Battle accounts and discussion

[Ironsword]

^^ Sounds interesing, but dont lose all hope against those crusaders as...

...Not two days past I had a massive Polish faction reappaearing in my territory with a whopping 5,098 troops to my 856. I moved an eight star general to the territory, but could only spare another 80 Arbalestors to join him, so this brought my total to 938 (300 Halbs, 196 Arbs, 95 LongB's, Mangonel, Culverin, 143 Feudal sergeants and rest were Hobilars (Including 8* general).
They attacked with Pikes, PavC's, RK's, Halb's. Their general was 4* too. Although, here's the trick, their general charged straight into my line and was cut down early on. Leaving their army demoralised and up against an 8*. Never before in my campaigns have the humble Hobilars done so much damage!! They took over 1500 prisoners and chased the Pikes off the field.

And, for the first time in my battles it was snowing...! Ah.

[Ironsword]

^^ Apologies for appalling spelling; I was typing quickly and can't yet edit posts...!

[Heidrek]

The battle against the Crusader States grinds on......I currently hold over 4000 prisoners, as the Crusaders continue to feed more and more troops into my meat grinder "Kill Squads". I'd estimate thier total losses at over 12,000 in total by now.

One interesting development though, and one that could change the course of the battle:

Recently, after yet another harrowing defeat the latest batch of Crusader reinforcements formed up out of range, towards their end of the map. This consisted of 1 x Halb, 1 x Hobilar, 1 x Royal Knights, 1 x Order Footsoldeirs, 1 x Pavise Xbows, 1 x Arqubusiers and 1 x Arbalesters. Possibly some handgunners and Javelin men too. All in all, about 400-500 men. They all bunched in together on top of each other like a compact little ball.

I figured they were just waiting for the rest of their reinforcements to join them, but no more arrived. I waited, and waited and waited patiently for them to attack but nothing happened. A few new units showed up in the distance, but immediately withdrew again. Finally no new units arrived and they just sat there......

Could they have come to the end of their troops I thought? why else wouldn't they bring up more? This could be my chance to finish the battle for good! Slowly I moved my full force towards their knot of troops. Formed up my archery troops, 1 x Welsh longbows and 1 x Arbalsters and started pelting them with missiles. Still no response, not even returned fire. After unloading all of my missiles into them, I sent in my infantry to finish them off. A sickening slaughter ensued as I surrounded and butchered them.

As soon as they broke though, a whole string of new reinforcements appeared and marched towards my diorganised army. I quickly reformed my forces and met them just inside the map border. However, unable to manouver properly I could not execute my tactics well, and was also faced with reinrocements constantly appearing on the horizon while my beleagured troops endeavoured to drive their remaining troops into retreat. Losses slowly became about 1:1, and some of my units broke, triggering a mass rout.

I'm now retreating towards my original position, having lost more troops than in the previous 5-6 exchanges but having learned a valuable lesson. Don't try and hold the map border. I should have killed the knot of troops then withdrawn back to tackle reinforcements on home turf. The lure of sealing the victory there and then simply proved too strong. Even after this bad engagements the kill ratio is still roughly 5:1, but now I have to get basicallya whole new army of reinforcements, hopefully there will a good assortment of units in the reinforcements, otherwise I could have a problem!

[Jxrc]

Don't try and hold the map border.

Wise advice that I sometimes forget when attacking and too impatient to finish the battle ... Even if the enemy general has been killed, troops chasing routers will get disorganised and tired and will have a hard time coping with fresh reinforcements (esp fresh cavalry) ... Not too bad if you just loose a few isolated cavalry units sacrified to chase routers, more of a problem if your whole army is closely following.

Happened to me a few times but the worst instance was a x-hours battle with the GH in Khazar. Managed to kill the Khan and eveything was going nicely. Thought that they had run out of fresh troops, got daring and chased what I thought would be their last units from the map ... Got to the edge and 12 new unites appeared (mostly MHC, MHA) and routed my exhausted halbs and that was it ... Had to withdraw ... Lost Khazar to the rebels (about 6 ou 8 thousand remaing troops that had fled) ... Few turns later there was a Russian loyalist revolt in another prov and the rest of the GH became light blue. In such cases, I tend to utter a word that starts with an "f" ....

[Heidrek]

Ok, so I managed to retreat to my starting position and withdrew my battered army and bring on a fresh set of troops. ended up with a pretty good line up actually and was all set to continue slaughtering the Crusaders.

Once again they grouped almost all their troops into the "knot formation" and just stood there. A few scattered units (one damaged Mitia sergeants, an almost whole Arbalesters unit, a unit of Halbardiers and a mauled 25 man unit of Order Footsoldiers sat scattered in different parts of the map behind the knot.

I waited patiently, determined not to get greedy again. Waited some more. Put the time slider up to 100% and waited a while more. Still nothing. Do I just run out the clock? I could, but thats not how I want to win this fight.

Instead I decided to test a theory. I had 2 units of light cavalry, a Hobilars and a Steppe Cavalry. I took these two and moved them over to where the damaged Militia Sergeants units was standing around. Put both Cavalry units into Wedge formation and charged the MS from 2 sides. They routed almost immediately. I lost 1 hobilar and 2 SC and killed/captured all 40 MS.

Still no reaction from the Knot. A unit of Feudal Sergeants appeared on the horizon and moved to join his knot buddies. It's like they are paralysed or something - didn't even try to come to the aid of their slaughtered friends.

I waited some more and then got tired of waiting..... I brought up a couple of half strength spear units, some melee troops, the two cavalry units and my two archery units, an Arbalesters and Welsh Longbows. I left the general and a bunch of other troops back at home base in case of disaster.

formed up the assault squad and set my archers on the Knot. They tried to shoot back, but only managed to kill 3 of my guys due to their cramped position. They've brought in 2 more units and added them to the knot but haven't withdrawn and troops despite the constant missile storm. Soon I'll from up my melee troops and crush the knot. then withdraw them and see what happens.

Has anyone else experienced the "Knot Formation" before? Seems like a good way to throw away troops to me.....

If that's all he's going to do now, I'm thinking I can wrap this battle up pretty quickly from here on in.

[Martok]

Ah, to try and hold the edge of the map (against the enemy's reinforcements) or not.....a classic conundrum!

Unfortunately, I find that the answer of whether or not to do so is "it depends". What kind of units is your army composed of, and what kind of reinforcements is your opponent bringing on? What's the overall state of your army, in terms of morale/fatigue/ammo? Exactly how many reinforcments does the enemy have?

The simple fact is, there are too many variables that factor in to say whether it's usually beneficial to try and hold the edge or not. I myself tend to be conservative and hold my army back at or near its original position, but that's admittedly not always the smartest thing to do. My best friend -- also an MTW afficianado -- is more apt to simply move his army back & forth, depending how the battle continues to unfold.

Has anyone else experienced the "Knot Formation" before? Seems like a good way to throw away troops to me.....

Not that I'm aware of. It sounds rather like a bug in the AI.

[Jxrc]

Ah, to try and hold the edge of the map (against the enemy's reinforcements) or not.....a classic conundrum!

Unfortunately, I find that the answer of whether or not to do so is "it depends". What kind of units is your army composed of, and what kind of reinforcements is your opponent bringing on? What's the overall state of your army, in terms of morale/fatigue/ammo? Exactly how many reinforcments does the enemy have?

The simple fact is, there are too many variables that factor in to say whether it's usually beneficial to try and hold the edge or not. I myself tend to be conservative and hold my army back at or near its original position, but that's admittedly not always the smartest thing to do.

All in all, IMHO, it seems to me that trying to hold the map edge is almost always a mistake cause:

- the AI reinforcement will attack when still being fully fresh;
- there a good chance that the AI units will appear at slighlty different places and there is a good chance that by doing so the new unit will be in a position to flank your already engaged units;
- in some instances, you'll see that some AI missile unit start shooting at you while you cannot attack them cause they are not in an accessible part of the map;
- you loose any chance to capture routers;
- if things go wrong your own reinforcement will take ages to get to you and the AI will have ages to chase you....

AT first glance, I would say that holding the map edge is only worth it if you are attacking and need to beat the clock ....

Of course all of that is quite nice and everything cause it does not take into account one major factor: boredom. Always tempting to finish battles with the GH as soon as possible. Not a smart move cause it's a real pain in the neck to fight a battle for two hours and blew it cause you could not wait for an extra half an hour. My tip in such cases, hit the pause button and get something to eat or drink .... Do as I say, don't do as I did indeed

[ArtistofWarfare]

Wise advice that I sometimes forget when attacking and too impatient to finish the battle ... Even if the enemy general has been killed, troops chasing routers will get disorganised and tired and will have a hard time coping with fresh reinforcements (esp fresh cavalry) ... Not too bad if you just loose a few isolated cavalry units sacrified to chase routers, more of a problem if your whole army is closely following.

Happened to me a few times but the worst instance was a x-hours battle with the GH in Khazar. Managed to kill the Khan and eveything was going nicely. Thought that they had run out of fresh troops, got daring and chased what I thought would be their last units from the map ... Got to the edge and 12 new unites appeared (mostly MHC, MHA) and routed my exhausted halbs and that was it ... Had to withdraw ... Lost Khazar to the rebels (about 6 ou 8 thousand remaing troops that had fled) ... Few turns later there was a Russian loyalist revolt in another prov and the rest of the GH became light blue. In such cases, I tend to utter a word that starts with an "f" ....

Well, in basically all warfare pre-dating WW2 (but still in WW2 at times...the huge surge in mobilization and mechanized infantry changed things a bit though, to say the least) victory in a battle regularly came down to that decisive moment where the commander of the side with the advantage at the time had to "flip the switch" so to speak and put the nail in the coffin. One would think this is the time where the winning side is at it's most advantageous, but in reality...this is often the time where they're most vulnerable. All offensive attacks involve high risk...all of them. Defense is almost always the preferable position...and this doesn't go out the window just because you have some routing units on the field of battle.

Now, Medieval Warfare was extremely tactical and highly complex (and why so many of us are interested in it) due to changes in cavalry usage and also...armor. Heavily armored units obviously move slower and tire more easily. These units, although extremely effective, can be extremely vulnerable when in pursuit. Now, in this case we're talking about Golden Horde and we already know that against almost every faction in the game, they have a cavalry and mobility advantage. Chasing these units to the edge of the map is always going to be extremely risky because you're extending yourself with units that can't move back to their original position realistically at all without turning their backs and being vulnerable during a rally.

I like to incorporate a strategy that leads me to fielding an army (often) that very much resembles the concepts and ideas of the Roman Empire's infantry. Moving wall "legions" that are going to push forward, paced, and gradually control more and more of the map. Gradually moving these units in a way that "boxes in" or "pins down" the enemy is the idea here...never over committing or spreading your vanguard too far apart. The entire strength of these units lies in their cohesiveness and discipline. Let the enemy rally and counter attack your infantry- If it was too much for them to handle in the first place, their secondary attacks will probably be too much too.

Now if it's simply reinforcements we're dealing with here- You're still going to be ok against them. Again- By appropriately moving your units and boxing the enemy in, your going to be giving reinforcements little option but to just charge head first into your moving wall infantry. Further, the more you advance, the less room they will have to charge or form formations before attacking your positions.

As far as my cavalry goes: The majority of my time, I like to separate my Cavalry in the following way: 1) The spearhead. The majority of my shock cavalry all grouped together. Hundreds, if not thousands of heavy horses in one giant clump. 2) The General and his bodyguard obviously, grouped with another royal knights unit or with just an auxilliary cavalry unit to protect his flank. 3) The lightest of the Cavalry will be grouped together will the sole purpose of being my screening unit. These will be the horsemen who chase routers.

Without going too in depth here- You can get an idea of what this would look like. Huge infantry vanguard. Major right or left hook of heavy cavalry off and to the flank. Screening unit placed wherever it would make most sense. General and his bodyguards in the rear behind the infantry, most protected.

The idea is to force the enemy to wind up in an early, heavy slugfest with your infantry vanguard and to get things positioned nicely so that you always have the opportunity to flank the enemy with your heavy cavalry. Think along the lines of two kids chasing eachother around the kitchen table. Your infantry is the table. Just keep the infantry advancing and holding it's lines.

Whenever units start to route, chase them with your smaller screening force of Cavalry. Whenever you encounter a pocket of enemy resistance that is breaking your lines or causing too much trouble, hit them with that large right or left hook using your heavy cavalry cluster. The idea is to round them, get the flank secured, and then charge crashing directly through their lines...from the side right through the center (or rear). While this is going on, your infantry is still in place...holding it's center and moving forward. Again...when units start to route, do NOT chase them with your heavy cavalry, or begin running with your infantry to close the gap and chase them down. Use your screening force...this is what it's for.

No matter how many enemy rally's or groups of reinforcements come into play, you continue to just address them with this same process. Engage with Infantry while keeping your heavy cavalry in a large group, constantly playing a game of angles, keeping a flanking opportunity open. Whenever you need to chase units or close the gap on the battlefield, you're going to be doing so with the screening units, and therefore never separating your main army.

Considering that rallying/reinforcement units come back toward you in piecemeal, you're putting these small groups of units in a position where they constantly have to just forward charge your main vanguard infantry, and risk being flanked by hundreds of heavy cavalry. There's no rush or reason to break your formation to chase the routers or get to reinforcements who have arrived on the field. You'll be winning, the enemy will not and you'll continue to have a large, cohesive, organized army moving toward it's objectives.

Lastly- The other major advantage this gives you is that it basically forces the enemy to have a superior infantry AND cavalry than you do. If either one is not up to par with your forces, they're going to have a very difficult time beating you. If they have an inferior infantry, and choose to instead engage your infantry with their heavy cavalry initially, they've just opened their supposedly superior units (their cavalry) to a flank by your own heavy cav. If their Cavalry is inferior, they're going to rely on their infantry...again, it's going to be open to that cavalry flank.

In order to really stand toe to toe with you, they would need an infantry and cavalry that can, separately, outmatch your infantry/cavalry. You're forcing this upon them by keeping your two types of units (infantry/cav) separate and en' mass. What are they going to do- Split their entire army on the field of battle? Exactly

Remember...there is no rush. They could have 30 units of reinforcements coming...just continue to stick to the plan and address things as they unfold. Any giant counter attack they perform will still have to deal with a massive infantry cluster, and also watch both flanks for a massive cavalry charge. No matter what your enemy does, it still will have the same problem to deal with.

[Heidrek]

The problem with defending the map edge is that it more or less negates your cavalry and tactical manuverability as you can't move in behind the enemy units. also, how do you handle armiés with plenty of polearms/spears to counter your cavalry or a lot of Missile units, particularly horse archers and mounted xbows that can out manuver your infantry and slower heavy cav?

[ArtistofWarfare]

The problem with defending the map edge is that it more or less negates your cavalry and tactical manuverability as you can't move in behind the enemy units. also, how do you handle armiés with plenty of polearms/spears to counter your cavalry or a lot of Missile units, particularly horse archers and mounted xbows that can out manuver your infantry and slower heavy cav?

Well, good intelligence on the enemy is always a given.

If you know your enemy has a ranged/missile advantage on you, you would never line up on the edge of the map no.

In general, there are going to be situations where you're just screwed...yeah. At that point we're talking about long term logistical issues...You're losing before you've even stepped onto the battlefield.