Capo de Tutti Capi - II [Concluded]

[TinCow]

Out of respect for a great player, I will respond:

As I showed in posts 3047 and 3048, this is false. I never claimed to be the doctor. I found it odd that TinCow would think I was, so I let him believe that while informing JimBob of the truth.

I actually believe you on this. I misjudged your statement because I am not familiar with the roles due to a lack of experience with mafia. It still does not change my opinion of you, however. You claim that being showing up for a protection group means you can't be a Don. The evidence you cite to back this up is... yourself. There has been no Don Role PM revealed, so we have no idea what the Dons can and cannot do beyond the few hints provided in Louis' exposure of Omanes. You personally used the many changes to the role as a major reason to lynch CR, but you expect me to believe that Don's can's show up in a protection group, just because you say so?

2) Accusation: Sasaki was protected by a luca night 7

Fair enough. Perhaps he was protecting you. That's no guarantee that you're innocent, though. He says he thinks you're a townie, but as far as I can tell that's just a gut reaction on his part. Plenty of people have had gut reactions on you. In fact the only person I can think of who didn't ever fully believe that you were pro-town was JimBob.

Sasaki reeks to high hell.

3) Accusation: Sasaki's red text is a lie

This is also false. See Myrdraal's post a few above mine. This alone should prove me innocent.

You claim to share similar red text to Myrddraal, yet when I used that exact same argument (two people with identical red text) to prove that the whole Ichigo special ability thing was true, you come up with this gem:

I find this doubtful. But apparently seamus is breaking the mold on role selection, I didn't expect crusaders either. It still sets off alarm bells of unlikely coincidence.

Sasaki

You love those double-standards, don't you Sasaki?

4) Accusation: Sasaki couldn't wait one day before lynching CR

This is also false. As you can see from the above pm, I was informed that Myrdraal was going to protect CR but protected me instead. I'm not stupid, I can put two and two together. If I was a don I could have had CR killed back then without bothering to try and get him lynched in the thread. CR was pretty clearly guilty but that's another story.

Pretty clearly guilty? Are you insane? The evidence against CR wasn't even as strong as the evidence against you, and you claim to be completely vindicated. Yet more double-standards. If you wonder why people don't trust you, Sasaki, it's because of stuff like this.

5) Accusation: Sasaki had the townie group killed off

Sarathos was mafia and was aware of as much of the list as I was. Several others were common knowledge, some I was not even aware of. Also note that the mafia try to target active townies, and most active townies were in protection groups. I was never aware that Lt. Pinard and LittleGrizzly were in townie groups. If you look at last game I tried to keep my townie group alive when I was mafia. And so on and so on. There isn't any meat to this accusation.

The point is that there is a leak somewhere. True, the rest of them do not point directly towards you. The direct finger came from Cowhead's death, which is discussed below.

6) Accusation: The banner during Ichigo's death points to Sasaki

If ichigo was in the italian mafia how come the killed last night and the rose mafia didn't? How come Ichigo claimed earlier to be in the rose mafia? What reason does TinCow have to claim I was ichigo's buddy and not one of the other attackers? None. I don't know what the banner meant.

Whatever Ichigo was, he wasn't pro-town. That makes him our enemy. Which makes any friend of Ichigo also our enemy. Someone on that hit was Ichigo's friend. You do the math.

[B]7)
All he had to do was give me the date and time. Instead he sent me a pm revealing the entire townie organization and left one of the instances of Cowheads name uncensored. In addition, he followed it up with a pm that explicitly said he'd messed up and included cowheads name and that he was the detective. And then cowhead get's killed and he blames me for it, making a big deal out of how the same night he told me cowhead was a detective cowhead died. Well guess what? I'd been told the name of another detective, and informed who the surgeon was, and who the surgeon was protecting, and none of them turned up dead on the night. TinCow even knew about the other detective not turning up dead. Now, when I saw cowhead killed I considered briefly that TinCow had sent his name to the mafia but quickly dismissed it. There's no reason why they couldn't have chosen Cowhead because he fit the profile they were after. But this really looks to me like TinCow purposely leaked the name to me and had Cowhead killed that night, planning to frame it on me.

Everything you say about the events is true and it is one of several times that I have completely bungled this game. CR, Andres, and GH can all verify at least 2 other bunglings as well. I have never claimed to be a veteran and I have openly admitted to making major errors. I have not attempted to become Director for that very reason: I shouldn't be. I don't even want to be in this townie leadership role, but someone had to do it and JimBob up and disappeared.

The point is that Cowhead's death was extremely coincidental. You don't even believe it can be a coincidence, because you think I was responsible for it. You think I'm mafia and therefore believe that I am Ichigo's "buddy" and sabotaged the first hit on him. That makes absolutely no sense. Ichigo has been a townie target since he appeared on the D8 list that JimBob posted. I wrote that list. I also personally selected Ichigo as the target on N9, when there were other options. If I'm the criminal mastermind who intentionally leaked Cowhead's identity, why was I personally responsible for getting the town after him in the first place?

-----------------

Despite all of this, I will respect the advice of a player I trust a great deal: Crazed Rabbit. I've worked with him for most of the game at this point and he has not been wrong yet. Not once. I believe that whatever you are doing, you are not working for the town. Even so, the top priority is, and always has been, to stop the nightly townie deaths by the mafia. If we can stop those, we can spend as much time as we want debating without any serious urgency. A Don cannot kill unless he is solo, and if you are a Don you are certainly not the only person left in your family. Therefore, I can't see the harm in giving you more time to prove yourself. It's a shame you couldn't do the same for CR.

At the same time, I will not agree to let you get right back to work feeding our activities to other people. I will, at least temporarily, cease my attacks on you and unvote you if you voluntarily withdraw from all townie activities until you are invited back in. There is no possible way for me to trust you, and I will not include someone I actively distrust in the night groups.

If you agree to this, I will make the following proposal:

We ask Joe Monks and scottishranger to prove that they aren't mafia. There are several Mades and Lucas left in this game. Joe Monks' criminal result and scottishranger's history are consistent with that. Unless they can provide some proof or townie verification that they aren't mafia, it would be best to lynch one or both of them right now. The only other person with a criminal/guilty result who doesn't have a known excuse for it is Twilightblade, and he can't kill solo, so he can be disposed of at night without risking another townie death.

This is my current list, I suggest we start working down it:

Twilightblade - Likely a remnant of a mostly deceased family, solo and cannot kill
gibsonsg91921 - Last survivor of the Stracchis, solo and cannot kill
scottishranger - From failed 6th Family attempt early in the game. Has been repeatedly invited to prove his 'rehabilitation' to the town and has always failed to do so.
Joe Monks - Criminal detective result, no known townie affiliations.
Craterus - Unexplained protection
CountArach - FoS from N9 Ichigo hit failure

[Andres]

TinCow, that is a scummy post you know.

If Sasaki is your prime suspect, then you have to stick to your vote.

Now you offer him to withdraw your vote in exchange for him to no longer work with the townie network

You should stick to your vote until his defense satisfied you or until serious evidence on another suspect gets posted in the thread.

And another thing: keeping Sasaki in the townie network, makes it easier for you guys to detect any treason from his side. Btw, any sane mafioso who is reading that Sasaki is no longer working with you, will not attack one of your guys the next night, just to frame Sasaki. Also, Sasaki probably knows plenty of your townie guys already now, so excluding him from participation to keep identities secret is a bit late now.

Heck, it's perfectly possible that you are the mole in the townie organisation. You claim to be a Wiseguy. This means you can kill with another townie Wiseguy. Can somebody confirm that he has performed a kill with you alone?

Or are you planning to join Sasaki's family (after all, you're a Wiseguy now) and is that the real motivation for you to withdraw your vote that easily?

[TinCow]

Andres, you've publicly proclaimed that you wanted to do everything you could to help the mafia win. You'll forgive me if I continue to ignore your posts, as I've been doing for several weeks now. Nothing good can come to the town by listening to you, even if you do insert small (and wonderfully precise) measures of truth into them at irregular points. I hope we can be on the same side in Capo III, because you're a fun person to play with.

[Drisos]

Oki... too much chaos. Let's lynch a known killer.

[Andres]

Andres, you've publicly proclaimed that you wanted to do everything you could to help the mafia win.

I also publicly proclaimed that Dutch and I were going to suicide after we got backstabbed by Louis

Nothing good can come to the town by listening to you,

If they had been listening to me, the FBI detective would still be alive.

even if you do insert small (and wonderfully precise) measures of truth into them at irregular points.

And I'll do it again now: the hitman is still alive.

I hope we can be on the same side in Capo III, because you're a fun person to play with.

You had the opportunity to be on my side in this game

OOC: The feelings are mutual

[Proletariat]

What's the current tally?

I'm leaning toward Sasaki being innocent, probably a townie. Can anyone say exactly what Brave Sir Robin has been up to? Was he a part of the townie vig kills? Because he comes up guiltyguiltyguilty

Vote: Abstain

[Sasaki Kojiro]

What's the current tally?

I'm leaning toward Sasaki being innocent, probably a townie. Can anyone say exactly what Brave Sir Robin has been up to? Was he a part of the townie vig kills? Because he comes up guiltyguiltyguilty

Vote: Abstain

Yes he's been part of the townie groups for a long time, and was involved in kills the last two nights.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

you expect me to believe that Don's can's show up in a protection group, just because you say so?

I'm not expecting you to believe that. I'm not sure I believe it myself. That's what I believed when I sent you the pm.

He says he thinks you're a townie, but as far as I can tell that's just a gut reaction on his part.

It's more than that.

You claim to share similar red text to Myrddraal, yet when I used that exact same argument (two people with identical red text) to prove that the whole Ichigo special ability thing was true, you come up with this gem:

That ability seemed out of the scope of the fatlington world to me. It's not a double standard unless the red text I'm claiming was of a similar mystical nature.

Pretty clearly guilty? Are you insane? The evidence against CR wasn't even as strong as the evidence against you, and you claim to be completely vindicated. Yet more double-standards. If you wonder why people don't trust you, Sasaki, it's because of stuff like this.

I guess we'll see about this tomorrow.

Whatever Ichigo was, he wasn't pro-town. That makes him our enemy. Which makes any friend of Ichigo also our enemy. Someone on that hit was Ichigo's friend. You do the math.

I'll do the math...1/6.

The point is that Cowhead's death was extremely coincidental. You don't even believe it can be a coincidence, because you think I was responsible for it.

I believed it to be a coincidence until today. Your timely accusation + the unlikely coincidence where you leaked cowheads name to me has changed my mind.

You think I'm mafia and therefore believe that I am Ichigo's "buddy" and sabotaged the first hit on him.

It's possible, but if CountA has an unexplained guilty result on him then he was probably responsible and should be a priority.

At the same time, I will not agree to let you get right back to work feeding our activities to other people. I will, at least temporarily, cease my attacks on you and unvote you if you voluntarily withdraw from all townie activities until you are invited back in. There is no possible way for me to trust you, and I will not include someone I actively distrust in the night groups.

I see no reason to do this unless the other members of the group trust you over me.

You said yesterday that all of my rebuttals were "very poor". Today you admit that some of them are entirely true. In the end your claimed suspicion is not based on much except a gut feeling that I'm untrustworthy. That makes certain coincidences seem unlikely to be just coincidence. But I believe that if you felt that way you wouldn't have followed up a pm of mine that didn't claim to be doctor with a pm that accepted that as fact and revealed the name of a detective. Considering you knew my reputation from previous games I find it unlikely that you trusted me that much.

This is the tally:

Tally:

Sasaki 3 (TinCow, gibson,xehh II)
Twilightblade 3 (Kagemusha,Joe Monks, Kukri)
TinCow 1 (Sasaki)

I'll hold off on switching my vote for now. I do think t'blade should die, along with gibson and scottish. I'm concerned they'll join a family or join their own group. CountA as well, assuming your guilty result comes from who I think it does.

[TinCow]

Sasaki is right about BSR, he has confirmed townie vig kills.

Alright, Sasaki, let's see if we can at least reach an agreement on the immediate lynching vote and the proper course of the next night's actions. Time is running out and we can deal with the rest of this later. I think Twilightblade is poor choice for a lynch for the reasons stated above: disposing of him now will not stop any townie deaths. Let's try to do a lynch that will actually keep someone alive. Twilightblade can be disposed of by vigilante groups without risking townie lives.

We have gibson, scottish, Joe Monks, and CountArach as possible options.

gibson was a wiseguy as of N7 with enough kills to become a Made. It is unclear whether he committed to the Stracchi or not, but very possible that he didn't. At the same time, he has been telling the truth that he has been AWOL due to RL time constraints for most of the game. I doubt he has had the time to negotiate his way into another family.

scottish is admitted wiseguy who by my reckoning has almost certainly joined one of the families by this point. I wouldn't be surprised if he is part of these regular nightly hits.

CountArach has a guilty detective result and has no way to explain it. I also wouldn't be surprised if he is part of the ongoing nightly hits. Keep in mind though, that he could not possibly have been responsible for the N10 Ichigo banner, because he wasn't in that hit group.

Joe Monks has a criminal result with no explanation, but also no other evidence that he has done wrong.

I would therefore prioritize scottish or CA as the lynch target, with the rest as vigilante targets unless they can explain themselves before the next night phase. Which would you prefer?

[Ferret]

I'm gonna vote:Sasaki 'cos TC did :P

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Let's go for CountA.

unvote:TinCow,vote:CountArach

I'm gonna vote:Sasaki 'cos TC did :P

really?


Tally:

Sasaki 4 (TinCow, gibson,xehh II,elite ferret)
Twilightblade 3 (Kagemusha,Joe Monks, Kukri)
CountArach 1 (Sasaki)

[TinCow]

Elite is another KOTR friend. Not worth FoSing him over that.

unvote: Sasaki
vote: CountArach

I encourage everyone else who voted for Sasaki to do the same. To be clear, I do not trust Sasaki and I am not 'letting him off the hook,' but this discussion has been good enough to convince me that at a bare minimum more time should be spent on the issue and there are higher priority target today.

[Ferret]

okay I have more against him than you

unvote vote:CountArach

Tally:

Sasaki 3 (TinCow, gibson,xehh II)
Twilightblade 3 (Kagemusha,Joe Monks, Kukri)
CountArach 2 (Sasaki, Elite Ferret)

[Ferret]

new tally (including TC's vote)

Sasaki 2 (gibson,xehh II)
Twilightblade 3 (Kagemusha,Joe Monks, Kukri)
CountArach 3 (Sasaki, Elite Ferret, TinCow)

[Andres]

gibson was a wiseguy as of N7 with enough kills to become a Made. It is unclear whether he committed to the Stracchi or not, but very possible that he didn't. At the same time, he has been telling the truth that he has been AWOL due to RL time constraints for most of the game. I doubt he has had the time to negotiate his way into another family.

scottish is admitted wiseguy who by my reckoning has almost certainly joined one of the families by this point. I wouldn't be surprised if he is part of these regular nightly hits.

And let's not forget that TinCow is a Wiseguy himself, who has been in close contact with at least one mafia family and who has already performed enough kills to become a Made...

gibson being very busy with RL apparently didn't prevent him from becoming a Made, eh? Why do you insist on not lynching gibson, Townie Wiseguy Made Gangster Don TinCow?

But hey, don't listen to me. I would never try to convince the town to lynch my own Don, would I? Nono, TinCow must be innocent, because I accuse him, just like the FBI detective was guilty because I said he was innocent.

there are higher priority target today

You waited awfully long to bring up these "higher priority targets"... Or are you quickly saving your own skin by letting the supposed "Don" Sasaki (hey, it was you who had a whole, elaborated case against him) live. Or are you an unaffiliated Made Gangster who decided to join said Don Sasaki's family?

[Sigurd]

Warluster killed Myrddraal last night, I believe.

***

Hiji was found guilty on n4. A townie working with the balloon mafia then? I can’t work it out.

Are you posting new information dead man?
Maybe as a punishment Seamus should reveal your source... ya know the last of the detectives.

[Ferret]

oh and I voted the same way as TC as I have grown to trust him since I joined the .org, he is a lawyer, I believe he is pro-town, and I don't have time to read all the discussion (mainly just AjaxFetish's posts) so I trust his judgement.

[TinCow]

he is a lawyer

For the record, that should probably be a reason not to trust me.

[Ferret]

For the record, that should probably be a reason not to trust me.

only in the courtroom, what I meant is lawyers are generally very clever people who can read situations such as this well, but yeah you could easily be manipulating me.

[Kagemusha]

Lol! This stinks to high heavens. Tincow, first you build a huge case against Sasaki and then you start another rolling bandwagon against CA, just like that. CA plays in my interactive history and i happen to know that he is Australian. Do you know what time is now in Australia and what time it will be when the deadline will be? Its night in there. So you are now ready to lynch a player that cant defend himself at all, just because a bandwagon showed up. This seems too scummy to me to bare. Vote: Tincow

[TinCow]

Sasaki chose CA, not me. I suggest him or scottish.

[Kagemusha]

Sasaki chose CA, not me. I suggest him or scottish.

Its not the first voter who starts a bandwagon.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Hi Kage, I don't trust TinCow but I do trust the detectives he is in contact with.


Sasaki 2 (gibson,xehh II)
Twilightblade 2 (Joe Monks, Kukri)
CountArach 3 (Sasaki, Elite Ferret, TinCow)
TinCow 1 (Kage)

[Andres]

Hi Kage, I don't trust TinCow but I do trust the detectives he is in contact with.

Are they of the same degree of trustworthiness as your Made or CR who you were so eager to lynch because you suspected him to be a mafioso?

Nice performance guys. First you dominate the whole round throwing accusations at each other and then you switch your votes to an Australian guy who can't defend himself.

When it smells like scum and when it looks scum, it probably is scum.

I think you are both scum. Good job fooling the town

[Myrddraal]

as far as I can tell that's just a gut reaction on his part.

Read again.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Are you posting new information dead man?
Maybe as a punishment Seamus should reveal your source... ya know the last of the detectives.

What new information? It's all speculation based on what's in the thread*. You just have to read carefully and fill in the gaps with educated guesses.

Looks like I am right about both Hiji and about Warluster killing Myrddraal I guess. Both you and your buddy Andres are jumping on it...
I can smell both of you sweating all the way down here. The net is closing in on what's left of the mafia.

*try, for example, combining CR's results with the write-ups and the Sasaki/TC vig group names.

[Craterus]

Gibson already told the town that he wasn't allowed into the Stracci family.

I think this is significant.

How sure are we that Gibson is not the final Stracchi member? Cos if he is, surely he has to be the Stracchi Don? And being our perennial 'low-priority' lynch target, there's a good chance he'll survive till the endgame. At which point, he can flex his Don muscles and win the game. I'm not sure how other people feel, but I would hate to lose to a lurker.

Also, Andres is protecting him even when he is under considerably little suspicion. We all know Andres is not to be trusted and I'll bet he's still doing everything he can to help his old family.

Also, if Gibson has been inactive, where's the WOG?

I'll vote: Gibson, until further notice.

Now, onto the other point, CR 'strongly suspects' me? Based on a protection? I don't think I'm the only player to have been protected in the game. Also, it wasn't an 'unexplained protection', I've made two posts about it now.

[scottishranger]

scottishranger - From failed 6th Family attempt early in the game. Has been repeatedly invited to prove his 'rehabilitation' to the town and has always failed to do so.

I dont really get how I have failed at this? I have been in all of the groups offered to me. I have not even been on for the past 5 days, because I have been playing sports and dont have time to get on both TWC and the .Org, so it is impossible that I have been part of these hits.

[TinCow]

I dont really get how I have failed at this? I have been in all of the groups offered to me. I have not even been on for the past 5 days, because I have been playing sports and dont have time to get on both TWC and the .Org, so it is impossible that I have been part of these hits.

Care to explain this, then scottishranger?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

To TinCow, Dutch, GH and Northnovas:

It seems like scottishranger is willing to cooperate. Apparantly, Sarathos is a townie who has killed once.

TinCow, do you have a wiseguy in your network who can team up with scottishranger?

I can ask Tran. If one of them proves to be untrustworthy, we lose nothing. If they are loyal, we win two wiseguys for our cause.

What say you?

Cheers,

Andres.

Hi,


I heard you have a 'neutral' role.

Interested in joining the Dark Side of the Force?

A.

Hi Andres. I have heard you have been recruiting for the various families, and now, well I am out of work. My mafia family in the making has been destroyed for the second time. We just lost our new leader in Xdeathfire, and now we only have two members left.

I think I have managed to throw the town of my scent, what with Xdeathfire now dead anyways. I participated in a few protections, because I had to stay alive
I am a wiseguy right now. I was promoted last night with a succesful kill. If any family wants me, Ill be at their service.

Gah, if only my family had worked out, you guys would have no idea. Anyways, whether you want to set me up or not, just putting myself out their.

Hi scottishranger.

You said you only have two members left. Is your friend also a Wiseguy?

If so, I can find a new employer for you guys. You'll probably have to kill the target they decide. There will be no reveal of names until you become a Made. You will only get to know other Mades. The Dons nor the Lucas will no longer reveal themselves to new recruits (reason: the treason of Louis VI the Fat).

In case you're alone, it gets more difficult. Most mafiosi are a bit paranoid at the moment and are very afraid for having a pro-town player infiltrating them. In that case, I'll have to find another lonely wiseguy like yourself.

If Dutch survives this day (now I know that it sounds very unlikely, but hey, we didn't expect him to survive until now, so who knows, maybe he manages to live yet another day), you can also work with him the next night or, in case I find a second Wiseguy, you can team up with said wiseguy and kill with the approval of the Stracci family.

So, can you tell me: is your remaining "family member" also a Wiseguy?

Cheers,

Andres.

My teammate, Sarathos, is a townie with only one kill.

That does put a damper on things, but regardless, Ill take part in anything you set up for me. If you could find someone willing to take on a townine for one night, perfect. If not, then I can be rid of him easily, or he can try to take get one more vig kill and he will talk to me again.

This took place in preparation for N7. This was after you refused my offer to join the townie groups on N5 and N6. On N5 you told me you were in a protection group with woad&fangs. On N6, you never even responded. Then the Stracchi approached you about joining them, and put you on the hit on Brave_Sir_Robin. At the time I thought you were just a mole trying to work your way into their group, because you were working with Sarathos and I thought he was a townie. However, since Sarathos has since turned out to be mafia, that makes this whole episode far more suspect in my mind.

Feel free to explain.

[scottishranger]

Care to explain this, then scottishranger?



This took place in preparation for N7. This was after you refused my offer to join the townie groups on N5 and N6. On N5 you told me you were in a protection group with woad&fangs. On N6, you never even responded. Then the Stracchi approached you about joining them, and put you on the hit on Brave_Sir_Robin. At the time I thought you were just a mole trying to work your way into their group, because you were working with Sarathos and I thought he was a townie. However, since Sarathos has since turned out to be mafia, that makes this whole episode far more suspect in my mind.

Feel free to explain.

Sarathos was mafia?

Thats news to me.