It's not the Moslems, honest guv!

[macsen rufus]

"Catholic extremists"

that's not a phrase that's been used in the UK since Mr Fawkes, AFAIK - the IRA and various splinters were invariably refered to as "Irish nationalists" or "Irish Republicans", and again both of those terms covered a grouping much wider than the armed bodies that existed within them. Not all such republicans/nationalists supported the "armed struggle", though many did, and not all that supported it took part. Even then, the term was often "paramilitary" as opposed to "terrorist" (and the same applied to the 'loyalist/unionist' side, too).

Ludicrous though the NewSpeak Dictionary may appear from some angles, the point behind it is to divorce the extremists from the community whose name they invoke for their 'legitimacy'. Part of the success in cooling things down in northern Ireland was Sinn Fein's realisation that to maintain the credibility of representing their community meant they had to embrace that community's weariness of violence, and promote their interests through the democratic process. I think generally most of the Muslim community in Britain is pretty thankful they live here rather than an Islamic state, and the same processes have to be mobilised to isolate and ostracise Islamic terrorists. The big difference is I don't really see a strong political entity in the muslim community that is on a par with Sinn Fein in Ireland, so the ground is too easy for the whackjobs to occupy

[Ignoramus]

Once again we see the craziness of PC.

[ICantSpellDawg]

capitulation

What a joke. Tell me this isn't the exact thought process that we have been fighting against in the United States for years.

What is the Anglican church? Is it just the ferryman to international Rainbow Islam? No wonder Blair converted immediately after leaving office. What is the point of being an Anglican?

All of the pomp and circumstance of the RC church, none of the conviction or common sense. PLUS it was started by someone for the reason of divorcing his wife more easily and annexing the church coffers.

First Heresy, then Blasphemy.

EDIT: way to beat me to it RVG

[rvg]

What a joke. Tell me this isn't the exact thought process that we have been fighting against in the United States for years.

What is the Anglican church? Is it just the ferryman to international Rainbow Islam? No wonder Blair converted immediately after leaving office. What is the point of being an Anglican?

All of the pomp and circumstance of the RC church, none of the conviction or common sense. PLUS it was started by someone for the reason of divorcing his wife more easily and annexing the church coffers.

First Heresy, then Blasphemy.

You know, Tuff, my heart aches for Europe when I see something like this happening. All the disagreements aside, if Europe falls to this, it will be our defeat as well. If that happens, I will honestly miss Europe for absolutely unselfish reasons.

[Banquo's Ghost]

I must admit, that when I saw this story, I was fuming with outrage too and very nearly bought a Daily Mail for succour.

However, on reflection, and on reading Dr William's actual comments more thoroughly, it becomes apparent that he was advocating the option of having Shari'a available to Muslim citizens for activities such as divorce and inheritance - not for flogging or stoning. The challenge - which we have faced in discussing this subject in the Backroom - is that Shari'a has rather too many schools of thought - and has been tainted, perhaps irrevocably, by the fundamentalist loonies' version.

The principle of integrating religious groups' rules into law is well established. Britain has a blasphemy law, for example, that only applies to Christian sensibilities. Orthodox Jews have religious courts where the faithful go to resolve disputes, and the decisions of these courts are upheld in British law. Recently, Roman Catholic prelates tried to force the government to exempt them from the laws on adoption so their agencies could refuse to place children with gay couples. I didn't read too many right-wing commentators wailing at the end of European civilisation at that prospect. (Quite a lot of lefties though ).

I believe that Dr Williams was trying to address Muslim concerns by suggesting a similar parallel system, operated by the consent of both parties, might be appropriate. I fear he has, in the manner of churchmen, been kack-handed in his commentary, and a little disingenuous about the reality of Islamic practices, even moderate, in relation to women's rights and the pressures put on women to conform, for example. But he is emphatically not calling for the Caliphate.

In fact, what Dr Williams should be castigated for - and where he should have been guilty of a strategic mistake - is the idea that religion has any standing at all in law-making. Why should believers have parallel legal rights unavailable to the unbeliever? For pity's sake, anglicanism has the right to appoint men to the legislature - let alone the Christian influence on law in the UK. It doesn't matter if it is Islam, Christianity or Scientology - law should be secular, and the idea that there is one law for all, each of whom is equal before it, should mean that religious favours should be withdrawn from all these lobby groups.

[InsaneApache]

Cack handed indeed BQ.

In fact, what Dr Williams should be castigated for - and where he should have been guilty of a strategic mistake - is the idea that religion has any standing at all in law-making. Why should believers have parallel legal rights unavailable to the unbeliever? For pity's sake, anglicanism has the right to appoint men to the legislature - let alone the Christian influence on law in the UK. It doesn't matter if it is Islam, Christianity or Scientology - law should be secular, and the idea that there is one law for all, each of whom is equal before it, should mean that religious favours should be withdrawn from all these lobby groups.

Then the deluded one says....

Dr Rowan Williams told Radio 4's World at One that the UK has to "face up to the fact" that some of its citizens do not relate to the British legal system.

I'm one of those. My recent speeding ticket was a travesty, a travestry I tell thee. Can I have my money back now? It does make you wonder what planet these pillocks live on. Si thee.

[Fragony]

You know, Tuff, my heart aches for Europe when I see something like this happening.

Not europe just the UK, we are a lot less nuts here, almost seems like they are having a pc-contest there. Nothing is being taken it is given away. And it's so terribly simple, this is who we are, and this is what we expect from you. All it takes is a respectable distance.

[Tribesman]

I wondered when someone would go for this , its outrageous In tell ya , absolutely frothing at the mouth outrageous ...
However...

However, on reflection, and on reading Dr William's actual comments more thoroughly, it becomes apparent that he was advocating the option of having Shari'a available to Muslim citizens for activities such as divorce and inheritance - not for flogging or stoning.

So that would be like what the Cof E has , what the Catholics have ...so its OK really as long as its Christians .
Bugger , someone introduced Talmudic law in Britian without much outrage , so why can it not be the same for Sharia ?

[Fragony]

'why not' is the wrong question. If muslims want sharia laws there are perfectly fine deserts where they have it. Go there. If you stay shut up and respect english law just like everybody else. Law isn't a tailor.

[ICantSpellDawg]

I wondered when someone would go for this , its outrageous In tell ya , absolutely frothing at the mouth outrageous ...
However...


So that would be like what the Cof E has , what the Catholics have ...so its OK really as long as its Christians .
Bugger , someone introduced Talmudic law in Britian without much outrage , so why can it not be the same for Sharia ?

it is absurd - i agree wholeheartedly.

I never thought that politically correct people were "calling for the Caliphate", I am against them because eventually, when sensibility is weakened, the Caliphate calls for itself.

The UK did not allow the Catholic church to opt out of the Homosexual adoption issue. It seems as though the U.K. wants to rip itself apart - I say let them. The beauty of an international community is that other countries which I have no ties to are free to try thing out. The more quickly and harshly they fall or undergo terrible consequences, the more fortified public opinion in the U.S. will become against it.

Killing themselves so that others may live - how noble of the U.K.

[Tribesman]

If muslims want sharia laws there are perfectly fine deserts where they have it. Go there.

So shoud Britain also get all jews who have talmud law in Britain to move to Israel ?

But hey how about a question that you are still unable or unwilling to answer Frag .
What is Sharia law ?
Come on you go on about it often enough , what is it ?

The UK did not allow the Catholic church to opt out of the Homosexual adoption issue.

Yes it did .
What the UK government did was say to them that if they wanted to opt out of the legislation covering government supported adoption agencies then they couldn't have any of the government money or assistance that goes to government supported adoption agencies .