Strategic Help

[worlddomination88]

Ok. Im in the polibian reforms Got the typical 4 hastati 3 pricaples 3 triarai. Does your hastati hold out any good against the against the barbarians. Particularly Averi or Audui im in the typical cheacker board formation with the hastati in the front and it seams they just get creamed peaty fast against any heavy infantry unit. And I have to quickly engage my pricaples before I want to.

So any body got any good advise in receiving an attack or engaging in an attack against the enemy as the Romans?? I seamed to always get pounded pretty good when the other army is full strength weather I win or not.

Sorry for the bad spelling

[PershsNhpios]

Ha ha ha, I think you should resort to your principles more often.

When I play Rome, I rarely even use the manipular formation.
In fact, in all games I try and fight with a different style, as though that faction had suddenly undergone a military reform.

But to advise you, you aren't meant to wait until the Hastati rout before engaging the enemy.
They are meant to slowly give way by degrees, and then retreat behind the formation.
Same with the Principes.

Knowing Roman units in EB, it is doubtful a single celt will engage with a Triarius.

Oh, and it's ok to have 3-4 units of Auxiliaries - these will be your best, and more historical flankers.

[konny]

Ok. Im in the polibian reforms Got the typical 4 hastati 3 pricaples 3 triarai. Does your hastati hold out any good against the against the barbarians. Particularly Averi or Audui im in the typical cheacker board formation with the hastati in the front and it seams they just get creamed peaty fast against any heavy infantry unit. And I have to quickly engage my pricaples before I want to.

Hastati should be of the same number as Principes and Triarii 1/2 of that. Example: 4-4-2

The idea behind the Roman tactics is to have the Hastati fight in the first place and keep the Principes in reserve. At any point where the Hastati cannot succeed they are retreated and the Principes from the second line take over. That is, your best fighters are kept in reserve until you see where the fighting is the heaviest and your line runs into trouble. That's where the Principes will engage and not to be wasted against any militias that the Hastati can rout on their own.

You should withdraw the Hastati, may be, when they down to under 100 men or show serious signs of beeing close to routing.

And what was your startegical question? ;-)

[Dubius Cato]

The checkerboard means that enemy units get in between and flank the Hastati. Is this flanking a problem? Of course you could rush in the Principes, flanking them in turn, but that would defeat the withdraw-Hastati-bring-in-reserves purpose, right?

[worlddomination88]

HAHA ya I guess that would be my "Strategic" problem wrong choice of words. Thanks for the help konny.
One other question konny, you said that when the hastati cant hold there own the pricipes take over. Should I withdrawal the hastati then have the pricipes hit the barbarian unit left there?
Or should I engage the pricipes first? Then withdrawal the histati.

No not a flanking problem I don't think, they just get slaughtered quickly.
And ya believe it would defeat the purpose. I think im gonna experiment
with what konny was saying thowe. So ya im not real sure with answering
im stumped myself right now. Thanks for responding Dubius

[The Wandering Scholar]

I usually do this:

PPHHHHPP
T M G M T

H engage P flank, T stop cav from flanking you, G gives front line morale, M pepper them. Auxilla are a bonus for extra flanking.

[PershsNhpios]

I usually do this:

ABCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWXYZ

I think it's pretty self-explanatory.

[konny]

HAHA ya I guess that would be my "Strategic" problem wrong choice of words. Thanks for the help konny.
One other question konny, you said that when the hastati cant hold there own the pricipes take over. Should I withdrawal the hastati then have the pricipes hit the barbarian unit left there?
Or should I engage the pricipes first? Then withdrawal the histati.

I order the Principes to attack the unit the Hastati run in trouble with. Once the Principes make ready to throw Pila, I order that particular unit of Hastati to retreat behind the Triarii duoblequick. They can recover there and, beeing still some 90 men strong, can engage elsewhere later.

[CaesarAugustus]

Generally I find that the checkerboard formation is wasteful and will quickly decimate your Hastati, when fighting an army of equal or greater size. For this reason, I will usually send in the Hastati and Principes at the same time, sometimes withdrawing particular units so the enemy will pursue them through the gaps in the line and be easily flanked. This is especially uselful when fighting the phalanx, but also works with barbarians. Meanwhile, I will have my Triarii (lately I have bben foregoing historical accuracy and making legions with six of each Hastati, Principes and Triarii) engaging cavalry, providing support where my units are weakening, or generally causing havoc and flanking units.

[KhaziOfKalabara]

The idea behind the Roman tactics is to have the Hastati fight in the first place and keep the Principes in reserve. At any point where the Hastati cannot succeed they are retreated and the Principes from the second line take over. That is, your best fighters are kept in reserve until you see where the fighting is the heaviest and your line runs into trouble. That's where the Principes will engage and not to be wasted against any militias that the Hastati can rout on their own.

Now, I'm a bit of a stickler for trying to do these things with a dash of historical accuracy (which I suppose is why I play EB rather than, say, RS); so does this mean that the checkerboard would have been maintained right up to the point of impact?

[konny]

so does this mean that the checkerboard would have been maintained right up to the point of impact?

We had this discussion some month ago. I say "no", others say "yes". For gameplay reasons I always use three lines, because there is no way to have your Velites run through the gaps of the Hastati, but most certainly they will run through the units themselves.

[Centurion Crastinus]

I always use the manipular formation. The exact ratio of units that I use are not completely accurate. I use 5 hastati, 5 principes, 3 Trarii, 2 velites, 1 general, one equites, one italic cavalry, and 2 itallic infantry. The Hastati, Principes, and Triarii are in three lines, and I place the Itallic infantry and the flanks behind the Principes. The Cavalry remains in the rear or out on the flanks.

[Sarkiss]

Hastati should be of the same number as Principes and Triarii 1/2 of that. Example: 4-4-2

it is possible to decrease a triarii unit size by half from 160 to 80 men (cost, attack/defence could be tweaked a little for balancing out) thus making it historically accurate... just wander what prevents EB team from making such an essential imo change....

[Watchman]

Most likely the fact they'd end up uselessly weak that way.

[Sarkiss]

Most likely the fact they'd end up uselessly weak that way.

i played that way in RTR, worked just fine even though iirc only cost and no other status were adjusted. you can adjust a bit other things too if needed. at the end of the day you really only need them in case of an extrodinary stubborn resistance, very difficult, prolonged battles. they are originally more of a reserve than an assault line.

[Parallel Pain]

Since it's tactics

Some balanced-army tactics.

I haven't really used them in EB, except the double envelopment (which I use line usually, but V's luring is effective when I used it). But I don't see why they can't work. They worked in Vanilla, and if use to the proper enemy formation they should work in EB too.

[konny]

it is possible to decrease a triarii unit size by half from 160 to 80 men (cost, attack/defence could be tweaked a little for balancing out) thus making it historically accurate... just wander what prevents EB team from making such an essential imo change....

Why should they? You certainly wouldn't field an army of 1x Hastati 1x Principes 1x Triarii. So, when you have more units in your army you can recreate the correct line up by having 1/2 fewer units of Triarii, assuming that each unit of Triarii represents the Triarii of two Legions standing in one line. Don't forget, you still have to deal with the 20-units limit to recreate a Consular army of 4 Legions, plus all the Extraordinarii, Auxilia, allies and the like.

[Sarkiss]

Why should they? You certainly wouldn't field an army of 1x Hastati 1x Principes 1x Triarii. So, when you have more units in your army you can recreate the correct line up by having 1/2 fewer units of Triarii, assuming that each unit of Triarii represents the Triarii of two Legions standing in one line.

you'll end up with having holes in your 3 line: 4x4x2, unless you deploy other unit types in places where triarii meant to be.

[konny]

you'll end up with having holes in your 3 line: 4x4x2, unless you deploy other unit types in places where triarii meant to be.

No.

                 Accensi  Accensi
              V e l i t e s   V e l i t e s

          Hastati Hastati Hastati Hastati
Eqvites                                          Pedites & Eqvites   Eqvites Consulares
Romani   Princip Princip Princip Princip       Extraordinarii          (Tribvn)

                   Triarii   Triarii

                 Eqvites Consvlares