplomatic power, and as of right now- am really not vulnerable at all due to garrisons and a 1400 man army sitting in Venice, which can reach any province of mine immediately due to naval lines.

They've attacked, and withdrawn...They have troops sitting around, being totally unused right now. They've lost diplomatic support by everyone but the Danes and Papacy. Assumably, they're taking significant financial hits. I need nothing from them or out of them right now. I don't think, as of now, any "offensive to be defensive" strategy really applies here. Further, as we all know, the position of defender is the envied position in a battle. Perhaps we let the attacks continue a little bit more (or see if they don't) and prepare for a MASSIVE counter attack loaded with artillery to take down fortifications. It would only take a few years for me to have about another stack recruited along with some artillery.

I'll think about things and certainly report the next steps here...

Thanks again guys...I appreciate the free intelligence

[ArtistofWarfare]

regarding the counter attack I mentioned planning:

If I decided to go hog wild (just hypothesizing) and launch a 2 front war now or in the near future (It's still, technically, only 1 front and would only be for a couple of turns..then decidedly 1 front)...How would I go about handling the pope's 1 warning at a time?

Would I attack them both in the same turn, or attack one of them 1 turn later than the other?

ty

[Martok]

Would I attack them both in the same turn, or attack one of them 1 turn later than the other?

ty

The latter (attack them on different turns).

Specifically, you should first attack the faction you don't want to tangle with right now. Then, after you've received the Papal warning to leave the first faction alone, attack the other faction -- the faction you do want to go to war with.

In your particular case, I would probably advise you to attack the Hungarians to get the Papal warning, as then you will have 10 years to make war upon the Sicilians as you please. And you certainly don't need to launch a major invasion of Hungary, either -- simply sending in a single unit of spearmen and then retreating would suffice. (Remember, your main goal is to attract the Pope's attention north, so that he doesn't notice you messing with the Sicilians down south. )

I realize the Huns are probably the more dangerous faction overall, but the Sicilians are far more irritating -- as long as they're still alive, they will constantly try to sink your ships and disrupt your trade network. Better to just take them out now, so that they cannot threaten your control of the Mediterranean. (In addition to which, adding Sicily to your domain would boost your trade income considerably, as well as the island serving as an ideal point for a naval base. )

The Hungarians can wait until your stronger and in a more secure position. If they want to break their teeth against the army you have protecting Venice, then that's their choice -- however foolish.

[ArtistofWarfare]

The latter (attack them on different turns).

Specifically, you should first attack the faction you don't want to tangle with right now. Then, after you've received the Papal warning to leave the first faction alone, attack the other faction -- the faction you do want to go to war with.

In your particular case, I would probably advise you to attack the Hungarians to get the Papal warning, as then you will have 10 years to make war upon the Sicilians as you please. And you certainly don't need to launch a major invasion of Hungary, either -- simply sending in a single unit of spearmen and then retreating would suffice. (Remember, your main goal is to attract the Pope's attention north, so that he doesn't notice you messing with the Sicilians down south. )

I realize the Huns are probably the more dangerous faction overall, but the Sicilians are far more irritating -- as long as they're still alive, they will constantly try to sink your ships and disrupt your trade network. Better to just take them out now, so that they cannot threaten your control of the Mediterranean. (In addition to which, adding Sicily to your domain would boost your trade income considerably, as well as the island serving as an ideal point for a naval base. )

The Hungarians can wait until your stronger and in a more secure position. If they want to break their teeth against the army you have protecting Venice, then that's their choice -- however foolish.

Martok my friend...

As always, thank you for your input...it's always valued and appreciated. Not to be "sappy" but I always look forward to your posts...you're definitely a fellow warfare tactician

This week turned into a very busy one for me and rather than try to squeeze my campaign in with 1-2 hour clips every other day, I just scrapped the week knowing that Sunday night I'd have ages to play. Considering the point I'm at here in the campaign, I thought it was a good time to take the week to think things over, and then dive back into it for a good 50+ year stint over the next several days.

Well, I got home tonight, made some coffee, and sat down to load up my campaign map. I looked a few things over. The week off was actually perfect...not too long to feel disoriented (not at all, I recall pretty much every single decision I have made and notes I was taking all along have jogged my memory well) but still just long enough to give me a clear, open minded approach to things.

From what I see, I don't think I will be doing the 2 front attack on both Sicily and Hungary. It's still only 1133 and as such, I just don't think I want to go with something that daring and risky this early in my campaign. The way I see risk/reward in warfare is that your risks should, with a few exceptions of course, almost always coincide directly with your needs. Right now, there's nothing that a military move of that risk level would bring me that really justifies it in the first place. Worst case scenario could actually be what some would perceive as the best case right now: Taking a province from both the Huns and the Sicilians. a) Neither of them have a province that would bring me any major income above what I already receive (at this point in the campaign) b) I have 8 provinces right now...I don't need 10 this early. It would just be too much, too fast and I would risk overextension. Further, I just grabbed up Naples and Rhodes recently...so another 2 provinces in the next few years would be a total of 4 provinces taken in a decade or so. Considering that rapid expansion was just not the phase I was in a turn or two ago, it's not going to be the phase I'm in now...simply because someone attacked me. One doesn't lead to the other in my book, in this case.

I'm going to be bending my brain around this a bit more before I take any action but I am definitely leaning in the same direction I was a week ago almost to the minute: Doing nothing.

As I stated last weekend, there is absolutely no military or economic burden on my Italians right now. We had a short term military goal a few years back: Take Naples and then take Rhodes/Cyprus. Naples and Rhodes are taken, garrisoned and already building...Cyprus is still open for the taking, but no longer an immediate target (I don't think at least) due to the Hun/Sicilian attack back home. So for now, militarily, we've achieved our goals. Hungarian lands were not valuable to me at this point 2 turns ago, and that really hasn't changed. Sicilian islands are, for all the reasons we've listed, the attractive target right now but again- Attacking, taking control of, and then garrisoning/building etc a province is an "investment" right off the bat. It costs money to make money. Taking that into consideration, and then looking at the current tech tree advancements in those provinces, makes it rather clear to me that they're just not worth it to me right now. If they were just grab and go lands, sure. They're not...these are homeland provinces and it's going to be a fight.

This brings up the other line of thought I have going right now: We now have a situation where factions who previously had little intelligence on our military/technology now have a very good idea of where my Italians stand. Further, now that we're "at war", this is inevitably going to spark an arms race around the Central Mediterranean. Main reason being that we currently out tech the Huns/Sicilians/Papacy considerably, with a much stronger economy and the largest Navy in the game. The AI clearly has a short term goal: To attack me. Obviously, after what has occurred in the past 2 years, there will be some tech'ing up going on in Hungary/Sicily.

So what I can do is just sit back, dig in defensively (already under way), reconnect a couple of Naval dots, and continue to build power. In the meantime, my enemies will upgrade their provinces, spend more money, and further commit themselves to the "attack Italy" cause. This would diminish their current power while mine builds, and at the same time it would create a situation where my enemies build my targets FOR me and only make them more attractive/lucrative.

I see this approach as being the most intelligent militarily right now...(again, right now heh). If I can take no military action, yet still watch future provinces I plan to take tech up, while still gaining overall power of my own...I'm going to be killing several birds with not even one stone. Further, this would begin the "war of attrition" against Sicily/Hungary because as we've already gone over, they've already committed an attack and for THEM (as opposed to me), any increase in wealth/power/influence is dependent upon future military victories.

This would just hammer the burden of action on top of them and pretty much force them to launch a large invasion into my provinces. I'll be defensively sound as anything, crush their invasion, and be in a position to immediately launch a counter attack at least 2x the man power size of their initial attack. The result of that should be a total victory over the Sicilians with both Malta and Sicily itself in our control, and most likely one Hungarian province in our control. This would leave the Hungarians all alone in their war against me, with their ally out of the game, and myself with a just massive advantage over the Hungarians in every way possible. At that point, I should be in a position to burst at the seams and begin some pretty aggressive military expansion. But that's for another strategy session, another time

I'm going to go scour this campaign map a bit more and then dig into moving forward...I'll be back around later tonight/tomorrow.

[Heidrek]

You know what I've found interesting? I killed the pope in battle after being excommunicated, then left Rome in the hands of a rebel army waiting for the Papacy to reappear. Sure enough they did a few years later.

They retook Rome from the rebels and all was peaceful for a bit, then they attacked me to take Tuscany. I fought the Pope off and he retreated. Now I'm at war with the Pope, but I'm not excommunicated.

Doesn't that seem weird? I would have thought that no matter what, if you're at war with the pope, you're getting Ex-comm'd.

Likewise, is it possible to be allied with the pope while excommuniated?

[Martok]

Doesn't that seem weird? I would have thought that no matter what, if you're at war with the pope, you're getting Ex-comm'd.

Not if you're the defender, as you've just discovered. You won't be ex-commed if His Holiness was the aggressor.

Likewise, is it possible to be allied with the pope while excommuniated?

I suppose it possible, at least theoretically. I don't think I've ever once seen it happen, however. It usually works out that the Papacy was also allied with the faction you're at war with -- the one for which you were ex-commed in the first place -- and so chooses that other faction over you.

[ArtistofWarfare]

Not if you're the defender, as you've just discovered. You won't be ex-commed if His Holiness was the aggressor.


I suppose it possible, at least theoretically. I don't think I've ever once seen it happen, however. It usually works out that the Papacy was also allied with the faction you're at war with -- the one for which you were ex-commed in the first place -- and so chooses that other faction over you.

If I recall something from my old late night sessions- Doesn't being excomm'd render all religious buildings relatively useless (at least any unit bonuses they render?)...

Just curious...

[Dayve]

I used to think excommunication wasn't that bad, until my last campaign as the French. I controlled ALL of what would be Gaul, a city in Spain that rebelled, the entire west of the area HRE starts with, and two provinces in northern-Italy that rebelled. I was doing great, loyalty was high, religion was good, armed forces were where they needed to be and in great enough numbers to defend my every border, then the pope reconciled Germany and excommunicated me after 2 years, and my kingdom went to the dogs. First i lost a province here and a province there i wasn't bothered about, then i made my biggest mistake and decided to abandon west Germany completely. My armed forces obviously didn't like this and half my kingdom rebelled, completely split in half. Spain took their province back and the two large provinces in the west of France, further rebellions were sparked off and eventually i was left with only my capital region and 1 other province which was split off and hardly developed.

Excommunication can ruin you in less than 10 turns if you're not careful and you don't have absolute 100% loyalty from your every general.

[Martok]

If I recall something from my old late night sessions- Doesn't being excomm'd render all religious buildings relatively useless (at least any unit bonuses they render?)...

Just curious...

They should still work as before (fortunately).


@Dayve: Yeah, being ex-commed can be a real kick in the teeth if you're not careful. I usually only risk ex-communication if either my faction leader is old and soon to die, or the Pope is -- that way no ex-com lasts for very long.

[ArtistofWarfare]

If they continue to work...

That's a biggie for me.

I'm at the point where I'm in the process of quickly erecting Watch Towers (and now perhaps Churches) in every province of mine.

I'd like to know that I did pretty much everything I could possibly do to raise zeal/loyalty in my provinces before anything that happens to threaten that zeal/loyalty crops up.

Famines, Earthquakes, Enemy Attacks...already these have all occurred, yet we've stood strong. I'd like to keep being able to say that.

[Martok]

If they continue to work...

That's a biggie for me.

I'm at the point where I'm in the process of quickly erecting Watch Towers (and now perhaps Churches) in every province of mine.

I'd like to know that I did pretty much everything I could possibly do to raise zeal/loyalty in my provinces before anything that happens to threaten that zeal/loyalty crops up.

Famines, Earthquakes, Enemy Attacks...already these have all occurred, yet we've stood strong. I'd like to keep being able to say that.

You may already know this, but building the Town Watch line of structures helps with provincial loyalty as well. Just an FYI.

[ArtistofWarfare]

Oh absolutely...

Town Watch/Town Guards are already down everywhere...moving up to a county militia in Venice relatively soon.

I love this line of tech...a) as you said, provincial loyalty is bolstered by them b) it provides a nice supply of militia units to further assist the construction of armies/garrisons.

These are always a big part of my building plans...

[ArtistofWarfare]

Well, I'll try to write a detailed report when I hit 1150 or so...(I've been going very, very slowly in my campaign the past several days...really thinking things through. It's my first war in a while...but the pace looks to be picking back up again).

I'm in 1140 and quite a bit has occurred since my last update here...even in just 7 years.

I have taken Croatia from the Hungarians and I have taken Sicily from the Sicilians. I have a Papal warning against me with sanctions to not attack either of these factions until around 1147/1148.

Things got relatively complicated for a minute in the campaign and I became extremely tactical about every decision I made for the last several turns now. Although my thinking was along the lines of the "do nothing for now" and keep digging in theory, it just didn't work out that way.

As said, I'll go into more detail later but for now:

- I attacked the Hungarians in Croatia. My intention was to attack, destroy the garrison and capture the prince inside only to ransom him back, and destroy all the buildings in the province, pull out and let it rebel. Long story short, I wound up assaulting with a large mercenary force (while my main Italian army was in Naples, preparing for the attack on the Sicilians) and a mercenary Catapult crew and killing the entire garrison, as well as killing their Prince. Buildings were damaged and destroyed in the process, some shacks even wound up burning to the ground as my forces reached the keep and slaughtered the last of the Hungarians. For reasons I'll get into later, I kept the province. It's become the defensive point to protect my lands from Hungarian invasions, as this is the only province they can directly attack me in...

- The "attack 2 factions, get one papal warning" system didn't work out as intended. The Pope died immediately after giving me my warning to stop attacking the Hungarians...so any attack on Sicily would still result in me being warned by the new Pope. Still, I wound up invading Sicily, attacking and capturing the garrison outside the Castle (including the King of Sicily), besieged the remaining forces inside the castle, and ransomed the King back to the Sicilians for 10,476 florins. Sure enough, I got my warning. This led to a brainbending strategy thinking on my behalf. Once again, long story short: I wound up bribing the remaining forces in the castle as they were beseiged by over 1800 men and there were hundreds of reinforcements in the next province, with a virtually unlimited supply behind them. This bribe was arguably the best move I've pulled in the campaign yet. I have Sicily, I avoided excommunication, the Hungarians and Sicilians have been rendered powerless, and my finances fell into place to not only a) recoup the entire cost of the war thus far but b) rocket fuel our economy.

If that agent had been unsuccessful in his bribe attempt, I don't know exactly how I would have handled it. My artillery was an additional turn away from being part of the assault, and Sicily had a Keep and Curtain Wall. This was also my main professional army, so throwing it away on an assault, that might have failed and resulted in excommunication, probably wouldn't have been the smart decision...rendering me quite vulnerable. I was already preparing to hunker down and withstand an excommunication (I could have...definitely..and kept expanding at the same time) but obviously, this was a last case scenario. Basically- If we needed to ignore the Pope in order to a) continue to use our fleet to dominate the Central Med without Sicilian blockades and b) accomplish our military objective...which was Sicily, well then so be it.

As it is now, I have 10 total provinces and I have moved my main army back into Croatia, rejoining my Mercenary army that had been sitting there in defense. Now I"m slowly replacing all Mercenaries with regulars gradually, stepping up "homeland security" and defensive garrisons everywhere, and I have a small raiding army already sitting on Cyprus ready to take that as well...with a peasant garrison in Venice awaiting deployment to this island next turn. This will give us 11 provinces, and the chance to sit back in a totally defensive position against the Hungarians now (who again, can only attack one province...and if they want to come on in, they're welcome to...they just can't beat us with the troops they have and we would love another fight with them...we just can't attack them right now) and basically, ignore Sicily until the sanction against us has expired. Sicily is done...pinned down to just Malta, with a King, an Heir and 2 light infantry units. They have one Cog left and it's 2 water tiles removed from them, up by Corsica/Sardinia, surrounded by my Italian navy. So they have no money, no control, and absolutely no way to attack us. We're back to worrying about strictly one front and again, defensively.

In other words: Although there haven't been any ceasefires, and the Huns still have around 2000 troops, this war is OVER.

I'll be back around later on...

Oh- I'll add this just for now until I sum up all the little details (the relevant ones)

1) Germany either is still, or just was in Civil War. France and Germany are in the "reloading" phases of their war (after, again- what seemed to be several MAJOR battles for this early in the game) but what is clear now is that France is definitely winning. What does seem likely is that France will attack us shortly. We're an HRE ally, a firm one, France's power is on the steady rise, they have a huge army, and France is a Sicily/Hungarian ally. What I'm currently comtemplating is whether or not to attack the French. We could do it during a French besieging of a German province and make ourselves out to look like hero's, and expand influence. Or, we could keep going along the lines of a defensive strategy at this point, and await the French attack. Still deciding.

2) I killed a Papal Emissary again, and had a failed attempt at assassinating the Pope (I tried the same turn my emissary bribed the army out of Sicily...just in case). It had a 24% chance of success and considering what was on the table, I felt it was worth it. I have and can produce more assassins. At this point, considering everything that has gone on this decade, I am going to start putting a lot of pressure on the Papacy. Spies, Assassins, threatening armies on the border...they're going to get the point. As if the war I've been in with their allies hasn't already sent the message heh. Remember- We were attacked. This war was brought upon us. Lastly for now- My King is 66 years old. I MAY (this is a big maybe as of now) attack the Papacy and get excomm'd right in time for the excomm to be lifted when my King dies. Or I can attack Malta with this strategy. Ideally, since we averted the excomm up to this point, we'd probably like to keep doing so. Matter of necessity and we don't NEED to attack anyone right now. Our counter attack this decade brought us more than I would have ever hoped for in that short of time. The fact remains, our economy and more importantly, our infrastructure, is solid as a rock. Loyalty from governors and commanders is quite elevated as well. We're beginning to approach (this is a conservative judgement...we're probably already at this point) a point where papal sanctions and excommunications are irrelevant to us. When I'm convinced this is the case, I'll more than likely just flip the switch in one year, out of nowhere, and attack the Papal States and Rome at the same time, remove the Pope, get the puppet pope in place, and claim control over all of Italy and the Catholic Church. Beyond that point should come expansion akin to that of the original Roman Empire...and eventually, our title as the "New Roman Empire".

[Martok]

Outstanding, mate! Glad everything's worked out for you thus far.

I have no real advice for you in regards to the French, aside from agreeing with your wait-and-see policy. Not that I like proposing "do-nothing" strategies as a rule, but in this case it probably really is best to just sit tight and see what happens first.

[Aldgilles]

It would be nice to lift a siege on your German ally, just to see how it works out (i've never done that), or you could try to move your borders away from Venice (get Tyrol, Austria) for extra security, and eventually have pikes+1 (not really a biggie, but nice).

[ArtistofWarfare]

Well guys, I had a rough weekend...

Was playing my campaign Friday night and was really into it...had some very exciting things occur...

Then it happened- Long story short, I went through a bout of food poisoning. Anyone here who has ever experienced this knows that you're pretty much leveled for 2 days or so when this happens, and I was.

Woke up feeling a bit better today...less nausea...I'll probably be back to my campaign later tonight.

On Friday night, I got excomm'd. The Hungarians attacked me up in Croatia with a stack full of about 2200 soldiers and led by their King as well as a few royal members of the family.

I'll get into the details of this battle later, but I choose to defend the ground...I had 3200 troops in the province. If you know the Croatia map: I used that very high cliff as an artillery position, and the Hungarians just wound up in a meat grinder down below it with feudal knights, Rus spearman, and artillery fire from above. This is simplifying the battle a bit, but I'll go into detail later. This battle only took 15 minutes and 30 seconds, but left the battlefield littered with 1075 dead Hungarians and only 296 dead Italians (mostly mercenary troops intended to be thrown away for a high enemy kill count)...It was an extremely satisfying battle. It also left the Hungarian king with a Great Runner vnv, as his entire army had to pack up, even with some reinforcements on their way to the field, and turn around marching straight back into Hungary, quitting the battle...all while artillery fire from a Catapult and Mangonel (yeah, both) were just hammering his retreating lines. I probably could have driven up the kill count, or maybe even captured/killed the King of Hungary, although my entire plan was to not give up the hillside I was on, as there were hundreds of Cavalry reinforecements on the way from the Hungarians. In reality, only 3 units of reinforecements were actually called by Hungary, and these were quickly ordered to withdraw before they even reached the front lines of the battle. We still refused to dislodge our position, reaching our goal of defending the province and crippling the Hungarian military at the same time.

After this battle, I was excomm'd and so was France who just took another province from the HRE. The HRE appears to be running out of gas in their war against France. They look like they're pulling back along the entire front, and making defense their plan at this point. As far as European factions go, France and my Italians are clearly the two most powerful factions currently. And our power is only set to rise further. Obviously, we're heading towards a major European showdown here. All that talk I had about waiting for a later time to have the big multi faction war is out the window. Things have evolved to the point where we're ready, and the time is right.

The excommunication really didn't do anything to us. We took a loyalty hit in all of our provinces...the same turn we scooped up Cyprus (yeah we took it and garrisoned it already, fort building) and only our second turn controlling Sicily. Still, with this expansion going on and the excommunication, we average around a good 120 percent loyalty in all provinces. Really nothing of any concern or worry at this point. Our king did just turn 68 years old though, but there are multiple Heirs, and again- Obviously my King dying will lift the excomm...so we're ok here.

I really don't know why I was excomm'd...I was just defending my province. Perhaps it's just a matter of power? 12 provinces now, total income per turn just shy of 8000 florins (not profit, income) and I've now killed a good 1500 Hungarians in our war...and ransomed the Sicilian king. Is it possible that I was excomm'd simply because I'm getting too powerful? Same with France?

I haven't been out of the house in two days due to getting sick, so I have to run out for a bit now...I'll be back later. The question regarding excomm stands. Still- I'm kind of happy with it. The cat's out of the bag- I know what excomm entails and it's really not that bad. As suspected, an appropriate infrastructure in all provinces can be a counterweight to any excomm. We're still only one turn into it so we'll see if any surprises crop up, but if they don't...I think my nation of Italy is beyond the point of acknowledging the Pope...period.

I have some decisions to make- Less complicated that before because I know more about the game again now but I have to decide: Push into Hungary one more turn...attack their broken army and Capture their king? Raid and pillage the countryside? Or turn back west...and protect against a French invasion? (I really think it's coming at this point...it just makes sense). Or perhaps, if I'm safe from France for now, I'll put a couple smaller defensive armies bordering Hungary and France and turn my main army inward on the Papacy itself...attempting to crush it entirely before my King dies and the excomm is lifted.

We shall see.

P.S.- For the first time in this campaign, I executed prisoners. While the Hungarians were withdrawing their army from the attack on Croatia, I executed 114 prisoners. a) I didn't want to ransom them back as I needed Hungarians dead more than I needed a few hundred florins. b) We're done playing games with attackers. We honored prisoners for the first few rounds of this war...after a 3000+ man attack, I figured it was time to start sending a message c) My 5 star general in this battle had no dread virtues or vices but several Chivalric ones. I figured it was time to also drop one on chivalry and raise one on Dread being that this general is the commander in all of my main battles against foreign troops.

Is this why I was excomm'd? Either way, I wouldn't undo the decision...as said, we're done playing games- We're at Total War.

Let me also add, that on the same turn, I once again executed a Papal Emissary in Napals (the last one I could see). Perhaps, as suspected before, I'm just getting too aggressive and/or powerful and the Pope just decided, excomm 'em? This would make sense being that this war is really a proxy war between myself and the Papacy over control of the Italian Peninsula, Central Mediterranean, and Catholic Church.

Be back later...

Oh- one more thing to add- I noticed before I stopped for the night, that the Almohads (not an ally of mine, but an ally of Sicily/Hungary...but not France) have an emissary in Cordoba ready to depart on a mission to form an alliance with the Papacy. Obviously, there's a lot to weigh in decision making here as this could turn into a larger scale war than ever could have been first anticipated this early in the game.

[Martok]

Well you wouldn't have been ex-commed simply for defending your lands. (It's a different story if you send in an army to relieve your forces under siege, but it doesn't sound like that's the case here.)

Still, it doesn't take much provocation for the Pope to kick you out of the Church. Have you made any aggressive moves at all lately? Simply attacking a Sicilian ship, for example, would be all the excuse His Holiness would need to cast you out.

[ArtistofWarfare]

Hey Martok...

Hope things are going well for you...

1) No...I didn't send in an army to relieve the siege. Every unit that partook in that defensive battle was already in the province defending it before the Huns attacked there.

2) I was quite diligent in making sure that I didn't attack the Sicilians or Huns after I got my warnings. No naval attacks (although that last Sicilian Cog is going down now) no sallying, no nothing...

Again, perhaps it was the executing of the prisoners that did me in with the Pope. Still, I find it hard to believe that this action would do it by itself. It seems more likely to me that this is a matter of aggression/expansion in general. The Pope specifically didn't want me to take Sicily...yet I bypassed his ways and got it via a bribe on the garrison after I destroyed the army waiting in the field (and captured/ransomed their king).

My first expanding began in 1132. It's 1141. So in 9 years I've doubled the size of my provinces (from 6 to 12), killed at least 3 papal emissaries, killed close to 2,000 total Catholic enemies in battle (between the Huns and Sicilians) etc. The fact that France got excomm'd the same turn as I did only leads me to further believe that this was a matter of him (the Pope) excomm'ing the two most powerful, aggressive, expanding factions within the Catholic Church.

Ever since he sided with the Sicilian/Hun coalition against me, I've stopped expecting him to act on behalf of the Church. He's only in his early 30's (Pope Giovanni the 1st) so he's going to be around for quite a while (at least until I kill him).

As said, I'll see exactly what I do next when I sit back down to the campaign screen but I think I'm going to have to escalate some further aggression at this point.

I have no assurance that the Huns are done with their stubborn attacks...so I have to still keep a defensive army (at the least) in Croatia. The Sicilians are already building a fort on Malta (their last province) but they really aren't a threat of any kind since any ship they build will be immediately sunk at this point. That brings us to the Pope, who's army is totally harmless...and leaves us with the French. This is why I think I may have to preemptively strike the French right away now. The thing is that other than, as someone mentioned, the +1 to pikeman etc...the lands north of me are not overly inviting right now. Not compared to what is stationed all around the Mediterranean. Perhaps I'll attack France and use a kill/take no prisoners unless Nobles/pillage any provinces and destroy the buildings approach. At the same time, I can obviously be safer on the French front being on the attack there, and I can simply continue to protect Croatia from a Hun army that just does not have the power to break through my defenses. Not even close.

This strategy would also leave me focused to the west moreso than I am now...which would be nice since the Almohads are clearly, not a friend. (they were trying to get alliances with us for years...but at that point, it wasn't in our best interests. Now it is, but obviously...not in their best interests this time around).

If I can manage to push the French back in a way that assures me I don't have to worry about any significant invasion on that front, perhaps after my King dies I can see where things stand...and if I'm stable enough, just attack the Papacy, take both of his provinces including Rome and get used to maintaining stability during an Excomm for a long stretch. The only concern I would have would be any Crusades against my lands coming from the North. That's getting a little far ahead for right now though.

I'll take it as it comes, but in all reality- So far so good here.

edit: Adding this in- It's the battle log for the defensive battle I fought against the Hungarians in Croatia this previous turn...

Battle Type:: CAMPAIGN
Date:: 02/16/08
Time:: 00:21:14
Host:: N/A
Attackers:: The Hungarians
Defenders:: The Italians
Victory for:: DEFENDERS
Game Time:: 15 mins 15 secs
Battle Name:: Croatia
Map Name:: HillyInland03
Is Custom Map:: NO
Attackers' Florins:: 0
Defenders' Florins:: 0
Season:: Summer
Difficulty:: Medium
Time Limit:: No Limit
Game Style:: Last Man Standing
Unit Size:: 120
Limited Ammo:: on
Fatigue:: on
Morale:: on
Restricted Camera:: on
Battle Terminated How?:: BATTLE FOUGHT TO CLOSE


Player Name:: The Italians
--------------------------
Player Type:: HUMAN
Stance:: Defender
Florins Allocated:: 0
Florins Spent:: 0
Number of Units:: 26
Total Troop Count:: 3120
Total Men Killed:: 296
Total Men Captured:: 108
Total Men Routed:: 14
Total Enemy Killed:: 1075
Total Enemy Captured:: 0
General's Rank:: 5



Player Name:: The Hungarians
----------------------------
Player Type:: CPU
Stance:: Attacker
Florins Allocated:: 0
Florins Spent:: 0
Number of Units:: 22
Total Troop Count:: 2640
Total Men Killed:: 967
Total Men Captured:: 111
Total Men Routed:: 761
Total Enemy Killed:: 296
Total Enemy Captured:: 108
General's Rank:: 2

[Martok]

Hey Martok...

Hope things are going well for you...

1) No...I didn't send in an army to relieve the siege. Every unit that partook in that defensive battle was already in the province defending it before the Huns attacked there.

2) I was quite diligent in making sure that I didn't attack the Sicilians or Huns after I got my warnings. No naval attacks (although that last Sicilian Cog is going down now) no sallying, no nothing...

Again, perhaps it was the executing of the prisoners that did me in with the Pope. Still, I find it hard to believe that this action would do it by itself. It seems more likely to me that this is a matter of aggression/expansion in general. The Pope specifically didn't want me to take Sicily...yet I bypassed his ways and got it via a bribe on the garrison after I destroyed the army waiting in the field (and captured/ransomed their king).

The killing of Catholic prisoners wouldn't be cause for excommuniation, so we must look elsewhere for what prompted the action.

I'm actually wondering whether your bribing of Sicily's garrison was construed by the Pope as a "hostile move". Even though no blood was shed in doing so, it's possible the Papacy might still have viewed it as an act of aggression since it furthered your expansion at the expense of a fellow Catholic power. (I've utilized that tactic myself on rare occasions, but it's been so long since I last did so that I can't really remember how that worked in regards to being ex-commed.)


In any case, it sounds like you have the overall situation fairly well in hand. I would say the major wild card in all this -- which you've already picked up on -- is the Caliphate. If they control all of Iberia, then they could easily throw a big ol' monkey wrench into someone's plans. While the odds are they would most likely help you out in any slugging match between you & the French (southern France would be a very tempting target for the Almos), you're right in that they could also make significant mischief for yourself as well.

I would say your most immediate concern from the Almos is that the Caliph might direct his navy to attack your shipping in the Med. Given that, you may want to give some thought to increasing your fleet strength in the region, particularly in the seas surrounding Italy proper. This might very well be a case where the maxim "peace through superior firepower" could prevail.

[ArtistofWarfare]

Extremely interesting...I don't mind getting into the Almo discussion for a minute:



1) The Almos aren't at where you'd expect...almost (if not precisely) nothing has occurred on the Iberian peninsula thus far.

2) How I know is that until roughly 7 years ago, I had constant watch over everything in the med...west to east with all trade connected (black sea as well). I saw everything for like 40 years. The war with Sicily...didn't [B]require[B] my full naval attention, but what I did do was pull back everything west of corsica/sardina, barring a few ships on the coast of Aragon and France. I have been and still am allied with the Byzantines...Although I don't see how that can last long term. Egypt's a friend as well So I have constant, untouchable income, at least for now, from these trading partners. Let me mention that from basically Greece east, these are the only nations holding ports as well (byz eggy). edit- I also have to note that I still have intelligence in the Iberian, it's just via agent..and not constant naval.

3) I'm the Naval Superpower right now. I bounced between 19-25 ships at sea all throughout this war. Now after Sicily? I'll have shipbuilding capabilities in Corsica, Sardina, Croatia, Genoa, Venice, Sicily, and quite soon...Naples.

4) I mentioned pulling my navy back in the western med earlier...The other reason why was, very little trade was possible, even after my naval spam and camping ships outside there provinces with ports for like 40 years. They lacked traders, and where they had them- Just weren't worth selling goods to. I'm speaking specifically of the Almos here. The Spanish have a small land area but were worth trading with on one coast. The Aragon coast was just a connecting tile for me with no port.

So all of that being said- I haven't lost any sleep worrying about the almos at this point. They really have no way to attack me..and even if they do begin to build a large Navy, it will be attacked in piecemeal anyway. Especially if I can maintain alliances with the Byzantines and Egyptians. The Naval aspect shouldn't become too much of a problem.

It's almost as if several nations have simply ceded ground to me in the Mediterranean. I haven't been around to the western side of the Iberian Peninsula so I don't know about beyond that point, but I've seen the western shores of france and didn't notice any ships in the Naval tiles there either. This is the least amount of AI ships I've ever noticed in a MTW game...and I know that's not just because I haven't played in a while. It's remarkable. Further, I hold Sicily, Rhodes and Cyprus. Sicily already builds ships...and I could turn either Rhodes or Cyprus into a full blown Italian Province and keep the other one as is so it will still produce mercenaries...which I find an integral part of my tactics at this point.

This is also why things are quite interesting for myself right now as well. The Pope's irrelevant (he is...The only two nations he needs to worry about right now are France and myself and even after his excomm, we're just as powerful/unphased. France had no problem because of it either...high loyalty with a small army garrison in the province they just took from HRE, and their other provinces have 120+% loyalty even now. They took a bend...down from the 150's ...same as I did basically. But it's not a problem really...still very high taxes).

I'm not ready, obviously...but relatively shortly I may just invade France and the Almos. My two drawbacks to total committment to that plan is what's in front of me currently, as well as the fact that I just flat out could take any of the holy lands and do whatever I wanted with them, in literally 1 turn...any time I wanted to. It's obviously tempting and has been. But then we go back to that Egyptian alliance and ...it gets more complicated.

I'm starting to notice other factions tech'ing up slightly. It's ok as I am as well...and I was already ahead.

What I did notice was that the Almos have a ton of potential...but they're still allied with Spain and Aragon and they just...sit there. I don't quite understand why basically the entire Muslim world has been dormant so far. Off the European mainland you'd have to look to the Byzantines eating a few Turkish provinces to find any real activity.

Oh and lastly- I'm almost sure that the bribing of Sicily was tallied as a hostile action after warning. Now that you mentioned it, it seems very likely. I was already beginning to consider this in the back of my mind before I read your post.

Oh well, like I said...Cat's out of the bag.