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Thread: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    "Waterboarding has been used on only three detainees," Hayden told the Senate Intelligence Committee. It was the first time a U.S. official publicly specified the number of people subjected to waterboarding and named them.

    Critics call waterboarding a form of illegal torture. Congress is considering banning the technique.

    Those subjected to waterboarding were suspected September 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and senior al Qaeda leaders Abu Zubaydah and Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, Hayden said at the hearing on threats to the United States.

    He said waterboarding has not been used in five years.

    "The circumstances are different than they were in late 2001, early 2002," Hayden said. "Very critical to those circumstances was the belief that additional catastrophic attacks against the homeland were imminent. In addition to that, my agency ... had limited knowledge about al Qaeda and its workings. Those two realities have changed."

    Hayden told reporters later that the interrogations of Mohammed and Zubaydah were particularly fruitful.
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    Backordered Member CrossLOPER's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Define "fruitful".
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    If this proves to be true, I'm going to be very relieved.
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    If this proves to be true, I'm going to be very relieved.
    Yeah, but it's going to be hard for them to prove to me that waterboarding has only been used three times.
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Define "fruitful".
    fruitful is when KSM admitted to planning or participating in every outrage that was committed over the past 20+ years .

    Yeah, but it's going to be hard for them to prove to me that waterboarding has only been used three times.
    Its gonna be harder for you to prove oherwise since the CIA have been destroying evidence .

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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    If this proves to be true, I'm going to be very relieved.
    Much ado about nothing comes to mind. We previously heard reports that coercive interrogations were used by the CIA on 14 suspects. Now, apparently, we learn that: actual waterboarding was used only on 3 of the worst; that it was in the aftermath of 9/11; and that it yielded useful intelligence. I think that very few Americans would have a problem with this.

    They should've just came out and said this earlier. Could they not do so due to intelligence reasons, due to incompetent leadership or what?
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Well, I would wait a while before breaking out the party favors. Some sort of independent confirmation of this would be really nice, especially given the CIA's recent track record.
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    The Black Senior Member Papewaio's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    That it was in the aftermath of 9/11; and that it yielded useful intelligence.
    If that intelligence is going on 7 years old surely and that Al Qaeda definitly know we are hunting them down, can't the intelligence gathered be revealed? Like the initial locations or list of connections that have been whacked? Since AQ would know which places have already been raided and which ones have died. Why not join the dots to this used intelligence?
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    They should've just came out and said this earlier. Could they not do so due to intelligence reasons, due to incompetent leadership or what?
    That it has taken so long to come out with this makes me extremely skeptical about the truth in this.

    EDIT: Also:

    Quote Originally Posted by article
    Those subjected to waterboarding were suspected September 11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed
    Quote Originally Posted by article
    He said waterboarding has not been used in five years.
    Quote Originally Posted by article
    Khalid Sheikh Mohammed following his March 2003 arrest.
    Is the poor CIA boss having trouble with his math again?
    Last edited by HoreTore; 02-06-2008 at 07:32.
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Ah well, since they are those really bad guys, it's okay I guess, they're less human than those with the belts strapped on. They just did it on the evil masterminds...
    If they didn't use it for five years I guess they switched to another technique five years ago.


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    Friend of Lady Luck Member Mooks's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Not that it matters, but I wouldnt consider the CIA a trustworthy group. Lying and deceiving is what they do.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    If it's good enough for the Navy, it's good enough for detainees.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    I don't trust the CIA to be truthful regarding an investigation of their own practices. Frankly, I think its a lie to cover up a larger number of waterboarding uses on captives, and that this just made a plausable, yet not all that outrageous, lie.

    HOWEVER, that being said, IF this is true, than I'd be willing to offer a pardon, as I could understand, in those times, why they would've been extra detirmined to get information. HOWEVER, I still think its torture and should not be practiced.
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Hmm. There's a bit of a trajectory here. From "We do not torture," to "Waterboarding isn't torture," to "Waterboarding might be torture," to "We only did it a little when we were flustered, and it worked great!"

    I definitely want more info, and from more sources.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by holybandit
    Not that it matters, but I wouldnt consider the CIA a trustworthy group. Lying and deceiving is what they do.
    Yeah, they probably made up the waterboarding altogether... just to keep our attention diverted from the "real" issue.
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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Xiahou
    Yeah, they probably made up the waterboarding altogether... just to keep our attention diverted from the "real" issue.
    Selling crack to inner-city African-Americans to fund their secret wars in South America thereby weakening the United States, paving the way for our domination by the UN? Damn trilatteralists!


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Why don't they just operate the old-fashioned way?

    "Don't lie, cheat, steal, assassinate, torture...

    But if you do, don't get caught, 'cause we'll have to nail you to the prison door (while making your stay as comfortable as possible, and taking good care of your family, for life)."


    What's with all the "sunshine" and transparency in an organization tasked to obtain reliable information for the executive, so the executive doesn't make ignorant mistakes?
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    This could very well be part of a larger maneuver:

    The United States may use waterboarding to question terrorism suspects in the future, the White House said Wednesday, rejecting the widely held belief that the practice amounts to torture.

    "It will depend upon circumstances," spokesman Tony Fratto said, adding "the belief that an attack might be imminent, that could be a circumstance that you would definitely want to consider."

    "The president will listen to the considered judgment of the professionals in the intelligence community and the judgment of the attorney general in terms of the legal consequences of employing a particular technique," he said. [...]

    The spokesman said that the program would continue to operate under US law and "within our legal obligations with respect to" the Geneva Conventions.

    Asked whether the White House's reasoning was that torture is illegal, the attorney general has certified that the interrogation practices are legal, therefore those practices are not torture, Fratto replied: "Sure."

    It doesn't take a tinfoil hat to look at this development and see something repetitive. Once again, it's not torture, and we only did it three time (honest!), and only against very bad people, and it worked great. So shut up and leave us alone, and please authorize us to do it again.

    It's another attempt to legalize their actions, plain and simple, by casting the best possible light on a technique favored by the Spanish Inquisition and the Khmer Rouge. I guess I should not have expected any better.
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    "It will depend upon circumstances,"
    Would those circumatances be along the lines of, when they do it it is neccesary and justifiable , but when others do it it is a war crime .

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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Speaking of shut up; you'd think these people would keep their traps shut about this kind of stuff. I can't see what possible benefit they can derive from it. In less, they hope the negative press will discourage or ban its practice.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
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    Poll Smoker Senior Member CountArach's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    If this proves to be true, I'm going to be very relieved.
    Come on Lemur, the CIA has never lied to people...
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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    It doesn't take a tinfoil hat to look at this development and see something repetitive. Once again, it's not torture, and we only did it three time (honest!), and only against very bad people, and it worked great. So shut up and leave us alone, and please authorize us to do it again.
    What happened to "presumed innocent until proved guilty"?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    What happened to "presumed innocent until proved guilty"?
    What happened to the boy who cried "Wolf!"?


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

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    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    What happened to the boy who cried "Wolf!"?
    He got a billion dollar record deal and married Angelina?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

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    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    He got a billion dollar record deal and married Angelina?
    Now that you say that, it's "presumed innocent until proven guilty".

    The point was that they lie, a lot. And this is politics, not a court(well, in court I'd agree with you) so everybody is allowed to have her/his own opinion on the matter and I think they're guilty.


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    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    What happened to "presumed innocent until proved guilty"?
    What about the BLACK HELICOPTERS!!!


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
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  27. #27
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    Now that you say that, it's "presumed innocent until proven guilty".
    I actually wrote it like that, but edited in the "d" afterwards since it sounded silly with an "n"

    Quote Originally Posted by Husar
    The point was that they lie, a lot. And this is politics, not a court(well, in court I'd agree with you) so everybody is allowed to have her/his own opinion on the matter and I think they're guilty.
    I was referring to CIA vs. tewwowists, not Lemur

    ie. shouldn't the CIA treat the suspects like innocent men until their found guilty in a court of law? Not like it's ever going to happen, but still...
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  28. #28
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    ie. shouldn't the CIA treat the suspects like innocent men until their found guilty in a court of law? Not like it's ever going to happen, but still...
    Yes, let's revisit the '90s where the major terrorist attacks happened overseas. 1993 being the exception of course.

    No, the answer is no for a host of reasons already belabored upon.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
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  29. #29
    has a Senior Member HoreTore's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Vladimir
    Yes, let's revisit the '90s where the major terrorist attacks happened overseas. 1993 being the exception of course.

    No, the answer is no for a host of reasons already belabored upon.
    So, you're OK with innocent people getting tortured along with the bad guys, if it keeps you safe?
    Still maintain that crying on the pitch should warrant a 3 match ban

  30. #30
    Enlightened Despot Member Vladimir's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by HoreTore
    So, you're OK with innocent people getting tortured along with the bad guys, if it keeps you safe?
    There you go again. You're ASSuming they're innocent and that they automatically get tortured. Think on it.


    Reinvent the British and you get a global finance center, edible food and better service. Reinvent the French and you may just get more Germans.
    Quote Originally Posted by Evil_Maniac From Mars
    How do you motivate your employees? Waterboarding, of course.
    Ik hou van ferme grieten en dikke pinten
    Down with dried flowers!
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