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    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    The Clintons are playing nice? Do they ever play nice? Do I need to point out that they have not lost an election in twenty-eight years?

    Think what you want about Karl Rove, but please, don't put him on the same level as the Clintons, not in terms of political muscle. Karl was angling for a "permanent Republican majority," and he fell far, far short of the mark. If you think he's some magical wizard of election cycles who can make anything happen, you're way behind in your reading.

    Anybody who can beat the Clintons is a person to be reckoned with.
    Billary may be a two'fer but loving Bill and loving Hillary are two entirely different things. This is Hillary's game and that's what people are basing their votes on. If this were Bill magically going for the hat trick in an alternate universe the Democratic party and the media would be right at their side and Obama would have been knocked out of the race before or on Super Tuesday.

    It must be painfully obvious by now that I am not buying the 'Mr. Smith Goes to Washington' model everyone is trying to apply to Obama. Nice movie starring a nice guy movie star but come on now, it's a movie for chrissakes. Fat chance I'm giving a career politician the benefit of the doubt.
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    Spirit King Senior Member seireikhaan's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions

    Quote Originally Posted by Spino
    Fat chance I'm giving a career politician the benefit of the doubt.
    So who are you voting for, then? Last I checked, everyone else has been in politics waaaay longer than Obama. Crusty the Clown, perhaps?
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    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikhaan
    Am I the only one who's sensing the irony that you're practically begging for a moderate liberal to run?
    I'd need proof that one actually exists before answering the question.

    Quote Originally Posted by kamikhaan
    So who are you voting for, then? Last I checked, everyone else has been in politics waaaay longer than Obama. Crusty the Clown, perhaps?
    Nice. Crusty would certainly prove to be far more entertaining than the current lot and I really dig the hair.

    I'm voting for McCain, not that it will make a difference living in NY. I gave my vote to Badnarik in the previous election out of my disgust for the Neo-Con movement within the Republican party (and to find a satisfactory way of dealing with the futile gesture of voting anything but Democrat in NY). I like McCain on the economy and foreign policy and can deal with him despite his lackluster efforts in the Senate to effectively deal with illegal immigration.

    Yes, way longer than Obama but most of them (yes, even Hillary) were actually quite successful in either the private sector for a considerable amount of time prior to running for major political office. Those who didn't or had a mixed career in the private and public sector (Giuliani) actually had to perform given the demands of the job. And those who became Governors or mayors actually had to run a state/city.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    Well, the dude came from nowhere, built a political machine to rival the Clintons' in one year, has deadlocked the party favorite, is raising money faster than any other candidate without taking a dime from lobbyists or special interest groups ... I mean, these are all facts. They aren't glassy-eyed bits of wishful thinking. It's an extraordinary story well before any embellishing goes on.

    I'm curious -- what aspect of his campaign or support strikes you as fanciful or illusory? What's yanking your chain on this guy? You seem to be offended by the notion that he might be a contender.
    All true. I'm not judging his rise to fame and fortune. I'm questioning what the man might really be about. Is this a genuine 'campaign for change' or the ultimate ego bid? Given the nature of politics and the generation running the country I'm inclined to believe the latter. Maybe it was the carefully timed release of Obama's autobiographies just prior to running for two separate political offices. Maybe it's the questionable business ties with Tony Rezko who also, curiously enough, 'worked with' the Clintons. Maybe I don't equate impressive speechcraft with leadership. Maybe I don't equate political office with 'public service'. Maybe I equate crusading for 'real change' with culture instead of politics. Maybe it's the usual je ne sais quoi I get with politicians who seem too clean or too slick.

    I can accept all this if the man didn't seem to orchestrate his entire adult life towards the achievement of political office to sate a hidden ego that has been never satisfied. And if he is fine... but give me an impressive record as an attorney, give me a successful career as an entrepreneur or executive, give me a talent or skill set that doesn't necessarily translate directly into politics!

    Maybe I just want a genuine leader who already made a name for himself in the private sector or the military to come forward and cut the Gordian knot. Since we all know that ain't going to happen the best we can do is to stop believing 'pie in the sky' rhetoric, hedge our bets and hope for the best.
    "Why spoil the beauty of the thing with legality?" - Theodore Roosevelt

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    Though Adrian did a brilliant job of defending the great man that is Hugo Chavez, I decided to post this anyway.. - JAG (who else?)

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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions

    Quote Originally Posted by Spino
    It must be painfully obvious by now that I am not buying the 'Mr. Smith Goes to Washington' model everyone is trying to apply to Obama.
    Well, the dude came from nowhere, built a political machine to rival the Clintons' in one year, has deadlocked the party favorite, is raising money faster than any other candidate without taking a dime from lobbyists or special interest groups ... I mean, these are all facts. They aren't glassy-eyed bits of wishful thinking. It's an extraordinary story well before any embellishing goes on.

    I'm curious -- what aspect of his campaign or support strikes you as fanciful or illusory? What's yanking your chain on this guy? You seem to be offended by the notion that he might be a contender.

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    Master of Few Words Senior Member KukriKhan's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions

    Moderator's Note:
    Race may become an issue in this US election. Perhaps it already is. Therefore, it is important that the topic be discussed and dissected, in true backroom form, here.

    The phrase "Magical Negro" has academic, archetypal, and artistic referents and applicability, along with its cohorts: 'noble savage', 'the man who knows indians', 'wise man who educates Hero', and others. I refer those interested to Joseph Campbell's works on art, archetypes, and mythology. The stories are legion, from all cultures.

    That said, kindly note that any use of the phrase to hurl as an insult (toward any human, org member or not) will incur negative sanction here.

    Translation for my California friends: No n-bombs of any kind allowed here.
    Be well. Do good. Keep in touch.

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    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions

    Quote Originally Posted by KukriKhan
    Moderator's Note:
    Race may become an issue in this US election. Perhaps it already is. Therefore, it is important that the topic be discussed and dissected, in true backroom form, here.

    The phrase "Magical Negro" has academic, archetypal, and artistic referents and applicability, along with its cohorts: 'noble savage', 'the man who knows indians', 'wise man who educates Hero', and others. I refer those interested to Joseph Campbell's works on art, archetypes, and mythology. The stories are legion, from all cultures.

    That said, kindly note that any use of the phrase to hurl as an insult (toward any human, org member or not) will incur negative sanction here.

    Translation for my California friends: No n-bombs of any kind allowed here.
    It's a problem only if it benefits you to make it one this time around. You saw it from the Clintons already, but I don't think you'll see it from the Republican leadership.

    Is anyone who uses the back room black anyway? When we posted our pictures a while back i remember being blinded by the light.
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    Nobody expects the Senior Member Lemur's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions

    I'll be honest, if it's McCain v. Obama in the general election, I'll be a very happy lemur. Both men are pragmatic, neither is an ideologue. In a very real sense, I can't lose. Yes, they have some wildly different policy positions, but they're mostly sensible. Take Iraq as an example:

    We need to either commit to Iraq indefinitely, as with South Korea, or begin an orderly withdrawal immediately. Either way could work, either way could be a disaster; but nothing could be as bone-headed as the crony-based, corruption-friendly, ideology-driven, reality-ignoring mess we created previous to Petraeus. So even though McCain and Obama have what appear to be opposite intentions on Iraq, the two men outline the two viable courses. Stay forever or start getting out soon. I'll take either option over the Rumsfeld/Cheney hodge-podge.

    Going back to the assertions about how Obama will get chopped up like liver in the general election, I refer you to today's column by Peggy Noonan, a level-headed political mind if ever there was one:

    Mrs. Clinton is stoking the idea that Mr. Obama is too soft to withstand the dread Republican attack machine. (I nod in tribute to all Democrats who have succeeded in removing the phrase "Republican and Democratic attack machines" from the political lexicon. Both parties have them.) But Mr. Obama will not be easy for Republicans to attack. He will be hard to get at, hard to address. There are many reasons, but a primary one is that the fact of his race will freeze them. No one, no candidate, no party, no heavy-breathing consultant, will want to cross any line--lines that have never been drawn, that are sure to be shifting and not always visible--in approaching the first major-party African-American nominee for president of the United States.

    He is the brilliant young black man as American dream. No consultant, no matter how opportunistic and hungry, will think it easy--or professionally desirable--to take him down in a low manner. If anything, they've learned from the Clintons in South Carolina what that gets you. (I add that yes, there are always freelance mental cases, who exist on both sides and are empowered by modern technology. They'll make their YouTubes. But the mad are ever with us, and this year their work will likely stay subterranean.)

    With Mr. Obama the campaign will be about issues. "He'll raise your taxes." He will, and I suspect Americans may vote for him anyway. But the race won't go low.

    Mrs. Clinton would be easier for Republicans. With her cavalcade of scandals, they'd be delighted to go at her. They'd get medals for it. Consultants would get rich on it.

    The Democrats have it exactly wrong. Hillary is the easier candidate, Mr. Obama the tougher. Hillary brings negative; it's fair to hit her back with negative. Mr. Obama brings hope, and speaks of a better way. He's not Bambi, he's bulletproof.

    The biggest problem for the Republicans will be that no matter what they say that is not issue oriented--"He's too young, he's never run anything, he's not fully baked"--the mainstream media will tag them as dealing in racial overtones, or undertones. You can bet on this. Go to the bank on it.

    The Democrats continue not to recognize what they have in this guy. Believe me, Republican professionals know. They can tell.
    Last edited by Lemur; 02-08-2008 at 17:56.

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    Swarthylicious Member Spino's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions

    Quote Originally Posted by Lemur
    I'll be honest, if it's McCain v. Obama in the general election, I'll be a very happy lemur. Both men are pragmatic, neither is an ideologue. In a very real sense, I can't lose. Yes, they have some wildly different policy positions, but they're mostly sensible. Take Iraq as an example:

    We need to either commit to Iraq indefinitely, as with South Korea, or begin an orderly withdrawal immediately. Either way could work, either way could be a disaster; but nothing could be as bone-headed as the crony-based, corruption-friendly, ideology-driven, reality-ignoring mess we created previous to Petraeus. So even though McCain and Obama have what appear to be opposite intentions on Iraq, the two men outline the two viable courses. Stay forever or start getting out soon. I'll take either option over the Rumsfeld/Cheney hodge-podge.
    Pulling out soon without leaving a sizeable, permanent presence in the region will prove to be a disaster. Even if we assume that Iraq will not rip itself apart and function on its own it will still be extremely weak and prone to Persian, Turkish and radical Muslim intrigues. Mark my words, if we pull out cold turkey we will be back there within a decade or possibly less. We were there in 1990 because of a certain wildcard called Saddam and should another like him or Ahmadinejad threaten the stability of the region the world will be screaming at us to go back again. All industrial nations rely on the black gogo juice to function and there is too much of it in that region to allow that many wildcards to stack the deck. Besides, even if we assume the most aggressive and effective alternative fuel policies will be implemented by a bi-partisan Congress without a fight (lol, good luck with that one) keep in mind this isn't WW2 where everyone sacrificed the luxuries of life so we could slaughter Nazis and Imperial Jap fascists by the millions. Even the most optimistic outlook has us looking at a process that will take at least 10 years to implement. So people want change? So the kids want to make a difference? How much are they willing to sacrifice to get it? Markedly higher retail prices? Enormous utility bills? Will rural conservatives give up their SUVs? Will liberals pay through the nose for carbon credits so they can keep their own luxury items? Can liberals survive without their Macs? Can America afford to continue shopping at Whole Foods or pay $10 for a Grande Latte enema to fuel its addiction to overpriced, cleverly marketed 'organic' produce (taking into account markups due to bloated transportation costs)? Can a country whose citizens are already steeped in mountains of unnecessary personal debt afford radical change that involves more government 'pie in the sky' programs?

    Going back to the assertions about how Obama will get chopped up like liver in the general election, I refer you to today's column by Peggy Noonan, a level-headed political mind if ever there was one:

    Mrs. Clinton is stoking the idea that Mr. Obama is too soft to withstand the dread Republican attack machine. (I nod in tribute to all Democrats who have succeeded in removing the phrase "Republican and Democratic attack machines" from the political lexicon. Both parties have them.) But Mr. Obama will not be easy for Republicans to attack. He will be hard to get at, hard to address. There are many reasons, but a primary one is that the fact of his race will freeze them. No one, no candidate, no party, no heavy-breathing consultant, will want to cross any line--lines that have never been drawn, that are sure to be shifting and not always visible--in approaching the first major-party African-American nominee for president of the United States.

    He is the brilliant young black man as American dream. No consultant, no matter how opportunistic and hungry, will think it easy--or professionally desirable--to take him down in a low manner. If anything, they've learned from the Clintons in South Carolina what that gets you. (I add that yes, there are always freelance mental cases, who exist on both sides and are empowered by modern technology. They'll make their YouTubes. But the mad are ever with us, and this year their work will likely stay subterranean.)

    With Mr. Obama the campaign will be about issues. "He'll raise your taxes." He will, and I suspect Americans may vote for him anyway. But the race won't go low.

    Mrs. Clinton would be easier for Republicans. With her cavalcade of scandals, they'd be delighted to go at her. They'd get medals for it. Consultants would get rich on it.

    The Democrats have it exactly wrong. Hillary is the easier candidate, Mr. Obama the tougher. Hillary brings negative; it's fair to hit her back with negative. Mr. Obama brings hope, and speaks of a better way. He's not Bambi, he's bulletproof.

    The biggest problem for the Republicans will be that no matter what they say that is not issue oriented--"He's too young, he's never run anything, he's not fully baked"--the mainstream media will tag them as dealing in racial overtones, or undertones. You can bet on this. Go to the bank on it.

    The Democrats continue not to recognize what they have in this guy. Believe me, Republican professionals know. They can tell.
    Actually I agree in that I believe Billary would be a pushover in the general election but I have a hard time Obama is going to be teflon coated. Again, I hearken back to the previous presidential elections, especially the last one, where GW Bush was expected to get his clock cleaned. There is alot more for McCain to beat Obama with other than 'he'll raise your taxes'. Driver's licenses for illegals is an awfully hard issue to dodge. Universal healthcare went over like a lead balloon when Hillary tried her hand at it. All McCain needs to do is cut through the hype and expound on Obama 's inconsistencies and the hot potato issues which run contrary to his rhetoric. Obama can call McCain a conservative, sure. But everyone knows McCain didn't like GW bush and is not a Neo-Con and that will be a big boost. Obama will have a hard time calling out McCain on 'tax cuts for the rich' because, surprise, McCain did not support GW's tax cuts and is a notorious enemy of deficit spending. McCain, being a military man and far more experienced in foreign policy matters also has far more credibility in those areas. As to Iraq, I believe acknowledging defeat by pulling out and leaving the region to its own fate is still a hard sell for moderate America. Everyone acknowledges that GW Bush and Rumsfeld screwed up but I'm not convinced everyone is keen on chalking up another loss, especially since Iraq is not Vietnam where several years and ~60K dead soldiers accomplished absolutely nothing. The Surge actually seems to have worked, Iraq is much much quieter than it was a year or so ago. The terror issue is still an 800lbs gorilla sitting in the corner and like Kerry, Obama can offer nothing but the same empty 'i'll go after these guys' promises that no Democrat since Carter has been taken seriously on.

    Should Obama decide to run the risk of dirt flinging to weaken McCain's standing then it will be open season and undecided voters may react in favor of McCain if they feel the media is painting an unfair picture of him. Obama can invoke the Keating 5 (but may be considered ancient history in modern political terms) and McCain can invoke Tony Rezko and the Clinton connection.

    And don't get too sweet on Peggy Noonan, back in the day she was pretty happy about GW Bush and all his works. She quickly jumped on the bandwagon when it became fashionable for conservatives to decry him as the Neo-Con he really was.
    Last edited by Spino; 02-08-2008 at 19:18.
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  9. #9
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions

    Quote Originally Posted by Spino
    And don't get too sweet on Peggy Noonan, back in the day she was pretty happy about GW Bush and all his works. She quickly jumped on the bandwagon when it became fashionable for conservatives to decry him as the Neo-Con he really was.
    She claimed that Bush was a mistake. IN HINDSIGHT. What's wrong with that? If you look at his term in office, see how divisive he was, notice his inability to successfully defend legitimate policies, or see how much spending has increased NOT INCLUDING the Iraq war - I don't think that the statement "mistake" is unfair or only to be used by conservative wagon jumpers.

    Iraq would have been a major success if Saddam still had nuclear arms, which nearly everyone believed him to have. Unfortunately for the Bush administration and the G.O.P., he didn't. What is the problem with looking at past personal actions and deeming some things to be mistakes? Flip-Flopper! Burn her at the stake! How dare she learn things from hindsight?!!!

    BTW - I like the tax cuts that Bush pushed through in the face of understandable opposition. I have benefited from the cuts even though I only make $40k a year.

    here are a few reasons (not including the idea of minimal government intrusion into our lives).

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    The Tax Threat to Prosperity
    By ARTHUR B. LAFFER
    January 25, 2008; Page A15

    Over the past 30 years, the U.S. has seen large changes in income tax rates as well as other tax rates. And, as would be expected, the budgetary implications of these tax changes have once again become a hotly debated partisan issue.

    But missing from the discussion are the huge differences in how the top 1% of income earners respond to changes in tax rates versus, say, the bottom 75% or 80% of taxpayers -- the so-called middle class and lowest income groups. The "rich" quite simply are not like the rest of us.

    From the standpoint of logic, the supply of their taxable income should be far more sensitive to changes in tax rates than the supply of taxable income of the middle class and poor. In the highest tax bracket, 100% of all taxpayers have the highest tax rate as their marginal tax rate. And it's the marginal tax rate that elicits supply-side responses.

    Of course, if you look at a tax schedule, it's obvious that people with the highest taxable income also pay taxes in every other tax bracket. These lower tax rates are "inframarginal" and don't affect behavior. From the standpoint of the rich alone, a cut in these lower tax rates reduces tax revenues.

    Some 99% of all taxpayers paid taxes at the 10% rate in 2005, for example. Yet only 25% of all taxpayers had 10% as their marginal tax rate. Thus a cut in the 10% tax rate would have a supply-side impact on a relatively small portion of all those who pay the 10% rate -- while for the rest who pay the 10% rate, a tax cut would result in a deadweight revenue loss.

    On these grounds alone one should expect a greater supply-side response with a change in the highest tax rate than any other tax rate.

    In addition, low-income earners have a lot less flexibility to change the form, timing and location of their income -- and the avenues open to them to reduce their tax liabilities are far fewer. The avenues open to higher-income and highest-income earners include 401(k)s, IRAs, Keogh plans, itemized deductions, lifetime gifts, charitable gifts, all sorts of deferred income compensation plans, trusts, tax free bonds, etc.
    [Soaking the Rich]



    Moreover, the culture surrounding low income earners is not nearly as focused on tax avoidance as it is in higher income earners; fewer lower-income earners, therefore, even avail themselves of the limited programs, laws and other opportunities to reduce their tax liabilities. This means that the supply of taxable income in the highest tax bracket should be far more responsive to incentives than it is in the lower tax brackets, all other things being equal.

    Many tax-avoidance methods require expert advice and counsel from people such as tax accountants, lawyers, deferred compensation experts and, yes, even economists. Higher-income people find tax accountants and lawyers and other financial professionals far more cost-effective than do people with lower incomes, not only because the costs are spread over larger sums, but because the pursuit of tax avoidance is, dollar of income for dollar of income, more profitable at higher tax rates. This makes the taxable incomes of those who earn more, more variable, and the taxable incomes of those who earn less, less variable.

    Academicians and politicians have finally come to understand that it's the after-tax rate of return that determines people's behavior. Even though statutory tax rates are far lower today than they were when, say, Kennedy or Reagan took office, it is still very true that for every dollar of static revenue change there is a much larger incentive affect in the highest tax bracket than in the lowest tax bracket.

    But what actually happens to tax receipts by income tax bracket when tax rates change?

    Since 1980, statutory marginal tax rates have fallen dramatically. The highest marginal income tax rate in 1980 was 70%. Today it is 35%. In the year Ronald Reagan took office (1981) the top 1% of income earners paid 17.58% of all federal income taxes. Twenty-five years later, in 2005, the top 1% paid 39.38% of all income taxes.

    There are other ways of looking at tax receipts by income bracket. From 1981 to 2005, the income taxes paid by the top 1% rose to 2.96% of GDP, from 1.59% of GDP. There was also a huge absolute increase in real tax dollars paid by this group. In 1981, the total taxes paid in 2005 dollars by the top 1% of income earners was $94.84 billion. In 2005 it was $368.13 billion.

    In 2000 this teeny, tiny group -- 1% of all taxpayers -- actually paid income taxes equal to 3.75% of GDP, which is why President Clinton had a budget surplus. Much of this huge surge in tax payments by the top 1% of tax filers resulted from the huge increase in realized capital gains resulting from President Clinton's capital gains tax rate cut to 20% from 28% in 1997.

    Let's take a look at the bottom 75% of taxpayers over this same time period -- the group current Democrats refer to as middle- and lower-income earners. From 1981 through 2005, the share of all income taxes paid by the bottom 75% of all income earners (as reported on the individual income tax returns) declined to 14.01% from 27.71%. As a share of GDP, total taxes paid by the bottom 75% fell to 1.05% from 2.50%. The bottom 75% of all taxpayers today pay less than 35% of all the taxes paid by the top 1% of all income earners.

    Over the last 25 years, the bottom 75% of all taxpayers' tax payments fell and their tax rates fell. This is the group the Democrats are targeting for tax cuts.

    The important point here is that, over the last 25-plus years, the only group that experienced an increase in income taxes paid as a share of GDP was the top 1% of income earners. Even the top 2%-5% of income earners saw a decline in the GDP share of their income taxes paid.

    But now we get to the secret sauce, and the essence of what really happens in the realm of tax rates, incomes and tax payments by the rich.

    We have accurate data on both the total taxes paid by the top 1% of income earners, and on their comprehensive household income as measured by the Congressional Budget Office. From these two data series we can calculate the effective average tax rate for the top 1% of all income earners.

    Surprise, surprise: The effective average tax rate for the top 1% of income earners barely wiggles as Congress changes tax codes after tax codes, and as the economy goes from boom to bust and back again (see chart).

    The question is, how can that effective average tax rate be so stable? The answer is simply that the very highest income earners are and have always been able to vary their reported income and thus control the amount of taxes they pay. Whether through tax shelters, deferrals, gifts, write-offs, cross income mobility or any of a number of other measures, the effective average tax rate barely budges. But this group's total tax payments are incredibly volatile.

    For the low- and middle-income earners, the effective average tax rate has tumbled over the past 25 years, and so have tax revenues no matter how they're measured.

    Using recent data, in other words, it would appear on its face that the Democratic proposal to raise taxes on the upper-income earners, and lower taxes on the middle- and lower- income earners, will result in huge revenue losses on both accounts. But some academic advisers to Democratic candidates have a hard time understanding the obvious, devising outlandish theories as to why things are different now. Well they aren't!

    In the 1920s, the highest federal marginal income tax rate fell to 24% from 78%. Those people who earned over $100,000 had their share of total taxes paid rise -- from 29.9% in 1920 to 48.8% in 1925, and then to 62.2% in 1929. There was no inflation over this period.

    With the Kennedy tax cuts of the 1960s, when the highest tax rate fell from to 70% from 91%, the story was the same. When you cut the highest tax rates on the highest-income earners, government gets more money from them, and when you cut tax rates on the middle and lower income earners, the government gets less money from them.

    Even these data grossly understate the total supply-side response. A cut in the highest tax rates will increase lots of other tax receipts. It will lower government spending as a consequence of a stronger economy with less unemployment and less welfare. It will have a material, positive impact on state and local governments. And these effects will only grow with time.

    Mark my words: If the Democrats succeed in implementing their plan to tax the rich and cut taxes on the middle and lower income earners, this country will experience a fiscal crisis of serious proportions that will last for years and years until a new Harding, Kennedy or Reagan comes along.

    Trained economists know all of this is true, but they try to rebut the facts nonetheless because they believe it will curry favor with their political benefactors.

    Mr. Laffer is president of Laffer Associates.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 02-08-2008 at 19:33.
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    The very model of a modern Moderator Xiahou's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions

    With Mr. Obama the campaign will be about issues.
    Well, that would certainly be a refreshing change.
    More seriously, I think exposing his record would actually meet with some success in driving "moderate" voters to McCain. His campaign thus far has been about a cult of personality- drawing him out on his actual positions would likely hurt him. Will it be enough for him to lose? Meh- we'll see.

    No one, no candidate, no party, no heavy-breathing consultant, will want to cross any line--lines that have never been drawn, that are sure to be shifting and not always visible--in approaching the first major-party African-American nominee for president of the United States.
    She's apparently forgotten about 527s, push polls, robo calls and other groups that aren't directly associated with a campaign. They get to do the dirty work while the candidates officially condemn such attacks.
    "Don't believe everything you read online."
    -Abraham Lincoln

  11. #11
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    Is anyone who uses the back room black anyway? When we posted our pictures a while back i remember being blinded by the light.
    a) not everybody posted his/her pic
    b) it is not really relevant if any of the Backroom regulars are black or not

  12. #12

    Default Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions

    I remember at least one anyway. A-something.

  13. #13
    Medical Welshman in London. Senior Member Big King Sanctaphrax's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions

    Wasn't Big_John black?
    Co-Lord of BKS and Beirut's Kingdom of Peace and Love.

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  14. #14
    Part-Time Polemic Senior Member ICantSpellDawg's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions

    Quote Originally Posted by Ser Clegane
    a) not everybody posted his/her pic
    b) it is not really relevant if any of the Backroom regulars are black or not
    Well, technically it is relevant. Why would we avoid hurting the feelings of those who might not even exist when speaking about a topic from which the N word is inexorable?

    I'll go ahead and not use it, but I don't understand why simple words would offend anyone, particularly those who don't exist. I doubt if anyone here would go on a race-baiting extravaganza anyway, so why the censure? If the word applies to a discussion, leave it alone.
    Last edited by ICantSpellDawg; 02-08-2008 at 18:27.
    "That rifle hanging on the wall of the working-class flat or labourer's cottage is the symbol of democracy. It is our job to see that it stays there."
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    (Lincoln's First Inaugural Address, 1861).
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  15. #15
    Senior Member Senior Member Ser Clegane's Avatar
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    Default Re: U.S. Election '08: Race to the Conventions

    Quote Originally Posted by TuffStuffMcGruff
    Well, technically it is relevant. Why would we avoid hurting the feelings of those who might not even exist when speaking about a topic from which the N word is inexorable?
    Very interesting that you believe the "N word" is "inexorable" in this topic.
    Our forum rules do not link the acceptability of terms with negative racial connotations to the likelihood of someone of the group the term is directed at being able to read it.

    Any further discussion about what words are acceptable under which circumstances should be continued in the Backroom Watchtower

    Thanks


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