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  1. #1
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    i have no problem in principle with breaking terrorist fingers if it is necessary to save civilian lives.

    that said:
    it has to be effective in releasing the desired intelligence
    it has to be more effective than alternative techniques
    it should never be sanctioned by society, and thus only used by government illicitly under specific circumstances where it is deemed essential

    however:
    it does not appear to be particularly effective
    it does not appear to be more effective than alternative techniques
    it does not appear to have been possible to prevent institutionalisation of enhanced interrogation techniques, regardless of the lack of sanction

    therefore, i will not publicly condone the practice of torture... even if in private i'm fine with the idea of its use in a specific circumstance as the only method to reach a specific desired end.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 12-14-2014 at 00:02.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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  2. #2
    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    i have no problem in principle with breaking terrorist fingers if it is necessary to save civilian lives.

    that said:
    it has to be effective in releasing the desired intelligence
    it has to be more effective than alternative techniques
    it should never be sanctioned by society, and thus only used by government illicitly under specific circumstances where it is deemed essential

    however:
    it does not appear to be particularly effective
    it does not appear to be more effective than alternative techniques
    it does not appear to have been possible to prevent institutionalisation of enhanced interrogation techniques, regardless of the lack of sanction

    therefore, i will not publicly condone the practice of torture... even if in private i'm fine with the idea of its use in a specific circumstance as the only method to reach a specific desired end.
    You know you reached an argumental low when a socialist swede have to tell you that that, in no way, is a power the state should be trusted to handle.


    FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, how damn hard can it be to get?

    You can EITHER torture OR be seen as normal/nice.

    There is just no effin way in seven hells that a state can run torture programs, AND claim to be on the side of "good".

    I of course understand that it is a hard pill to swallow for USAnians, realizing their "home of the free", the democratic bulwark on earth... Is completely rotten from within.

    Shame on anyone trying to defend torture. It is by all definitions a human LOW when one cause another human being pain in order to force what one wants.

  3. #3
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    no, it is simple recognition that britain run's an activist foriegn policy heavily bent around global special forces operations.

    we are busting into huts in remote places on a daily basis, and i have no doubt a few fingers get broken here and there.

    i simply draw the line between this and a state sanctioned program of internment and interrogation that includes torture.

    but let me be clear; i do not want to live in a society that condones its government doing this.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 12-14-2014 at 00:00.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

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    Banned Kadagar_AV's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Furunculus View Post
    no, it is simple recognition that britain run's an activist foriegn policy heavily bent around global special forces operations.

    we are busting into huts in remote places on a daily basis, and i have no doubt a few fingers get broken here and there.

    i simply draw the line between this and a state sanctioned program of internment and interrogation that includes torture.

    but let me be clear; i do not want to live in a society that condones its government doing this.
    Uhhh... So if I read you right, you are OK as long as the population just recognize the torture their nation commit, as long as they don't condone it...

    I don't even know where to begin. C'mon, you yourself must see the glaring holes in this line of thought.

  5. #5
    Iron Fist Senior Member Husar's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    The government doesn't have to tell the people.
    The British can just trust their king/queen to do it only to filthy foreigners and everything will be fine.


    "Topic is tired and needs a nap." - Tosa Inu

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    Senior Member Senior Member Brenus's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    All right: My aunt, from my father’s side, was tortured by the Milice, the French Gestapo. No need for details. The fact is she was not, repeat not, involve in the Resistance. Never. She didn’t know my father was, or the neighbour’s family (my grand-father -mother’s side-) was.
    The Nazi had good reason to torture as some were blowing-up their trains, helped Allies pilots to escape and gave a lot of knowledge about their move, numbers and units, cutting their communication lines, and killing German Occupiers, time to time.
    But it was completely useless.
    The Gestapo did torture resistant with local success, but the greatest success against French Resistance was achieved by infiltration of the Abwehr (Admiral Canaris), not by Heinrich Gestapo, which was much more successful in deporting children.

    The only time torture worked was against political militants (i.e. students) to tell they were socialist/communists, or unionists, and done. Indonesia did it. What a great success, indeed, to torture teenagers/young adults to confess. Same can be said for Chile, Argentina and others democratic states under Pinochet, Videla, or Franco’s Spain.
    Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. Voltaire.

    "I've been in few famous last stands, lad, and they're butcher shops. That's what Blouse's leading you into, mark my words. What'll you lot do then? We've had a few scuffles, but that's not war. Think you'll be man enough to stand, when the metal meets the meat?"
    "You did, sarge", said Polly." You said you were in few last stands."
    "Yeah, lad. But I was holding the metal"
    Sergeant Major Jackrum 10th Light Foot Infantery Regiment "Inns-and-Out"

  7. #7
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    I don't believe torture actually works, but it's a moral dillema worthy of consideration. I am not convinced that it's always wrong. I can totally see how it can be the lesser of two evils sometimes.

  8. #8
    BrownWings: AirViceMarshall Senior Member Furunculus's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    Uhhh... So if I read you right, you are OK as long as the population just recognize the torture their nation commit, as long as they don't condone it...

    I don't even know where to begin. C'mon, you yourself must see the glaring holes in this line of thought.
    Too much knicker twistage, looking for black and white moral certainties in a muddy world.

    I do not want to reach this point:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...iers-told.html

    If it negatively affects our foreign policy.

    As noted previously; i do not believe it is generally effective, or more effective than alternative methods given time and space.

    It is healthy that society at large should reject torture, and be outraged if their government is caught doing it.
    I approve wholeheartedly of this attitude, and remain delighted that government fears being caught engaged in immoral acts... even if i am more tolerant of them myself.

    It's a muddy world, i don't expect cleanly polarised moral choices. That purity of soul is an option for nations that make the best of the world as they see it, and decidedly not for nations who seek to change the world around them.
    Last edited by Furunculus; 12-14-2014 at 11:18.
    Furunculus Maneuver: Adopt a highly logical position on a controversial subject where you cannot disagree with the merits of the proposal, only disagree with an opinion based on fundamental values. - Beskar

  9. #9
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    ^ what he says

  10. #10
    master of the pwniverse Member Fragony's Avatar
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    Default Re: CIA: Waterboarding used on 3 suspects

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadagar_AV View Post
    . It is by all definitions a human LOW when one cause another human being pain in order to force what one wants.
    Never beaten someone up? Never throwed a single punch?
    Last edited by Fragony; 12-14-2014 at 08:51.

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