Where's my civil war?

[DerekBaker]

In my previous game I was surprised by the civil war, contributed to my defeat.

So this time (also Julii, Hard/Hard difficulty) I made sure I was prepared: have armies and fleets in position. Unfortunately there's no war.

It's 76BC, I've got 30 provinces and I'm at 5 with the senate and 7 with the people.

I've tried to assassinate both Brutii and SPQR members to no result. When I send a diplomat to Rome, I don't see an option to cancel my treaties with the SPQR.

Any suggestions?

Thanks.

[DerekBaker]

v1.5 - no mods or expansions.

[Vitellus]

If you get bored waiting too long, you can just start it yourself. Assuming the "A Chance for Power" message has appeared, it's a simple matter to stage simultaneous sieges up and down the Italian peninsula, starting the war and also dealing your rivals a crippling blow from the start. My very first RTW campaign ended in this way, with Brutii armies swiftly overrunning my puny rivals in Italy, and then command of the seas made it a simple matter to mop up.

Alternatively, you could wait and make no aggressive moves. If you manage things right, another faction might start the war for you! I believe this happened in my Scipii campaign - abruptly, the Senate was ordering me to attack other Roman factions, ordering them to attack me, and then just declaring all of us outlawed in frustration in the course of two turns or so. That way leads to a tougher war, but a more fun one.

[DerekBaker]

No "A Chance for Power" message.

My worry about waiting is running out of time to get the 50 provinces.

[Vitellus]

In that case, you likely need to appease the mob a wee bit more. Just go out and capture more provinces - it's doubtful that you'll get 20 provinces from your rivals alone, anyways. At least, I never did. The people like conquerors, so just overrun all of the barbarian lands to the north and you should be fine.

[DerekBaker]

North? They're long gone.

I'm in Spain at the moment.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

As Vitellus has said, the best method to initiate the civil war is conquest, conquest and more conquest.

As a general rule, the civil war can be triggered in two ways - getting outlawed by the senate, and earning enough popular support to march on the other Romans yourself. Assassinations don't work in v1.5 until you have had the "Chance for Power" message.

Getting outlawed by the senate obviously involves invoking their displeasure at your status and actions. Ignoring senatorial missions is one way of doing this, but what really enrages the senate is over extending your borders and increasing your power to a level that rivals them.

As a general rule, senate popularity will begin to gradually drop once about thirty-five provinces have been captured. When it reaches two shields on the senatorial scroll, the senate will begin threatening you with a variety of punishments for ignoring their missions. This will eventually deteriorate into a demand for the suicide of your faction leader.

If you refuse this demand, the senate declares war on you in their fury and all the other Roman factions usually turn on you as well. This isn't a rule however, and on an odd occasion a Roman faction may choose to support you in the fight ahead.

Bear in mind that all other Romans can also be outlawed in the same way. In this case you will be asked who you wish to support - senate or the outlawed faction.

The second method involves earning about eight shields of senate popularity. You're very close to this at the moment, so it shouldn't be too difficult to reach.

In this case, you gain a message telling you have "A Chance for Power". This allows you to cancel treaties with the other Romans and declare war on them as you could any other faction. Assassinations can also trigger the civil war once this event has been enabled.

As before, bear in mind that the other Roman factions can attack you in the same way using the same method.

I don't know the full mechanics of it, but I believe there is a bug associated with the other Roman factions during the civil war in v1.5. This allows them to attack you, but you cannot attack them back. I believe it's triggered when the other Romans declare war on you before you have the sufficient senatorial popularity to fight back. I'm not too sure though, so you may wish to wait for a more experienced player for full details.

[DerekBaker]

'As DerekBaker has said'. Did you mean Vitellus?

What sort of time is needed for the Civil War, assuming proper preparation - I've got 4 armies in Eastern Europe, with another forming, and two in Italy?

Thanks.

[DerekBaker]

Thanks for the replies.

Got the "A Chance for Power" message after taking my 33rd province.

[The Wandering Scholar]

Should be all over by now then

[Quirinus]

Ooh.... more new info from Omanes.

Assassinations don't work in v1.5 until you have had the "Chance for Power" message.

Does that mean that the assassinations simply fail every time, or are you not given the option at all?

This isn't a rule however, and on an odd occasion a Roman faction may choose to support you in the fight ahead.

I've never seen that happen before. What can you do to cajole the other factions into joining you?

The second method involves earning about eight shields of senate popularity. You're very close to this at the moment, so it shouldn't be too difficult to reach.

In this case, you gain a message telling you have "A Chance for Power". This allows you to cancel treaties with the other Romans and declare war on them as you could any other faction. Assassinations can also trigger the civil war once this event has been enabled.

How do you get the Senate to like you so much, other than family members' traits? The highest I ever got was six or seven, I think. Also, if you initiate the civil war due to Senate popularity (say, if you attack the Brutii as the Julii), does the SPQR take your side, or are you outlawed anyway?

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Does that mean that the assassinations simply fail every time, or are you not given the option at all?

Sorry, I meant that an assasination attempt (by you) on another Roman won't cause declaration of the civil war until you have had the chance for power. Before then assasinations still work - the Romans just won't act on them through declarations of war.

I've never seen that happen before. What can you do to cajole the other factions into joining you?

It seems fairly random. Once the Scipii chose my side in the war (as the Julii), but I wasn't really doing anything special or significant in their favour.

How do you get the Senate to like you so much, other than family members' traits? The highest I ever got was six or seven, I think. Also, if you initiate the civil war due to Senate popularity (say, if you attack the Brutii as the Julii), does the SPQR take your side, or are you outlawed anyway?

Gah! I meant about eight sheilds of popular support - high senatorial popularity cannot allow you to start the war, although high levels of support from the people can. I'm going senile - sorry

If you do attack another Roman faction, whether the senate likes or hates it, or likes or hates you for that matter, you are automatically outlawed. You can only attack another Roman faction and get away with it should the senate have already outlawed them.

Making the senate like you is a difficult task, although gaining high levels admiration from the senate isn't really essential. You simply need to keep the senate satisfied enough to prevent them from demanding faction leader suicide and/or implementing penalties for failure to complete senate missions. You don't even need to do that if you plan on using them as a tool to initiate the civil war.

If you do want to make the senate exceedingly happy however, the only way is following senate missions and performing early conquests.

The senate is impressed by all land gained by you until you have about thirty-five provinces under your wing. When you get to that stage they begin to treat you as a threat, and henceforth lose favour towards you. Further conquest, even if following senatorial missions, will lower your popularity even further, so, if you do wish to ensure senate happiness, should be avoided.

[The Wandering Scholar]

I'm going senile - sorry

Happens to everyone Omanes

anyway, nice tips

[DerekBaker]

Should be all over by now then

It's all over now.

[Quirinus]

It seems fairly random. Once the Scipii chose my side in the war (as the Julii), but I wasn't really doing anything special or significant in their favour.

Is it possible, once the civil war starts, to make a ceasefire with one of the other Roman factions? I've played (I think) about six or seven Roman games to the civil war, but I've never been able to make peace with my ertzwhile allies. For example, if I'm playing as the Julii, and the Scipii are confined to Sicily, I really don't have any quarrel with them. I'd rather preserve them as trade partners.

EDIT: By the way, just read my post again, and I have an unrelated question: is income from trade with other factions more than if it had just been between two cities in the same faction, considering that all other variables are constant? As a longtime player of GalCiv, the concept of preserving a second-rate power as a trade partner is deeply ingrained in me.

[The Wandering Scholar]

I suppose the more trading rights you have then the more money you will earn. So, trade with other factions (especially Romans with their infastructure) will be profitable. There is research in the lugdus magna about trade.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Is it possible, once the civil war starts, to make a ceasefire with one of the other Roman factions? I've played (I think) about six or seven Roman games to the civil war, but I've never been able to make peace with my ertzwhile allies. For example, if I'm playing as the Julii, and the Scipii are confined to Sicily, I really don't have any quarrel with them. I'd rather preserve them as trade partners.

From my experiences, in v1.5, you are able to do this. I've only ever managed to do it once as the Scipii with the Brutii.

I think the only reason for this was the fact that the Brutii were miles away from me, we shared no common borders and due to this we had never actually fought a battle against each other in the civil war (which had been going on for about seventy-five turns at the time). They did blockade my ports, however, but on the land side of things we were in effect at peace already.

The Julii, on the other hand, who I did share borders with, were a little less willing to have a ceasefire flung at them. We were at war constantly, besieging each other's cities, bribing each other's forces e.c.t.

Later on I actually managed to get an alliance with the Brutii which automatically resulted in a ceasefire between me and the Julii. A very unexpected one I must admit - I was expecting the Julii to ditch the Brutii and continue fighting me.

In v1.5 there is bug surrounding this. I'm not sure of the full details, but, if the civil war was declared through being outlawed by the senate due to low senatorial support, and then you gain a ceasefire from any of the Roman factions, you cannot attack any of their armies or cities - even if they attack you.

EDIT: By the way, just read my post again, and I have an unrelated question: is income from trade with other factions more than if it had just been between two cities in the same faction, considering that all other variables are constant?

No, I don't think it is. It's a matter of how much capacity two trading cities have rather than that of ownership.

[DerekBaker]

In my new game (Julii, Very Hard/Very Hard) Brutii has been at a popularity of 1 with the Senate for some time, but has not been outlawed.

Is this because there are still territories not controlled by any Roman faction? Egypt still hold 5.

Thanks.

[Quirinus]

No, the Senate can outlaw a Roman faction anytime, AFAIK, and though I've never seen another Roman faction get outlawed, I've read accounts of players who have.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

There are two methods the senate can outlaw a faction. Either by demanding the faction leader commits suicide and then having their demand refused, or through failure to complete a senate mission if that is set as the penalty. The latter case is very, very rare.

The problem with this is that the faction can easily get around this by either accepting the suicide demand, or, in the rare case they do get told they will be outlawed if they fail to complete their senate mission, competing their assigned mission. The AI rarely lets itself end up outlawed, so usually tries to avoid it to the best of its ability.

[Quirinus]

Still, doesn't accepting the suicide demand buy only a few more years before the demand is repeated?

[Paradox]

What happens when you keep accepting? Do your faction leaders keep dying until there aren't anymore people to crown? If not, than I believe you would be free to expand a little bit longer.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Still, doesn't accepting the suicide demand buy only a few more years before the demand is repeated?

Yes, but only if your senatorial popularity remains low. If it increases enough demands will cease.

What happens when you keep accepting? Do your faction leaders keep dying until there aren't anymore people to crown? If not, than I believe you would be free to expand a little bit longer.

Yep, it carries on until the family is as dead as a dodo or until the senate stop asking.

[DerekBaker]

The AI rarely lets itself end up outlawed, so usually tries to avoid it to the best of its ability.

If this is so, from where will my Civil War come? As there will soon be no non-Roman territory I can not increase my popular standing nor reduced my Senate standing.

[DerekBaker]

The War started when the last non-Roman territory was taken (by the Scpii).

By no efforts of my own, I find myself against the Brutii and SPQR, but allied with Scpii.

[Quirinus]

Oh..... were you outlawed, or the Scipii? It's curious that the Brutii should choose to side with the SPQR, seeing as how they were so near to being outlawed.

BTW, post a map. It's sounding pretty cool.

[DerekBaker]

[DerekBaker]

Just recreated the start.

Messages that turn were:

Betrayed: Brutii
Outlawed: Brutii
Betrayed: SPQR
Outlawed: Julii
Outlawed: Scpii
Outlawed: Brutii
Outlawed: Scpii

[Quirinus]

Whoa. All Roman....... and I've never seen anyone get so far into the game before.... 48 B.C.! That's almost 250 turns.

[Omanes Alexandrapolites]

Very interesting Derek - it makes me wonder if there is some hidden hardcode which automatically begins the civil war when the world is Roman.