Italian Tech Tree?

[Martok]

To address each of your points in order:

The one question that still stands out here...that would save me I don't know, 600 florins and a few years (chapter house) is: Would simply constructing a crusade out of a chapter house in Venice and then having it sit a turn in Rhodes be sufficient to get Hospitaller Knights that would eventually dismount to a +1 status, or do I have to actually have the Chapter House in Rhodes, with the Crusade originating in that point? (As MJF wrote)

Or- Am I still totally overcomplicating it and it's: Built Crusade....as units pop up in different provinces (is this how it's going to work?) hope that one of them is "Hospitaller Knights" originating in Rhodes? Then simply dismount them in battle?

Yes, you are overcomplicating things somewhat. That's okay, though; we're here to help. Here's how it works:

Any time you want your faction's particular Crusading Knights (Hospitaller, Santiago, Templar, or Tuetonic) to start with the +1 valour bonus, then your Crusade(s) must originiate in the province with that bonus. In other words, the French & English would need to launch future Crusades from Jerusalem to get v1 Templars, the Spanish/Aragonese need to launch Crusades from Leon to get v1 Knights of Santiago, and so on.

So in your specific case, you would need to launch all your Crusades from Malta in order for your Knights Hospitaller to start with the +1 valour bonus.

I mean indeed...it's almost, as Martok put it, as if the +1 is just useless...same with Ile de France, yeah. In vanilla, of course. It's just too much to go through for a +1, considering it's a provincial bonus. No bonus, just some pipe dream.

Not almost useless -- IS useless. Provinces with +1 valour bonuses to *any* kind of foot knights in vanilla MTW/VI do absolutely nothing. Rhode's bonus would only be worth anything if there was a specific unit called Hospitaller Foot Knights. Likewise, the bonus in Ile de France doesn't help unless someone were to specifically add Chivalric Foot Knights to the game.

It was only a minor oversight on CA's part that these bonuses were left in, but it's caused considerable confusion over the years -- such as now.

Additionally here:

Forget Foot Knights for a minute- I was always under the impression that a crusading army had to be in a province in order for Crusading troops to appear in that province. It almost seems as if it's being suggested (and hence the aforementioned question) that troops just pop up once a Crusade has been constructed by that faction...anywhere it has a province.

Which is the case...or is it...both?

A certain number of troops will sponaneously appear in the province from which the Crusade originates, but *only* in that province. However, you can deliberately add men to the Crusade as it passes through your lands, and troops from your regular units may automatically join the Crusade as well.


Perhaps I can better explain this by giving you an example. Let's say I'm playing a Spanish campaign -- which is common for me -- and that I want to launch a Crusade against the Almohads, with the specific goal of taking Morocco from them. And for this particular scenario, we'll say that I already own the Iberian peninsula. Here's how it would go down:

I'll build a Chapter House in Leon (after first building a Keep and a Church, of course). I then train a Crusade marker there. Once I feel I'm ready, I pick up the Crusade marker and drop it on the province of Morocco; a message will pop up verifying whether I wish to Crusade there, and that I must pay a certain amount to do so. Once I've confirmed Morocco as my Crusade's destination, the Crusade marker will be back in Leon....but now it will have turned into an army stack as well, with usually around 300-500 men. With a certain amount of luck, at least some of these troops will be Knights of Santiago, along with some Order Foot, and probably a certain number of Fanatics. All of these units are "free" (aside from what I paid to launch the Crusade in the first place) -- they don't cost me any money to train or maintain, so long as they're part of the Crusade's army stack.

Now what I'll do is begin moving the Crusade stack towards Morocco, one province at a time. As the Crusade proceeds southward from Leon, it may pick up and/or lose troops along the way, depending on the zeal of my provinces as it passes through. (Note: If my Crusade picks up troops along the way, that usually means that a lot of my regular army "defected" to the Crusade -- this is something you need to be prepared and watch out for.) In addition, I'll often purposefully drag & drop troops onto the Crusade as it passes to further augment it's strength. (Hey, I don't have to pay my men if they're on Crusade, so why not? )

After several turns, the Crusade will reach Morocco. I may or may not have to fight to take it, depending on whether the Almohads decide to give battle or simply flee. Once the province is mine, the Crusade "disbands" into regular army stacks (whom I now have to start paying again). Any surviving Crusading units -- Fanatics, Order Foot, or Knights of Santiago -- will remain part of my army, although they still cannot be trained.



So that's how a typical Crusade goes (and Jihads as well, by the way). I hope my explanation helped.

[ArtistofWarfare]

I definitely have it understood completely now...thank you to Martok, Bamff, Macsen Rufus, MJF...all of you.

This IS how I understood it in the past...it's just that my newfound information hunt on MTW now that I'm playing again has caused a few bees to buzz around in my head.

This does help a lot though...

I didn't want to wind up with Chapter Houses sitting in places for no good reasonm, or for the wrong reason.

Malta will absolutely be my Crusade launcher once I get it...

Which actually, coincides perfectly with my military planning right now.

(I'll do some writing later, but in that campaign I'm having it looks like I'll be invading Sicily quite soon here).

[caravel]

Not almost useless -- IS useless. Provinces with +1 valour bonuses to *any* kind of foot knights in vanilla MTW/VI do absolutely nothing.

I've lost count of the number of times I've read people posting along the lines of:

"build CKs in Ile de France and dismount them in battle to get +1 valour CFKs!!!!!!111!!11"

How they've reached the conclusion that the dismounted units actually get this bonus is any ones guess...

As Martok has put it, these are useless valour bonuses that were left in place by the developers whom had obviously intended to include foot knights as a trainable unit then resolved to leave them as dismounted units.

[Ravencroft]

Agreed. The foot knight bonus is entirely useless. Unless...

Like me, you use gnome to modify the game to either remove the valour bonus like transferring ile de France's bonus to CMAAs or to make them buildable like in the case of Hospitaller and Gothic Foot Knights( both need a swordswmith's guild, and both are restricted to certain factions). heheh...

[caravel]

You can indeed make them trainable though the cost and build requirements need to be pretty high and the unit size needs tweaking. Personally in the case of CFKs I think they should be in only 20 scalable units with their current stats. Anything higher and they are far too deadly.