Ah, Pinal County, AZ - Or Why I Hate Government

[Crazed Rabbit]

Watch the video (hosted by Drew Carey!):
http://reason.tv/video/show/59.html

And comment. Pay close attention to the amount of money the Bells have been fined or forced to spend.

CR

[seireikhaan]

Utterly ridiculous-whoever re-enacted that ordinace should be fired.

[Tribesman]

And comment.

So what .
Its a business , if its a business it has to comply with local regulations , if you don't like the local regulations then don't open one there , if you do want to open one there then either comply with the regulations or get the regulations changed before you open for business .

Pay close attention to the amount of money the Bells have been fined or forced to spend.

They were not forced to spend anything , if they wanted a business there then they should have allocated all that money in their business plan to ensure they were compliant with all regulations . It was their choice .
As for the fines , well it appears they are for breaking the rules , going by that video they are still of their own choice racking up fines for breaking the rules .

[JAG]

Well said Tribe! Cry babies, big time cry babies.

The govt did get a complaint, not as if they just decided to do it.

If I was the county govt, I would attack them with everything I had - cry babies.

[Crazed Rabbit]

So what .
Its a business , if its a business it has to comply with local regulations blah blah blah.

So, once again, you take the position of obedience and submission to whatever the government decrees.

Do you think people should never argue or try to fight the government in the courts if they disagree with something the government does?

How smoothly you ignore the fact that new regulations were added after they started their business - kind shoots your second paragraph to shreds.

Well said Tribe! Cry babies, big time cry babies.

The govt did get a complaint, not as if they just decided to do it.

If I was the county govt, I would attack them with everything I had - cry babies.

So you think it's fair for the government to fine a business because people are dancing?

That it's acceptable to use law as a bludgeon against people you don't like?

That any complaint justifies massive retaliation and exceedingly restrictive regulations?

Socialism never was about freedom, was it? It's about control. Control those scumball peasants and show them that the government will make them bend, that it doesn't matter what the situation is or who's right - only that the government will win.

CR

[Lemur]

Local governments can be the worst. Sad story. JAG, Tribes, I'm kinda shocked that you're so vehemently in support of an absurd law against dancing being used as a bludgeon against a small business. Clearly there's some hanky-panky going on, since it's not as though the neighbors are complaining.

Watch this video and give me your reaction. Once again, a small local governmental body asserts itself in the most aggressive, brutal way. But I'm guessing that since it's an individual, and not a small business, you will be appalled.

[HoreTore]

Socialism never was about freedom, was it? It's about control. Control those scumball peasants and show them that the government will make them bend, that it doesn't matter what the situation is or who's right - only that the government will win.

Excuse me? When did the US turn into a socialist state? I do believe your outrage here is rather misplaced.

As for the story itself - they're idiots, pure and simple. The government, not the restaurant....

[JAG]

I think it is fair to say that I was taking the piss a little bit and I just felt like playing up to a sterotype so CR could get his angst out ;)

Gave him some pleasure I am sure.

Of course it is suspect and needs looking at, I am a liberal and one that believes in local democracy and people having more direct control over most matters, so it is clearly worrying for me, even if it isn't over here.

However as Tribe says - it is not necessarily all the govts fault. Maybe in this case it is suspect and maybe govt has a case to answer, but a lot of time in cases like this, local business' just don't wanna play by the rules or adapt to local govt legislation that is there not to punish them, but for very valid reasons.

[HoreTore]

very valid reasons.

BAH!

You know very well that there's never a valid reason to whatever local governments are doing.

Oh, and to add to the discussion - a city here in Norway, Tønsberg(which is governed by a far-right party btw), is banning the sale of hot dogs and hamburgers after midnight(or 23.00, not sure) in the weekends - to combat drunken violence...

And at the same time, they're fighting for bars to stay open longer, and let more places serve alcohol...

The joys of the local government...

[Crazed Rabbit]

Excuse me? When did the US turn into a socialist state? I do believe your outrage here is rather misplaced.

As for the story itself - they're idiots, pure and simple. The government, not the restaurant....

JAG's a socialist, and he supports this. Of course, now that he realizes noone besides tribesy supports this he's backpedaling.

local govt legislation that is there not to punish them, but for very valid reasons.

Like banning dancing? Harassment on every aspect of their business?

Maybe we should take a skeptical eye towards all government actions, presume them 'guilty' and make them prove their innocence - make them prove their case every time.

CR

[HoreTore]

JAG's a socialist, and he supports this. Of course, now that he realizes noone besides tribesy supports this he's backpedaling.

Forget about who supports it, your capitalist government is doing it. I'd say it's much fairer to say that capitalism is based on control, based on this case.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Ah, but everyone in the story was against the government's actions - even the neighbor who was against the restaurant initially. All Americans posted in this thread - from a range of the ideological spectrums - are against it.

Yes, our government is doing it, but they are not following capitalistic principles, and the people are against it, which will hopefully lead to change.

CR

[Tribesman]

So, once again, you take the position of obedience and submission to whatever the government decrees.

No , but if you want to play with the local government you play by their rules until they are changed .

Do you think people should never argue or try to fight the government in the courts if they disagree with something the government does?

No , you fight them in the courts , until you win you get those fines and costs that you are moaning about ...since it is you that is moaning about the fines and costs do you think that people hould never try to fight the government in the courts ? fines and costs are part of it

How smoothly you ignore the fact that new regulations were added after they started their business - kind shoots your second paragraph to shreds.

No , since new regulations are added all the time , its what governments do , add new regulations and get rid of old ones .

Like banning dancing? Harassment on every aspect of their business?

Whats wrong with that ? If he opened a bar selling acohol in a town that had an ordinace banning alcohol should he be allowed to ignore it ?
Opening an establishment for dancing requires licensing , same as it does for playing music to the public , singing , gambling , drinking , serving food .
All of those have regulations and conditions applied to them for every business , and if you want to run a business that does any or all of those then you have to either comply with all of those or pay the cost for choosing not to comply .

[HoreTore]

All Americans posted in this thread - from a range of the ideological spectrums - are against it.

How do you get a "range of the ideological spectrums" from 2 people?

[Csargo]

Looks like someone is trying to get some land or someone just doesn't like the guy. It is a sad thing honestly.

I'm not sure why you're arguing Tribes there's really no point. The guy is fighting it legally and I don't see how you're supposed to stop people from dancing. It is an ordinance that doesn't make sense imo and never should have been enacted in the first place.

[Fragony]

Nice business, would be a shame if something happened to it

[JAG]

JAG's a socialist, and he supports this. Of course, now that he realizes noone besides tribesy supports this he's backpedaling.

lol, I support taking babies from their mothers at birth and institutionalising them for thier own 'best interests' too!

[HoreTore]

lol, I support taking babies from their mothers at birth and institutionalising them for thier own 'best interests' too!

Who doesn't?

[KukriKhan]

The guy came whirling into town from out-of-state (Wyoming), lured by the cheap real estate in Arizona at the time, and requested his newly-bought 7 acres be re-zoned from rural to urban, so he could build a 'rustic country restaurant'. County said: OK.

So he built that 'rustic country restaurant', and added a bar, a stage and an open-air dance floor. Those changes put him athwart other county and state ordinances and licensing requirements. He's trying to dodge those "extra" requirements. The county is clumsily trying to enforce a 1950's 'blue-law' that should have been stricken 40 years ago.

The owner is a retired Reagan-era politico, who knows how to work courts and the media. County taxpayers are footing the bill for this whole exercise, that Mr. Bell will probably win.

He's operated using the same strategy in Wyoming and South Dakota successfully in the past.

If the "I just wanted to teach my 12-year old son how a business works" line doesn't click your 'something stinks here'-o-meter, I just don't know what would.

[JAG]

[Fragony]

So more government agency's want protectionmoney, so people can dance there so bloody what. If the government wants more money they should take a job and stop harrassing what makes their pink clouds float, investment. If people behaved like governments you would call the police.

[Vladimir]

Forget about who supports it, your capitalist government is doing it.

Supported by the neo-con military industrial complex funded by CIA crack sales to inner-city blacks no doubt .

[Xiahou]

If people behaved like governments you would call the police.

Great line.

[Tribesman]

If the "I just wanted to teach my 12-year old son how a business works" line doesn't click your 'something stinks here'-o-meter, I just don't know what would.

He did teach him about business ....

Those changes put him athwart other county and state ordinances and licensing requirements. He's trying to dodge those "extra" requirements. The county is clumsily trying to enforce a 1950's 'blue-law' that should have been stricken 40 years ago.

...when you try to dodge local laws concerning your business the local authorities will fully enforce every law they can find that applies .

I'm not sure why you're arguing Tribes there's really no point.

Thats simple Ichi , because the bloke is a media whore who is trying to play the poor innocent victim and its all a bollox act .

The guy is fighting it legally and I don't see how you're supposed to stop people from dancing.

All the time he is permitting his premesis to be in violation of the regulations he is not fighting it legally . As for stopping people dancing thats easy , you ask them to stop , then you tell them to stop , then you throw them off the premesis .


Look at this muppets list of complaints .... firewood , yep thats health and safety and food hygene regulations he didn't want to follow .... car parking , planning and public safety regulations he didn't want to follow ....road signage , planning permission again and they could throw in public safetyregulations he didn't want to follow .... noise control, yep thats normal even if you don't have music , but he didn't want to follow it .
Face it this bloke is a dick who is selling you the "OMG they don't like dancing line" and most of you that posted have swallowed it hook line and sinker

[Husar]

Heh, the wood burning thing actually made me think there could be a reason to it, next they're going to burn plastics and then ask what's wrong about it.
That still doesn't mean dancing outside should be forbidden, if that is what this really is about. Even if it's a business I'd like to see the reason why they would need a license or so to allow people to dance.

[Tribesman]

Heh, the wood burning thing actually made me think there could be a reason to it

Simple reasons too , unless of course you think wood is just wood and its all the same so you should be allowed to burn whatever you like in your restaurant .

[Fragony]

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