A combination of Flanders, pikemen and XL

[Peasant Phill]

A have a few questions all of which may be posed at another part of the .Org but why do that when the Main Hall can combine all those threads into one and give the answers I need faster.

It's have been some months since I playedMTW but now I can start a new campaing (Xl early, Hard, French, GA) which I plan on playing through until 1453. This means that I will be using/facing pikemen at one time in the campaign.

Question # 1: Are vanilla pikemen worth using in the XL mod?
I know that spears and probably pikes were made better in the (new version of the) XL-mod but are they worth fielding them now or are they still only good for bridge and siege battles?

Question # 2: Would a valour bonus help make them fieldable in a normal battle if they are still outshone by alternatives?

And now we've come to where this valour bonus should be. I believe this could be in Flanders as the Flemish pikemen were not half bad.

Question # 3: Would Flanders, in your opinion as historian or amateur historian, be a good place to train better then average pikemen? Are there other places you thinbk are more historically correct to have a regional valour bonus?

Now comes the practical part of my thread. I have no experience in modding (well actually I have but I don't think it counts when it doesn't work).

Question # 4: How do you mod a regional valour bonus in? I really appreciate it if it was approached in a 'modding for dummies way'. I already have Gnome editor but I didn't find what I was looking for.

Thanks in advance

P.S. Question # 4: How can I make sure that the Papacy can crusade? Do I just need to give them a chapter house or is there more to it?

[macsen rufus]

1) & 2) I'll pass on, as I only tend to use pikes when I'm playing PMTW

3) I think Flanders would be a sensible place as any After all, the other famous pikemen are catered for with the Swiss variant.

4) Using Gnome, look for the column with "Region advantage" or similar at the top (can't quite recall the exact title, but it's right beside the faction/ruler advantage which gives a discount to a faction). Enter ID_FLANDERS into there it should do the trick If it helps identify it, the entry for Highland Clansmen will have ID_SCOTLAND in the same column, Urban Militia will have ID_TUSCANY etc etc

I haven't really messed around with crusades (except to disable them ) so not 100% sure - two things to check: in the unit_prod, see if the Crusade has any faction requirement, in the build_prod the same for Chapter House. I believe all that's required is to add the Chapter House.

[Aldgilles]

My two cents:

Flanders is a good place for pikemen +1 because in the 'Guldensporenslag' (Battle for the golden spurs) a peasant army clobbered an army of French knights. What they actually used was a 'Goedendag' , a heavy club with a dagger fixed on top, but since there isn't such a thing in the game, pikemen will do. The other area famous for pikeman-like troops is southern Germany from witch came 'Landsknechte' (pikemen) and perhaps Schotland from witch came 'Schiltron' troops (also some sort of pikemen). Pikemen can be good, but if you don't use them properly, they can be beaten by lesser troops.

[Peasant Phill]

Thanks already for the quick replies.

Flanders is a good place for pikemen +1 because in the 'Guldensporenslag' (Battle for the golden spurs) a peasant army clobbered an army of French knights. What they actually used was a 'Goedendag' , a heavy club with a dagger fixed on top, but since there isn't such a thing in the game, pikemen will do. The other area famous for pikeman-like troops is southern Germany from witch came 'Landsknechte' (pikemen) and perhaps Schotland from witch came 'Schiltron' troops (also some sort of pikemen). Pikemen can be good, but if you don't use them properly, they can be beaten by lesser troops.

I actually live only 10 km from the battle grounds (or what's left of it) of the battle of the golden spurs so I'm well aware of what it ment (first time a fully unmounted army won against a mounted army). There were at least as much pikemen as there were goedendag-men as they were formed up one next to the other.

Were the landsknechts/Scottish pikemen better than their Flemish counterparts?

Apparently Pikemen already get a bonus in Tyrolia. Can two provinces provide a valour bonus?

[Aldgilles]

I actually live only 10 km from the battle grounds (or what's left of it) of the battle of the golden spurs so I'm well aware of what it ment (first time a fully unmounted army won against a mounted army). There were at least as much pikemen as there were goedendag-men as they were formed up one next to the other.

I stand corrected.

Apparently Pikemen already get a bonus in Tuscany. Can two provinces provide a valour bonus?

I thought standard pikemen got a bonus in Tirol? But as far as I know a unit can have several bonus provinces.

As far as I know, the Swiss pikemen were by far the best pikemen you could get, IF you could afford them (they weren't cheap!). Other types of pikemen were good against cavalry (in a defensive roll) but lacked the training to attack the enemy with those unwieldy pikes. The Swiss were the first to drill their pikeunits so they could really fight as one man (they also were the first ones to introduce marching to the drum). The Schiltrons were a Schottisch invention to counter the English knights, but they were a more static, defensive formation (whitch meant you could pummel them from a distance with bows). The German landsknechte were a copy from the Swiss but generally considered second rate (but a lot cheaper). Although I have a recollection of some battle were the Swiss were beaten by the Germans in their own game.

first time a fully unmounted army won against a mounted army

Umm, I think not, already in 1227 a peasant army of Drentse boeren (farmers) beat a knights army lead by the bishop of Utrecht (this battle was on a much smaller scale, but still knights were beaten by peasants).

[Peasant Phill]

You're right, it's Tyrolia where there is a pikemen bonus.

You may be correct on the whole mounted vs. unmounted defeat, I'm just reproducing what I heard and read. I do know that apparently the news of the battle near Kortrijk was important enough to let the pope know as soon as possible. The scale will probably have been a large factor.

[macsen rufus]

Can two provinces provide a valour bonus?

Yes, but one of them might be "invisible" on the campaign map (in the same way as spies don't show as having a valour bonus in Syria - although it might be down to having two units in one province with a bonus). So suck it and see - the worst that can happen is the game won't start, in which case take it out again. And you will need quotes as in: "ID_province1, ID_province2"

[Peasant Phill]

Well I modded it and the campaign started just fine. What I've noticed is that only the first province in the collum gets the 'historical' bonus text.

Now it's just waiting until I can build Flemish pikes

[Aldgilles]

There is no doubt the battle of the golden spurs was far more important than the battle by Ane, that's for sure. I think at the battle of the golden spurs the Flemish fought exceptionally well because they were defending their homes and people, at later battles (Pevelenberg) they were not that exceptional (but still good).
Another question, I know Urban Militia gets a bonus in Tuscany, and Pikemen get a bonus in Tyrol, but is there a province in witch the Militia Sergeants get a bonus? None as far as I know, and wich province would be suitable for such a bonus (if any)?

Good luck with your campaign!

[Ravencroft]

Yeah, there are none.

My suggestion though, would be Cordoba, as Granada gets a bonus for AUMs, and Militia Sergeants are shared by Catholics, Russians and the Almohads(Militia for iberians make sense). PS. I'm gonna do that in my rather heavily moddered unit_prod file (hehe)

[Aldgilles]

I think your're right, Ravencroft, somewhere on the Spanish peninsula would be spot-on. I would choose Portucale, however for in the XL game they also have some special troops (called 'Besteiros') so perhaps historically this area would be more suitable.

[seireikhaan]

Hmm, sorry if I'm going to seem a downer here, but I have one reservation about giving a valor bonus to pikes in Flanders. The AI always shoots straight towards the facilities which allow training of an extra valor unit. Example, see how the HRE almost always develops Switzerland in some kind of mad, haphazard, way that includes building militia buildings and almost nothing else. Its fine for Switzerland, as its a dirt poor province anyways, but Flanders is so very rich that I fear giving the pike bonus there will cause the AI to abandon building farmland in the province, thus depriving the AI a lot of income and causing it to potentially flounder. Just my

[Martok]

Hmm, sorry if I'm going to seem a downer here, but I have one reservation about giving a valor bonus to pikes in Flanders. The AI always shoots straight towards the facilities which allow training of an extra valor unit. Example, see how the HRE almost always develops Switzerland in some kind of mad, haphazard, way that includes building militia buildings and almost nothing else. Its fine for Switzerland, as its a dirt poor province anyways, but Flanders is so very rich that I fear giving the pike bonus there will cause the AI to abandon building farmland in the province, thus depriving the AI a lot of income and causing it to potentially flounder. Just my

That's exactly what's happened in caravel's Pocket Mod. After he placed a Pikemen bonus in Flanders, whoever owns the province almost immediately begins teching up to be able to train pikemen there -- to the detriment of everything else (including farm upgrades). The next version of the Pocket Mod will probably have most (if not all) valour bonuses removed from the map because of this.

[caravel]

That's exactly what's happened in caravel's Pocket Mod. After he placed a Pikemen bonus in Flanders, whoever owns the province almost immediately begins teching up to be able to train pikemen there -- to the detriment of everything else (including farm upgrades). The next version of the Pocket Mod will probably have most (if not all) valour bonuses removed from the map because of this.

The next version, if I can ever get working on it again that is, will/does have all valour bonuses removed, and plays ten times better as a result.

[Martok]

The next version, if I can ever get working on it again that is, will/does have all valour bonuses removed, and plays ten times better as a result.

[Peasant Phill]

Thanks for the warning. I'll keep that in mind when playing some other faction.

[Aldgilles]

Hmm, sorry if I'm going to seem a downer here, but I have one reservation about giving a valor bonus to pikes in Flanders. The AI always shoots straight towards the facilities which allow training of an extra valor unit.

Hmm, that puts a damper on the whole picknick...

[caravel]

Yes, but one of them might be "invisible" on the campaign map (in the same way as spies don't show as having a valour bonus in Syria - although it might be down to having two units in one province with a bonus). So suck it and see - the worst that can happen is the game won't start, in which case take it out again. And you will need quotes as in: "ID_province1, ID_province2"

To expand upon this: Two provinces can be assigned the same valour bonus for the same unit but AFAIK only the first listed will actually work. I've tested this for Chivalric Knights where I changed the CFK bonus in Toulouse to a second bonus for CK. Only the first bonus actually worked. You can add valour bonuses for different units to a single province however, as described above by macsen rufus.